Departments outside the Top 40 - useless?

[Ladril]

This topic intrigues me. Are the prospects of finding a job if you don't come from a top 40 sociology program really that dim? Is it a waste of time to apply to them? Please discuss. Experience from people in those programs is especially welcome.

[ThisSlumgullionIsSoVapid]

I wouldn't say they're a waste of time to apply to (though it could depend on how strong of an application you have and/or if you care to re-apply multiple seasons). It also depends on what your goals are after your PhD. It isn't going to be any easier trying to find a job at a R1 university but there are ways to compensate. If you're looking for a job in the private sector then the prestige from the university hierarchy matters less.

*Obviously, people will have different opinions and this is coming from someone who landed outside a top 40 but it seems to be a general 'not necessarily' answer that I've been given when I've asked the same questions before.

Edited April 17, 2012 by ThisSlumgullionIsSoVapid

[sociologygradgirl]

I don't think schools outside of the top 40 are a waste at all. The school you attend undeniably matters- but so does the research you produce and your mentor. If a school outside of the top matches your research goals and you have several people there to work with, then apply! I think it would be better to go to a #50 and publish 5 articles with well respected scholars than go to #30 without a lot of support and end up with few or no publications.

My MA program was at a R1 and I saw the hiring of three people. Two came from great schools. One came from a completely unranked public university but with 7 publications, a grant, and a notable mentor. So it's not impossible outside of the top 40. Especially if you find a great fit that will help you get a lot done while you are there.

[Darth.Vegan]

I think it depends on whether one wants a full-time tenure track job or not. That's not to say that it's impossible to get a tenure track job outside the top 40, but it does get exceedingly difficult.

[giacomo]

Out of curiosity, how would you guys put the following variables in order of importance in landing a job out of grad school:

- publication

- quality (rank?) of your school

- letters of recommendation

- other (please specify)

I guess I'd put them in this order, but I'm not even in grad school yet, so what do I know? (and I can't even think of a fourth one.)

EDIT: Oops, sorry, this is kind of off-topic.

Edited April 17, 2012 by giacomo

[Darth.Vegan]

Giacomo, I agree with that. Except that in certain cases lack of prestige can hamper you even more depending how much it is lacking. I have seen PhD's in Poli Sci from my school get stuck in visiting positions (and not just for 1-2 years), or having to take tenure track jobs in Africa because they didn't get any other tenure track offers. In the visiting professor case, he has connections with very well known people in the field and as of yet has not gotten a tenure track offer. I'm hoping his luck will change this year, he is quite brilliant.

Outside of job placement factors, I really don't care about prestige. There are brilliant people doing really great research in programs up and down the rankings and at unranked programs. For job placement however it does matter, and I am not talking about placement at prestigious schools, im simply talking about tenure track placement anywhere. The other thing are the resources available to grad students, generally speaking the higher ranked programs have more resources research wise than lower ranked ones, although there is some variation between public vs private as well obviously.

Edit: Also, I guess I also just want to feel that all the work i've done was justified! I decided to spend an extra year gaining research experience, have kept an almost impeccable GPA, honors thesis and I am on track to graduate with high or highest honors. I am somewhat embarrassed to say this, but I guess I just need to feel validated to some degree. I know that is kind of stupid, but that is just me being as honest as possible.

Edited April 17, 2012 by xdarthveganx

[sociologo]

I think I'd be okay with a tenure-track job in Africa.

[Darth.Vegan]

I think I'd be okay with a tenure-track job in Africa.

The electricity goes out for 4-8 hours everyday and there was threat of civil war recently. No thanks.

[sociologo]

Eh I'm okay with no electricity. I like rural areas and enjoy rural sociology. If there wasn't instability of some kind, apparently a civil war in this case, there wouldn't be very much for us to study in sociology. However, I don't think an entire continent can have a civil war.

Oh right this is about ranked programs. I hope they don't matter. I didn't even bother to look at rankings when deciding which programs to apply to. Shows how important I thought that was.

[sociologyplease]

The electricity goes out for 4-8 hours everyday and there was threat of civil war recently. No thanks.

Africa is a pretty big place, fyi. There are a lot of different experiences and conditions in that huge continent. Many sociologists find lumping the whole continent of Africa together pretty offensive and inaccurate. Also, your comments make it sound like "Africa" is a savage and undeveloped place, which fits into the white, colonial and imperialistic narrative of Africa that has shown to be highly problematic.

[Darth.Vegan]

Africa is a pretty big place, fyi. There are a lot of different experiences and conditions in that huge continent. Many sociologists find lumping the whole continent of Africa together pretty offensive and inaccurate. Also, your comments make it sound like "Africa" is a savage and undeveloped place, which fits into the white, colonial and imperialistic narrative of Africa that has shown to be highly problematic.

Ummm, I was not referring to Africa as a whole. I simply did not specify where to protect the privacy of the individual involved. You are jumping to HUGE conclusions based on spurious assumptions about my intentions.

[The_Epicure]

Out of curiosity, how would you guys put the following variables in order of importance in landing a job out of grad school:

- publication

- quality (rank?) of your school

- letters of recommendation

- other (please specify)

According tho the folks over at orgtheory, program prestige is the most important factor, with some nuances:

http://orgtheory.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/how-to-choose-a-graduate-program/

[Karlito]

Africa is a pretty big place, fyi. There are a lot of different experiences and conditions in that huge continent. Many sociologists find lumping the whole continent of Africa together pretty offensive and inaccurate. Also, your comments make it sound like "Africa" is a savage and undeveloped place, which fits into the white, colonial and imperialistic narrative of Africa that has shown to be highly problematic.

Your condescending antiracism 101 post was completely unnecessary. read DarthVegan's post correctly before lecturing us (on things we all know here, thanks).

[obsessovernothing]

the post in these forums tend to end on fairly aggressive terms and i think this my deter people from posting... sometimes it is not what you say, but rather how you say it. i feel as though i can contribute to this question, because i meet the criteria of xdarthvegansx original question, but am hesitant to share it because of the negative connotation people have within these post, and fear of saying something to the misliking of another and being reprimanded. for instance,

Your condescending antiracism 101 post was completely unnecessary. read DarthVegan's post correctly before lecturing us (on things we all know here, thanks).

i can't help to ask myself ask myself was this quote really necessary? after all, xdarthveganx did make a generalized statement about africa:

The electricity goes out for 4-8 hours everyday and there was threat of civil war recently. No thanks.

.

i think we need to bare in mind that people here come from various backgrounds. what we say may offend people, so be mindful of this before making a contribution to a forum. the hostility here is really starting to bother me. i think we should be working together, helping one another through this process, rather than subtly putting each other down.

i am sorry for the rant, but this has been bothering me for awhile. also, my post is not directed towards anyone in particular, so please, even if i have quoted you, do not take this personally.

[Ladril]

According tho the folks over at orgtheory, program prestige is the most important factor, with some nuances:

http://orgtheory.wor...aduate-program/

I'm familiar with the points made by the orgtheory folks. However, I think we can benefit from different perspectives as well. This is why I started this thread: to hear from people who have had productive careers outside of departments conventionally considered to be the best ones.

I think sociologygradgirl and a few others hit the nail on the head. Going to a top 20 department gives you much more social capital than the rest (and going to a top 10 yet more than going to one in the 11-20 range). But I'm also aware of people who went to less prestigious universities and still managed to land jobs at R1 institutions. It all boils down to a combination of doing good work, learning to network, and luck (in this profession, you're going to need a lot of luck even if you go to a top 10). Going to a department outside the top 40 is far from a death sentence.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Ladril

[sociologyplease]

Ummm, I was not referring to Africa as a whole. I simply did not specify where to protect the privacy of the individual involved. You are jumping to HUGE conclusions based on spurious assumptions about my intentions.

Sorry if it sounded hostile or condescending. Your statement did read to me as regarding Africa as a whole (with the "there" you referred to), but apologies as this wasn't your intent. Describing having to get a tenure track job in Africa as a terrible thing rubbed me the wrong way, but I don't want to create a hostile environment.

[Darth.Vegan]

Sorry if it sounded hostile or condescending. Your statement did read to me as regarding Africa as a whole (with the "there" you referred to), but apologies as this wasn't your intent. Describing having to get a tenure track job in Africa as a terrible thing rubbed me the wrong way, but I don't want to create a hostile environment.

The point was that you may be looking for tenure track jobs in very unfamiliar places if you get a PhD from less known program. While some people may be fine with that, I would personally rather have more options not less. It's one thing to choose to take a job in a particular place for xyz reason, it's another to be forced to take one because you don't have any other choice. Also no, my "there" was clearly very specific. I am friends with the individual I was referring to and get regular updates. These weren't just "speculations about Africa" but very specific things that happened to a very specific person, in a very specific university in a very specific country in Africa. If you actually read my original post on the topic you would realize that instead of just jumping into some condescending rant. You're barking up the wrong tree here, I more than understand the politics of colonization, not to mention the fact that I currently live somewhere that continues to be illegally occupied by the United States.

Edited April 18, 2012 by xdarthveganx

[ThisSlumgullionIsSoVapid]

not to mention the fact that I currently live somewhere that continues to be illegally occupied by the United States.

You mean the whole United States wasn't illegally occupied by the United States?

[sociologyplease]

Also no, my "there" was clearly very specific. I am friends with the individual I was referring to and get regular updates. These weren't just "speculations about Africa" but very specific things that happened to a very specific person, in a very specific university in a very specific country in Africa. If you actually read my original post on the topic you would realize that instead of just jumping into some condescending rant. You're barking up the wrong tree here, I more than understand the politics of colonization, not to mention the fact that I currently live somewhere that continues to be illegally occupied by the United States.

I indeed read the whole post before commenting the first time, but the reason it sounded like you were referring to Africa as a whole is that you quoted someone who said they wouldn't mind getting a job "in Africa" and responded with a vague "there," indicating that you were responding directly to that person's statement about the whole continent of Africa. Though it may have been an intentional "there," referring to the university that your friend works at, it didn't appear that way to me. If you are well-versed in anti-colonial works, which I'm sure you are, I trust you have had more than one encounter with the narrative of Africa as one big, savage land as opposed to a continent made up of very different countries, cultures, and experiences. Your original statement seemed to fit into that narrative, and once I found out that you didn't mean that, I apologized. I think your continued defensive tone, despite my apology and your original ambiguous statement, is unnecessary. I understand your statement was more specific than it appeared to me, and I thank you for clearing that up for me.

Edited April 18, 2012 by sociologyplease

[Darth.Vegan]

You mean the whole United States wasn't illegally occupied by the United States?

True, but the specifics of Hawaii are very different. I can tell you that the sovereignty movement does like not being lumped into the whole native american narrative. I learned that the hard way when I got here.

[moraurora]

i think sociologyplease is right. if no need to lecture you on things you all know, then act like you know those things.

[Ladril]

13 out of 21 posts completely outside the original topic of the thread (or mostly not about it). Time to get back on track, guys and gals.

[obsessovernothing]

Hi Ladril,

Sorry for the digression earlier. I hope you'll accept my apologies.

Okay, so I think that your original question requires further elaboration on your part. You say what are the prospects of finding a job, but you don't mention the type of job you are aiming for (unless I missed it, and again I am sorry). Do you mind sharing what your career goals are and research interest? I think that these things matter in what type of program you may want to shoot for. For instance, I do not intend on staying within academia, so my motives for choosing a department are going to be different than someone who does. Also, my research interest are such that not many departments have faculty in this field. Therefore, my scope of programs may be wider than an area where every department has faculty doing research in such and such field. Does this make sense? My top choice was a top fifty program (and if you want to merely go by ranking, it was the lowest program I was accepted), but because of a particular faculty member doing research in my area of interest, among other things, it was my dream school. It turns out that I was not offered funding from this school, so by default I am going to a top twenty. For me, ranking did not matter as much as it may for others, but, of course, it was something I considered, though not the sole thing.

If you share with us your career goals and research interests, perhaps more people can offer you advice. On that note, bare in mind that this is only my experience and others may vary.

Thanks!

Edited April 19, 2012 by waiting*it*out

[Ladril]

If you share with us your career goals and research interests, perhaps more people can offer you advice. On that note, bare in mind that this is only my experience and others may vary.

Thanks. I already have been accepted to a great program, so I did not start this thread in order to obtain information for myself. I can, however, share some experience for other people's benefit. One of the programs I applied to was outside the Top 40. This was a conscious strategy since I needed to maximize my chances of admission this year (at the risk of losing the Fulbright). What I did was to look for a department with a good thematic fit. The one I applied to, despite its rank, had several researchers who have collaborated with people in Top 20 institutions. I also had a prospective advisor there who I'm sure would have been great for me. And despite what other people have suggested in this forum, if that had been my only acceptance I would have gone there and am sure I would have had a great time.

Of course, my situation is not like that of everyone else. I already have a masters degree, can run advanced statistical models, and am knowledgeable about the main debates in my specialty. For me getting a PhD is more about credentials and the ability to build more social networks. This will most likely not be the approach of somebody applying to a PhD fresh out of undergrad who has not had as much time to devote to a research topic.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Ladril

[ThisSlumgullionIsSoVapid]

While on this subject, does anyone know of any programs that routinely (or maybe have recent individuals) that have placed a job in a program of higher (or maybe even equivalent) ranked university than the one they attended? One of my advisers did this (and landed at my university from a lower ranked one) but she had a specific reason for going to the lower ranked program she went to and also had significant research experience outside of academia.

Edited April 19, 2012 by ThisSlumgullionIsSoVapid