Impact of a second author undergraduate publication for PhD Chemistry applications!

[Li-S]

What is the impact of a second author undergraduate publication for PhD Chemistry applications? Can it circumvent a low GPA of 3.0 (a B average) when applying to some schools let's say ranked 25-50? My Q GRE is 170, and Chemistry GRE 830. Basically I am interested in materials chemistry like thermoelectric materials, batteries, etc. I'm applying in Fall 2012 for enrollment in Fall 2013. Can anyone help me out? What would my safeties be? I heard in graduate school applications, it is hard to define a safety. So far, I only have 1 publication.

[ah233]

well publications in undergrad definitely will strengthen your apps ...... but it also matters how good are the letters from research supervisors and how well you document your research experience in your SOP ..... and if you browse the chemistry forum you will find out that lot of applicants have got admitted in great schools even without publications .....

I heard in graduate school applications, it is hard to define a safety

and you will soon find out it is difficult to define anything in grad apps ....

[Faraday]

From what I have read it is generally not expected that undergraduates will have publications when applying straight out of their undergraduate institution. You can think of it as a "bonus", but as ah233 said your letters of reccomendation will be what ultimately speaks about your potential as a PhD candidate.

[TakeruK]

A second author publication is great since not many will have that, but it's not likely that you will be the only applicant with publication(s). You should be clear in specifying what role you played / how you contributed to that project in your statement of purpose (SOP) -- did you do the lab work? did you write the paper? did you do the analysis? Reviewers will be also interested in what your supervisor for this project writes in their letter of recommendation. The publication itself shows that you have worked on stuff that produced actual results, but they will be interested in how well you worked, and whether or not you would make a good researcher.

I don't think a single publication alone is enough to "circumvent" a low GPA because nothing is really clearly defined, there isn't a rubric that says a 3.X GPA is worth Y publications etc. A publication is a great thing to demonstrate your research ability/potential, which is valued by admission committees.

It might seem paradoxical that while people say that grad schools care a lot more about your research than your grades but then still care about your GPA. I think it's because they would want the focus of their program and their students to be research, but they want good GPA students so that they know you will not be struggling in their courses.

For defining safety schools, I found it useful to ask a mentor in your current department (your research supervisor perhaps) for suggestions on where to apply. Make sure you are getting their honest opinion though, and not someone who will say nice things to you to be encouraging or to avoid hurting your feelings. Get second or third opinions too. There are websites such as gradschoolshopper that might list average/median GPAs of admitted students, or you could look through Chemistry applicant profile threads (if they exist on gradcafe or elsewhere) to see what kind of profiles got into which schools.

But I think the most important factor in application is research fit. If you match up really well somewhere, you might end up getting into a higher ranked school that you might have originally thought. Or, a lower ranked school might actually have one of the best groups in your subfield. If in doubt, I would recommend applying to a whole range of rankings, rather than splitting the schools into safeties and not-safeties.

[cynder]

The weight your publication gets may also depend on where you apply. If you apply to a school with a group that is working on projects closely related to the work you published then I think your publication can be a deciding factor. Make sure to mention those groups that work in fields related to your publication in your SOP. I did something similar and it compensated for my non impressive GPA (tho Im international so it doesnt scale exactly), GRE scores were fine for Q/V/Chem.

On the other hand, if you apply to a school where noone will have read/heard of/understand your publication, it probably wont get much weight.

Im leaving out ranking here, because I dont think it matters that much in this case, it would be more about the fit.

[Li-S]

The weight your publication gets may also depend on where you apply. If you apply to a school with a group that is working on projects closely related to the work you published then I think your publication can be a deciding factor.

What are some examples of schools that consider a second author publication as a deciding factor? How would I go about finding this out?

[TakeruK]

Whether your publication will be THE deciding factor depends completely on who is in the admissions committee and who else is applying. If, by chance, there is another applicant with almost exactly the same details as you, but without the second-author publication, and they can only accept one of you, not both; then it's likely that your publication will be the deciding factor in your favour.

But, usually, it's never down to just one detail whether you get in or not. There is probably no quantitative way to determine how much of a difference any one component of your application makes. And even if every application gets a score out of 100 from the admissions committee, it's not like "if you get 80/100, you get in" because you are competing with other applicants. So, if everyone who applied also has second author publications then the publication will just help you not get cut, but doesn't give you an edge over other applicants. If you are the only one with any publications, then it will make your application look really strong. The reality will be some in-between state.

[cynder]

What are some examples of schools that consider a second author publication as a deciding factor? How would I go about finding this out?

Personally I went to visit a PI who I was interested in working with before the application season. We talked about the chances for admission and he mentioned that I had a good chance of getting accepted because of my publications (though first author). The PI was in the same subfield as me, I think thats is most important, otherwise they will probably not be very interested in your paper.

I wouldnt know of another way of finding out other than talking to faculty. Alltho I did notice that depending on the school they sometimes specifically ask for you to mention publications, sometimes they dont. I got accepted to the schools that asked to list publications, and got rejected by the only school that didnt ask. That may be coincidence, I dont know.

[Li-S]

Personally I went to visit a PI who I was interested in working with before the application season. We talked about the chances for admission and he mentioned that I had a good chance of getting accepted because of my publications (though first author). The PI was in the same subfield as me, I think thats is most important, otherwise they will probably not be very interested in your paper.

I wouldnt know of another way of finding out other than talking to faculty. Alltho I did notice that depending on the school they sometimes specifically ask for you to mention publications, sometimes they dont. I got accepted to the schools that asked to list publications, and got rejected by the only school that didnt ask. That may be coincidence, I dont know.

Personally I went to visit a PI who I was interested in working with before the application season. We talked about the chances for admission and he mentioned that I had a good chance of getting accepted because of my publications (though first author). The PI was in the same subfield as me, I think thats is most important, otherwise they will probably not be very interested in your paper.

I wouldnt know of another way of finding out other than talking to faculty. Alltho I did notice that depending on the school they sometimes specifically ask for you to mention publications, sometimes they dont. I got accepted to the schools that asked to list publications, and got rejected by the only school that didnt ask. That may be coincidence, I dont know.

When you went to visit the PI, was that PI at your undergraduate school or at least driving distance from your undergraduate school or hometown? I don't see any other way on how you can visit a PI in person.

[cynder]

When you went to visit the PI, was that PI at your undergraduate school or at least driving distance from your undergraduate school or hometown? I don't see any other way on how you can visit a PI in person.

I made an appointment to visit the lab when I was in the area, Im international so the distance is way too large otherwise.

Not saying that you should visit every lab you are interested in by the way! An email would work as well to find out if the publication matters. Just pick some labs you are interested in and send an email stating your interest with some information about yourself. You can ask in that email if they are considering taking new students. Or you can just apply and find out that way

[Li-S]

I made an appointment to visit the lab when I was in the area, Im international so the distance is way too large otherwise.

Not saying that you should visit every lab you are interested in by the way! An email would work as well to find out if the publication matters. Just pick some labs you are interested in and send an email stating your interest with some information about yourself. You can ask in that email if they are considering taking new students. Or you can just apply and find out that way

I made an appointment to visit the lab when I was in the area, Im international so the distance is way too large otherwise.

Not saying that you should visit every lab you are interested in by the way! An email would work as well to find out if the publication matters. Just pick some labs you are interested in and send an email stating your interest with some information about yourself. You can ask in that email if they are considering taking new students. Or you can just apply and find out that way

When I send out the email to ask how a second author publication can impact admissions, do I send it to the chair of the Chemistry Department, the Professor of Interest, or to someone else? Ideally, I would send it to the chair of admissions of the committee, but I heard they keep this information top secret as well as rotate admission committee members every year.

[prolixity]

When I send out the email to ask how a second author publication can impact admissions, do I send it to the chair of the Chemistry Department, the Professor of Interest, or to someone else? Ideally, I would send it to the chair of admissions of the committee, but I heard they keep this information top secret as well as rotate admission committee members every year.

You should email the dean of admissions, but be sure to CC the president of the university and the chair of the program to which you're applying, as well as the head of the financial aid office. For example, if you were applying to Harvard and wanted to know how your second-author publication might affect your chances of admission I'd email the following people; they'll be happy to mull over your important concerns:

Drew Faust

Eric Jacobsen

Dan Nocera

[Eigen]

When I send out the email to ask how a second author publication can impact admissions, do I send it to the chair of the Chemistry Department, the Professor of Interest, or to someone else? Ideally, I would send it to the chair of admissions of the committee, but I heard they keep this information top secret as well as rotate admission committee members every year.

Why in the world would you e-mail a department to ask how it would impact admissions?

A paper is helpful. How helpful varies from institution to institution, paper to paper, and year to year (based on competition), as well as person to person, based on the rest of your package.

No one can tell you anything more specific than that. Aside from that, what does it really matter? Do as much research and get on as many publications as you can- higher ranked pubs are better, higher authorship is better.

And in case you didn't get it, Prolixity was being *very* tongue in cheek. Hilariously so, but don't actually take the advice!

[syn2012]

I'm guessing you're an international student. I've noticed that international students put way too much stock in the importance of publications. Any papers you publish as an undergrad will help your application, but they're not at all necessary. And if I've learned one thing during the admissions process it's that there's no one factor that will give you an "in" at any given school; it's very hard to predict.

[HamedGharibi]

I am just wondering why there is still anyone who asks if one should have publication or not. Based on my research, almost all the people who apply to grad program have one or two publication. It is important. You should know how to publish your work. I have five published article in the best journals of my field and also a pending patent at USPTO. If you like you just can google my name as Hamed Gharibi. I have been recently graduated from MS.

[sareth]

Based on my research, almost all the people who apply to grad program have one or two publication.

Many of my friends/acquaintances/classmates (both in undergrad & at grad school) were accepted to multiple strong programs (some top-10 programs) with no publications. Publications are always a good thing, but they are not make-or-break.

[aberrant]

I am just wondering why there is still anyone who asks if one should have publication or not. Based on my research, almost all the people who apply to grad program have one or two publication. It is important. You should know how to publish your work. I have five published article in the best journals of my field and also a pending patent at USPTO. If you like you just can google my name as Hamed Gharibi. I have been recently graduated from MS.

I wouldn't give you a thumb-down for your post but when you said "almost all the people who apply to grad program have one or two publication", I believe it depends on the country, the competitiveness of the school, and most important of all ,the field/program that an applicant would apply for grad school. Some fields take years to squeeze out 1 publication, while other fields may take a lot less (A publication from my alma mater in organic synthesis was by an undergraduate after 3 months of work; another paper from my current school was published by a graduate student who was taking chemical structure - he published a paper in computation chemistry after 2 weeks of work.)

And just because one has a (or multiple) publication, that doesn't mean much if it has zero citation. (No disrespect to anyone here who falls into this category, tho.)

Edited September 15, 2012 by aberrant

[HamedGharibi]

I agree with those who say the value of a publication is important and citation is the indicator of the value. However, I do not have problem with that because total citation of my articles is over 10. The point which I was trying to say is that the universities want to have students whose research experience are acceptable and are able to handle some projects on their own. Publication shows the value of your work, the field of your interest, and an indicator of your passion to be a researcher. It is not just my idea, a lot of interviews with admission committee members are available and almost all of them subscribe to this idea that research experience and publication are the most important parts of an applicant. By the way, I did not want to insult to someone, I just wanted to say that the number of people who have strong research background is growing realy fast. So, do not just focus on GPA or GRE. You are competing with students who not only have good scores but also have strong research background. Let go of the past students, look at those who are willing to apply now! Before writing any answer to my post, please please please just google the importance of first author publication and research experience. Thank you

[Eigen]

I'll also comment that you're from Environmental Engineering, commenting on a thread in Chemistry.

Why would I google how important first author publications are, in my field when I've talked to my PI (who's on the admissions committee), and have seen first hand how important they're considered for applicants, post-docs, and faculty.

Publications are great, no one's doubting that, but "bad" publications can do more harm than good. You have to not only have a track record of publications, but also be able to talk about them, discuss future directions, etc. There's a lot of realization that publications, especially out of undergrad, have a lot to do with luck and timing. You may be great in the lab, and have had good research ideas, but just couldn't get them to work out in the time you had.

tl;dr: Research background is more important than just "publications". And a good track record of research projects coupled with strong letters and a good proposal for your work will get you as far, if not farther, than minor publications.

[SymmetryOfImperfection]

Here's what I've been told: if you have no publications and are a BS applicant, that's fine.

However if you already have your MS, then you should have publications. Also what direction in materials science do you want to do? Synthetic, physical or theoretical?

[Eigen]

I'll completely agree that you should have at least one solid publication from an MS. But then, it's not that common for someone in Chemistry to be applying to grad school with an MS, unless they're coming from another country.

[HamedGharibi]

Dear Eigen, please excuse me for posting in this thread, I did not know that I have to ask you first to permit me to make a post. You say that research is more important than publication but you do not even know that a good publication is the indicator of your work. If you had a paper published in a good journal I am sure you would have realized how hard it is to convince the editors and reviewers that your work is good and worthy of being published. You also say that why should you go and google that!!!!!!! Because by doing so you are able to read some interviews with the members of admission committee, so tell me why should I believe your idea when the professors say something else????? Also, if you knew the scientific way of writing you would have not asked such a question, because indicating some references for your view is realy important. My friend heard something from his friend that he also read from some where is like reading a fairy tale. Show me some references if you are so certain about yourself!!!!!!!

[Eigen]

Because "google it" is a citeable source? I am in the sciences, and I'm quite familiar with the concept of scientific writing. And I know that nowhere is it proper to cite "google it" as a source. I'm also well aware of the relative importance of primary vs secondary and tertiary sources. I consider reputable faculty and admissions committees that I've talked to reputable primary sources, and anonymous or pseudonymous data on the internet to be secondary, at best.

I've got several nice first author publications in top journals. As well as book chapters in some nice peer-reviewed book series. I'm well aware of the challenges. There's also a huge "luck" factor in publications, something that's very well acknowledged by everyone I've talked to in my field.

You seem to be having issues with my posts, and I'm not really sure why. I didn't indicate that you shouldn't post here, merely that you're commenting on a discipline that has quite different norms than yours, and you don't seem to be aware of it.

If you have some good, legitimate citations for the importance of publications in admission to Chemistry programs, I'd be quite interested to see them. Otherwise, I would prefer to trust the data I've gotten from people I personally know and trust, rather than anonymous or quasi-anonymous sources on the internet.

[aberrant]

Dear HamedGharibi,

This would be my last post in responding your relatively ignorant posts.

I did not know that I have to ask you first to permit me to make a post.

As far as my understanding, Eigen didn't say a single word on people outside of the field (in this case, Chemistry) should not make any comments. Maybe you should re-read what he wrote (or type, if that matters to you).

You say that research is more important than publication but you do not even know that a good publication is the indicator of your work. If you had a paper published in a good journal I am sure you would have realized how hard it is to convince the editors and reviewers that your work is good and worthy of being published.

1. What you failed to realize is that not all the applicants (especially those who apply with / soon-to-be a BS degree) have publications. I believe the general consensus here is if you are holding a bachelor / going to get your bachelor, it is OK to apply grad schools and get accepted without a pbulication. In other words, no publications do not hurt your chances, unless you were a MS student for some reason(s).

2. You say that "good publication is the indicator of your work". Well, how do you define by good? Without reading the paper itself, I would evaluate one paper based on its citation number and the publisher (which related to its impact factor.) I think that it is okay to publish in somewhere else other than Nature or Science, but I wouldn't say that a publication is "good" if that paper has not been cited by anyone in the world (or, cited for the author's argument).

3. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that you'll need to literally "convince" someone to publish your work if you work is good in the first place. I wouldn't draw a conclusion that "getting publish is hard" because it depends on a lot of things - it depends on the field of your research, how difficult it is to achieve your work, the significance of your work, the target audience of a particular journal, etc. Which is why I think #2 is important.

You also say that why should you go and google that!!!!!!! Because by doing so you are able to read some interviews with the members of admission committee, so tell me why should I believe your idea when the professors say something else?????

I think this statement is preposterous. Instead of search on google, why wouldn't you just send an e-mail to the DGS / program coordinator/director and ask about it? Besides, how many "interviews with the members of admission committee" can you find on google? If anything, shouldn't you say "FAQ" of the program admission website instead/? Also, when you say "the professors" -- who are they? Where are they come from? Did they say it to you, or you just read it somewhere else? I would LOVE to read what you have read -- iff you can post some links here.

My friend heard something from his friend that he also read from some where is like reading a fairy tale. Show me some references if you are so certain about yourself!!!!!!!

You, thus far, have not realized that Eigen is coming from a perspective of "former PhD applicant, current PhD student / candidate" in one of the Chemistry programs in the U.S. If I'm someone who come to this forum and seek for advice, I certainly respect and value comments from someone who have experience more than those who have yet to been through the application process.

Seeing some of the flaws in your logic, all I can say is: good luck in grad school application.

ps. Don't take your publication too seriously. I read one of yours with zero citation and I have to say that the one I read it's just basically a combination of an undergrad lab reports for 1 semester/quarter with bigger figures, fewer texts, missing units, organization/format, English, improper use of units abbreviation (format), improper use of units, inconsistent sig. fig., extra content that doesn't contribute to your studies and discussion.

pps. Don't take it personal. I just happened to read it after doing a bit of "google search".

ppps. I just read this: http://abechem.com/N...10, 165-177.pdf

pppps. Just came back from another "google search" and found that when you said "my publications has been cited more than 10 times", there is one of yours indeed cited by others 9 times but you were the second author instead of co-first author. On the other hand, one of the papers that you were the first author and cited once, was actually cited by yourself in another paper. Well, I think that's an improvement in any case. But again, don't take too much pride in it.

Best regards,

Buster "The Navigator is aberrant" Keaton

Edited September 21, 2012 by aberrant

[HamedGharibi]

Good for you, but I dont know how did you make some nice articles!!! Is not waste of time to publish? Please clarify yourself because it is odd!!! If you know that publication is not important that much so why did you bother yourself to publish some nice heavenly papers??? Each paper needs at least 5 months to be accepted, at least 5 months for lab works, at least 1 month to be written, am I right? if you disagree with my idea, so why did you go through such hard work to have nice publications?? Ok, I am completely wrong and you are right, but your CV is quite like mine!!!! It seems interesting??? And another question, if you ask your trust worthy friends and professors and base your view on what they say, so tell me why did not you listen to them? According to your comment it seems they do not want you to have several publications, yeah??? It is funny, isnt it? Several publications, chapter of books,etc., please accept my condolences because based on what you said having several publications is not so important and you have wasted your life!!!!! Think twice before speak once