Do you ever wonder if you should have cast your net a bit wider?

[Sparrowing]

I am Canadian and completed my MA at a Canadian school. During the program, many of my professors and colleagues encouraged me to apply to top-10 American schools for the PhD. I didn't. There were a few reasons: a long-term, non-student partner who probably doesn't qualify for either TN1 or H1B, and not enough time to write the GRE without waiting another cycle. I received great offers from all of the Canadian schools I applied to, and the department I chose ranks within the global top-10 in my discipline. Don't get me wrong; I feel privileged to have received the offers I did and I'm excited about the program. But part of me might always wonder about alternatives. Even a couple rejections would have been instructive. Here in Canada there's lots of chatter about how American grads get more recognition, more job offers. Is anyone else in a similar situation?

[ktel]

I also had no interest in applying to American schools, or schools outside of Toronto for that matter. I applied within Toronto to stay with my partner. And I applied within Canada because I had no interest in writing the GRE or anything like that. It just seemed a lot easier to apply within Canada. If I were to do a PhD I might reconsider, but at the moment I just want to get my Master's done and then get some industry experience, and a Canadian degree should be more than enough for what I need. Not to bash my current department either, they are well recognized.

[TakeruK]

I was in your exact situation 2 years ago when I finished my BSc. I had a long term relationship but we were still unmarried (thus she couldn't go to the US as a dependent on my student visa and she also would not have qualified for the visas you mentioned), I did horrendous on the subject GRE (didn't even bother to write the General GRE after that score), and it was a lot easier to stay in Canada because it was the first time living away from home for both my girlfriend-at-the-time and I (although we ended up further from our hometown than where we will be for my PhD!). So the best choice for us was clearly a Canadian school.

When I was applying, I felt 100% sure I wanted to stay in Canada forever. But by the time I graduated from undergrad, I realised that I really did like the field I'm in and felt a bit of regret for not applying to US programs. However, those thoughts were quickly squashed when I realised what I said in the above paragraph.

But we then decided the best choice is to finish a MSc here in Canada and then apply to US PhD programs. Sure, Canadian Masters aren't really recognized in the US -- I'd basically start at year 1 again but with considerable experience under my belt. But during the masters I can...

1. Get married (did that last summer! yay!)

2. Get more research experience to improve my chances of getting into a good US school

3. "test out" research/grad school before committing 5 more years of our life and moving to a new country

4. Have time to get research from my last year of undergrad (when I started doing Planetary Science research) published -- this work wouldn't even have been finished when I had submitted my applications 2 years ago

I also had other factors that "helped" make the decision to go to a US PhD program. Firstly, I started with the intention of finishing with a Masters and going elsewhere for PhD so both my supervisor and I knew the plan (in the end, it turns out he plans to retire before I would finish a PhD anyways, so win-win). Secondly, Planetary Science is really tiny in Canada so I really needed to go to the US to actually learn more after my MSc (the program I'm in is great but my supervisor is the only person working on the topic!). Finally, my wife and I decided that I would pretty much only apply to the top programs in the US -- it's not worth all the extra hassle of moving countries if I'm not going to be in a really good program.

In the end, it seems like everything worked out really well for us. I'm going to be finishing my masters this summer and then going to a great PhD program in the US

It also helped that if you get funding, you can qualify for a J-1 student visa, which puts a spouse on a J-2 and J-2 dependents are allowed to apply for a work authorization and be able to get employment in the US (not the case if you have a F-1 visa). The most important part though was that my wife agreed and supported this plan!

Basically I just wanted to say that a 1-2 year Canadian masters could be a great lead-in to a US PhD, if that is what you truly want. Some people still think I should have gone right to a US PhD but I definitely think doing a Masters first was the right decision for me!

[Sparrowing]

Well, I'm already at the PhD stage and it looks like I'll be staying in Canada. The thing is, my partner is self-employed and would have to take a big paycut if he were to have to find employment at someone else's company. And I mean, I got a great funding package here and could possibly get ok funding in the US too, but even the biggest student salary is low, with no guarantee of lucrative post-grad employment. I don't know. It's just all the what-ifs. (And, takeruK, congrats on getting married!)

[nimo6211]

I am Canadian and completed my MA at a Canadian school. During the program, many of my professors and colleagues encouraged me to apply to top-10 American schools for the PhD. I didn't. There were a few reasons: a long-term, non-student partner who probably doesn't qualify for either TN1 or H1B, and not enough time to write the GRE without waiting another cycle. I received great offers from all of the Canadian schools I applied to, and the department I chose ranks within the global top-10 in my discipline. Don't get me wrong; I feel privileged to have received the offers I did and I'm excited about the program. But part of me might always wonder about alternatives. Even a couple rejections would have been instructive. Here in Canada there's lots of chatter about how American grads get more recognition, more job offers. Is anyone else in a similar situation?

I would have liked to as well (MA). Unfortunately, one of my recommenders made such a big deal about the bureaucracy of requirements from the Universities that it made me realize that it was an imposition. He even recommended that I limit my applications to 3 instead of the 10 I wanted to apply to. Fortunately, I was accepted to at least one, waiting to hear from another and the third one declined my application on the basis of incomplete documents.....they did not get my fall transcript on time....which is fine as I got into UChicago which was my first choice. SJSU was my third choice.

[surefire]

I am Canadian and completed my MA at a Canadian school. During the program, many of my professors and colleagues encouraged me to apply to top-10 American schools for the PhD. I didn't. There were a few reasons: a long-term, non-student partner who probably doesn't qualify for either TN1 or H1B, and not enough time to write the GRE without waiting another cycle. I received great offers from all of the Canadian schools I applied to, and the department I chose ranks within the global top-10 in my discipline. Don't get me wrong; I feel privileged to have received the offers I did and I'm excited about the program. But part of me might always wonder about alternatives. Even a couple rejections would have been instructive. Here in Canada there's lots of chatter about how American grads get more recognition, more job offers. Is anyone else in a similar situation?

Hi there U of T friend!

I'm starting to come around to the idea that second-guessing app decisions accompanies the gravity of the occasion!

Every choice I made is buffeted by a trail of correspondence with trusted friends/faculty and a litany of neurotic pro/con lists; in documenting the application journey, I can actually re-visit my thinking and rationales, and I realize that the narrative - and my final destination - makes sense in this context!

Like ktel, not only did I not apply outside of Canada, I didn't apply outside of Toronto. The decision was deliberate and steeped in prior plans and commitments. My partner is in a specialized program in the city. When I convocated from my MA in October of 2010 (and he had 3 years to go for his degree), we decided that I would work for the completion of his degree (fair's fair, he won the bread during my MA). I figured that I could try my hand at some "real world" work in policy development, pay down my debt, and make an informed decision about pursuing the PhD. If I decided to pursue a PhD, my app season would be Fall 2012, so that I would start a program right after he finished his!

But, after a year and a bit of working, I couldn't wait, so we compromised: I'd have a go at apps in the city in 2011 and if it didn't go well, I'd "cast a wider net", if you will, in the previously designated 2012 season.

Aaaand, then the season went really well! I woke up one day and sort of loved Toronto; after almost two years of living here and feeling ambivalent about it or worrying about turning into a cold city-dweller because of occasionally wanting to harm people in the subway for walking too slowly in front of me, I found that I could suddenly picture living here long-term. Not only that, I discovered that U of T wasn't the stuffy behemoth I thought it was and I could also picture myself IN a department there! And then they sent me an offer, and I was stoked! I'm so grateful that I had the opportunity to (re)discover this city and the academic opportunities here; I might not have seen it without the scrutinizing focus, and I might not have had this tight focus if I had cast a wider net!

It's funny, my situation is a little different from yours. I'm not really regretting not looking south of the border, but part of that is because the specialization of my discipline is better served here AND I wasn't interested in the cost AND I didn't have any advisors/faculty/friends nudging me in that direction. I did pine briefly for some BC schools with intriguing restorative justice elements, but I'm quite happy to align myself with the exceptional program/resources/awesomeness of U of T! For my discipline, U of T is top-notch and the department's placement rate internationally is spectacular, so I can choose to boot around with the name recognition after (if that's a similar perk for your department, that should assauge your "what if"s slightly...)

Ultimately, like me, there wasn't really a "bad" decision for you. Being accepted across the board, I think, compounds the hypothetical self-interrogation (I'm not trying to be presumptuous and I'm NOT complaining about having no rejections, of course, I'm just saying that it might've skewed our perception of the app process/opportunities out there)

Let yourself mourn the "could-have-beens" (the offers you declined and the ones that you didn't seek out); and best of luck!

I also had no interest in applying to American schools, or schools outside of Toronto for that matter. I applied within Toronto to stay with my partner. And I applied within Canada because I had no interest in writing the GRE or anything like that. It just seemed a lot easier to apply within Canada. If I were to do a PhD I might reconsider, but at the moment I just want to get my Master's done and then get some industry experience, and a Canadian degree should be more than enough for what I need. Not to bash my current department either, they are well recognized.

Your advice is always so pragmatic ktel! Thanks for sharing!

Edited April 18, 2012 by surefire

[Sparrowing]

Wow surefire, thanks for such a detailed response! I'm not going to quote since it was a long post, but it's great to know that Toronto has grown on you. This was one of the things I was uncertain about since I'm not too familiar with the city. I've been living in the Northeast for a while now, and the climate has also been a bit of an adjustment. I sometimes dream of moving to California or back to BC, where I'm from. (Post-doc maybe?) If you have any tips on life in TO I'd be happy to hear them!

You're absolutely right about the effects of across-the-board acceptances. While I know that future admissions would be in no way guaranteed (and who knows, maybe I just got lucky this time!), there's certainly always that feeling of 'what if' that comes with not having tested your limits. My department at U of T is highly regarded in my discipline, I think; it ranks within the top 10 internationally and has a consistently good placement rate. I have a relative who finished her PhD in my exact field a couple years ago, and she has glowing things to say about the post-grad support network and the drive of the department to get their grads placed well and quickly.

Like you, I was also balancing the needs of my SO. It's tough, right? But as you say -- a lot of contentment in life comes from a sense of having pieced that narrative together. And the main piece of advice I've been hearing from people is that it's what you do AFTER the decision that makes it the right one.

I'm sure that the anxiety of all the what-if's will dissipate once my program has begun.

[ktel]

I also had across-the-board acceptances (as in multiple professors offering), and have DEFINITELY thought "what-if" during particularly difficult periods. I have to reason with myself that the beginning of any grad program with any group or supervisor would be difficult. I'm pretty happy where I am, and Toronto has definitely grown on me. I grew up in Alberta, so the climate is a nice change (warmer and not as dry). What has helped a lot is my rugby playing career has really taken off since I moved here. The odd time I get really down about my program/the city I remember that I would have never been able to do what I've done so far in my sport if I hadn't moved here.

[Sparrowing]

Not to switch topics, but is Toronto tough at first? When people say that it has grown on them, does that mean that it doesn't have much initial appeal?

[ktel]

I think Toronto has a lot of appeal, I just think it would have taken time for ANY new place to grow on me, as I missed my family and friends a lot when I moved. I think it's a city just like any other, lots of good things and lots of bad things about it.

[SeriousSillyPutty]

[i'm not informed on this subject, and yet I'm posting anyway. Geeze... I am such a stereotypical American.]

If you're talking to the average American student, it's true that Canadian schools don't have the name recognition that Oxford or Harvard have, but what we (generic Americans) know is fairly irrelevant anyway. With PhDs, isn't is mostly about the specific program and professor? It seems to me that if you're hoping for a job in academia, anyone in your field on either side of the border would be familiar with the quality of U of T's program. If you're planning on a job of industry, there's probably enough in Canada that you wouldn't have to move unless you wanted to.

But I think I get your feeling about casting a wider net. I had no doubt in my mind that I wanted to stay in my current city, so I only applied to one program -- and got in, thankfully. But then I'd go to the forums for others in my field and see them debate which of these top programs to go to, and it did make me wonder if, under different life circumstances, I could have got in to those. But then I think about the relational/community changes I would have to make, and I'm glad I'm here. (And I'm glad I didn't waste money applying to schools I knew I wouldn't go to.)

As a complete aside, one reason I am jealous of those in Toronto is that you are that much closer to Stratford, ON, which is on my top 5 list of best places ever. Their festival is so phenomenal that I think even people who don't typically do theatre should make a go of it. I'm from the Detroit area so I used to go quite often with my mom, but now that I live 10 hours from the border that doesn't happen so often. :-( Stratford is a cute little town with lots of B&Bs and hotels, making it a great weekend getaway. Or you could probably leave early, hit a matinee, and get back to Toronto at a reasonable hour. And their productions are SO GOOD. Plus Toronto puts you close to the Great Lakes, which are gorgeous.

Best of luck!

Edited April 19, 2012 by SeriousSillyPutty

[emmm]

Another US student here -- for family reasons, I could only apply in one city, and I was fine with that. It's not always possible to turn your life completely upside down and move.

[CarlieE]

I think they'll always be a sort of "buyers remorse" or "fork in the road" sort of anxiety.. I applied to only US schools and I wonder how the situation might have been different if I had applied at European or Australian universities. Some of my professors felt really strongly that I should apply overseas while others cited reasons not to ie. they aren't always accredited in the US and so if I look for a job here after my PhD I might run into a problem or be considered less.... credible? I don't know - something like that.

To be fair, I think we always get feelings like this after any kind of "big purchase" ie. when I bought a house, I wondered for months afterward about the Other House I didn't make an offer on... Or would I have been happier with the PS3 instead of the Xbox? Seems silly, but I think with grad school the feelings are just amplified because of the massive stress of applying and all that.

[TakeruK]

Well, I'm already at the PhD stage ...

Ooops, totally didn't read your first sentence there, sorry! Sounds like you are making the right choice though.

Someone (in another thread on gradcafe maybe?) said that there is always going to be "buyers remorse" after deciding on a grad school because no matter how good the school you pick is, it's probably not as good as all the possibilities combined! We had some doubts about actually moving to the US for PhD too -- maybe we'll be happier if I just didn't bother getting into academia and just got "real jobs" in Vancouver (where we're from) instead? Even if my wife can eventually get work authorization, our total income will be lower and slow down our plans to save up for a home, start a family etc.

But then I realised that all the what-ifs are getting in the way of enjoying the present. We've all worked hard to get to where we are and now we have some good opportunities ahead of us. Also, I'm sure during our Bachelors and Masters degrees, we have made hard choices too, some good, and probably some bad ones but we made it this far, didn't we? We can probably trust ourselves that we are continuing to make the right decision here too!

PS I always wondered if getting the Wii was the right choice, given the lack of games where my wife and I can go shoot down some zombies together, but then after playing something like the new Zelda game (omg one-to-one motion control with Link!!) or Ravin' Rabbids, I know we made the right choice! I think we might have less what-ifs once our program of choice actually gets underway!

Edited April 19, 2012 by TakeruK

[ktel]

I think we might have less what-ifs once our program of choice actually gets underway!

But fully expect the what-ifs to come back when the going really gets tough. Only natural.

[Behavioral]

I decided to apply around mid-November before even having taken the GMAT (business PhD programs prefer the GMAT over the GRE) and missed out on some key deadlines to some of the schools I would have liked to apply to. It's hard to say if I would have chosen any of them over my current program (it was my top choice among the schools I met deadlines for), but other peripheral features besides just school fit/quality would have come into play (e.g., me choosing Stanford over Northwestern for climate's sake).

[juilletmercredi]

I was sort of limited by my perception of my cumulative ugrad GPA as low (it was a 3.4 - but I had a higher major GPA, and only realized how important that was in retrospect). Besides, I was straddling two fields. One of my fields, public health, usually requires a master's degree before entering a PhD program. So my original plan was to get an MPH and then apply to doctoral programs in both public health and social psychology. But on a whim, I applied to a hybrid social psych and public health PhD program.

To my surprise, I was admitted. When I told my advisor this story later, he seemed very surprised, and told me that I would've been a very competitive candidate at other PhD programs in social psych right out of the box. So sometimes I wish I had applied more widely to other social psych programs - but then I realize I would've ended up here anyway, because this program was perfectly suited to my needs. And I love it.