Am I qualified to prusue PhD in ed? And is it worth it?

[tron]

Hey there,

I've been idly looking at a few PhD program websites, but can't seem to find information about how they determine who is a strong candidate for admission and who is not. I'm a few years away from applying, if I do, but am ready to start deciding if it's a realistic and worthwhile goal for me, so I can start to plan accordingly.

I currently work in an administrative position at a research institute that does some work on education policy, and there's the possibility that my role might be enhanced in the near future to include more research-based responsibilities. My undergrad degree was in the humanities, but I'm completing an MPA part time with a focus on public policy and an elective cluster in education. I have relatively strong GRE scores (mid 700s for verbal, high 600s for math), but they're about to expire. I have a strong academic record from my top-tier undergrad institution and am starting out with good grades in my highly-ranked MPA program as well.

Looking at the Ed PhD students and graduates I already know, I'm having trouble determining if this kind of background is enough, or how to enhance it if I do decide to pursue a PhD. A lot of folks have k-12 teaching and/or leadership experience, or if not, their research experience has been more substantial than mine. What steps would you recommend I take to enhance my profile?

Additionally, I'm having trouble determining if a PhD is the right path for me even if I determine that I might be a decent candidate for admissions. While I certainly wouldn't turn down a job in a university/liberal arts college/community college, I know that such jobs are difficult to attain, and I'm also not crazy about the culture of academia. At present, I imagine my ideal job as an education program officer at a foundation, conducting research at a Think Tank, or perhaps pursuing a government role (e.g. at the US department of ed, or perhaps internationally for USAID, the world bank, or the UN). I'm not sure that a PhD is the ideal preparation for these kinds of jobs.

Finally, and on a somewhat unrelated note, I'm not really sure which specialty in education I'd like to pursue. I have somewhat of an international background and like the idea of international education, but have been warned against it by some for its 'lack of focus.' Furthermore, while I love travelling and have language skills and cultural competency related to a specific region to which I would love to return, I'm aware of the difficulty of constant travel, especially as it manifests in one's personal life, and am not sure I want to make a life-long commitment to being a seed in the wind. Are there any programs that enable one to focus domestically and internationally?

Even if I were to go the pure domestic route, I'd be unsure what kind of program to select. I'm unsure how to distinguish between programs in urban education, sociology of ed, and education leadership/policy. Do the way that these programs vary differ by school, or are the differences fairly consistent across schools? Which seems most suited to my background and career goals?

I realize there are a lot of questions, and a lot of text, in this post -- thanks in advance to anyone who has gotten through it and taken the time to respond!

[DustSNK]

A pure Ed degree is a route lots of high school/ middle school teachers take. In NY, normally you get your job (if you are lucky) and have a few years to get your MA. You can get your PhD after on your own dime, and I have a close friend who is doing this (Got MA, then job, now working towards PhD in Ed) and he tells me the average increase in pay from MA to PhD is 7000$ a year. Now if you want to teach in a Uni, you have A LOT to consider. Ed departments on average are disgustingly small at uni. It will be very difficult to find work. More so, and interdisciplinary degree is usually cautioned against if you want to teach at uni, because it is hard to find work (again small departments, and most of the time the interdisciplinary dept is just a structure made up of the pure discipline professors like a Social Science or Urban Studies dept will staff Sociologist,psychologist,geographers, so on). Keeping that in mind, getting an interdisciplinary ed degree will put you in SUCH a small small small niche I would say you are going to have the most difficult time finding work. The degrees are good, you have to be intelligent and a scholar to get them and that is for sure, but you got to know lots of uni's make these degrees to draw in people who want a higher degree.... it is most often than not a way for the uni to make money. Read up on it, it has been a very popular topic in the past decade that of universities making programs that really don't translate into any work. NOW I am not saying this all to discourage you, just you should know what you have in front of you in order to deal with the decisions. Personally I would stay with a pure PhD in Ed if you want to teach in HS/MS, and if you want to do non teaching work, an Urban or Soc ed degree is very attractive to government and business.

[tron]

Thanks for your response, DustSNK. I'm afraid I may not have been clear in my original post -- I don't have a background in teaching, and I don't intend to teach or to study developmental sciences. I'm more interested in preparing for a career in which I would evaluate the effectiveness of education policies using quantitative or qualitative methods, support education innovations/programs/research via a position at a foundation, advise government institutions on which policies to implement, or study the organizational features of schools and districts from a more academic perspective.

I'm aware of the paucity of positions in academia, and also of the hiring preferences for people with traditional, disciplinary preparation. I'm also aware of the degree to which many graduate programs contribute much to the university (in terms of tuition fees or free labor) without generating a beneficial outcome in terms of the student's preparation for the work world. I also am not in a financial position that to attend a PhD program that leaves me unprepared for the job market or one that does not provide funding. These concerns are part of the reason why I'm at this forum (to see if given my interests and the realities of doctoral programs/academia, a PhD is for me).

Hope this helps clarify -- and thanks much for your input!

Edited April 24, 2012 by tron

[anti]

Tron,

It seems to me that you really are more interested in the administrative end of education and therefore an Ed.D might be better for you. Ph.D's in education usually have a teaching background and lean more on the classroom side of things. EdD and EdS are more administrative and with an MPA background the curriculum of those programs will probably be more beneficial to you.

Hope that helps!

[tron]

Hmm, that's an interesting idea. I had been under the impression that, with a few exceptions, in the education field EdDs are mostly for practitioners (e.g. teachers and school administrators) while PhDs are for those looking to do research, be it at a university or in a non-academic research setting. Is this incorrect?

[Dizzi]

No, you're pretty much correct, at least at schools that offer both an Ed.D. and a Ph.D. in Education. Harvard claims its Ed.D. is intended to be equivalent to a Ph.D. in Education at other schools, and they have a new Ed.L.D. (Doctor of Education Leadership) intended for practitioners. But even they are getting rid of the Ed.D. in favor of a Ph.D. soon.

My general advice is that if you're not sure if you should enter a doctoral program, don't. You will not succeed, no matter how smart you are, if you are not strongly focused and able to constantly remind yourself of why you are here. And the lifestyle, even for those of us who are fortunate enough to have funding, is difficult, especially if you're used to a "real" income.

That said, my professional background sounds similar to yours, except that I may have had more research experience, and my career goals are similar to what you described. I also have zero teaching experience. I would suggest taking a year or two after your MPA to work in policy research and decide if what you would get from a doctorate is necessary to get you where you want to go. It's hard to really assess that without actually working in the field for a while.

As for programs, try looking at "pure" policy programs or programs that combine some sort of discipline with education - that should be a good place to start. Penn has a number of policy programs, Michigan has policy programs and a dual-degree Education/Statistics program, Harvard has QPAE, and Columbia and Stanford both have Economics of Education programs that sound like they might interest you. In most cases, they tend to focus on methods and approaches to research/evaluation, rather than any specific subject area, like higher ed/urban ed/etc.

[DustSNK]

Uni of Toronto has a great Soc ED degree program. Great funding and support. The "Harvard" of Canada If you have the grades and background to get in I would seriously look into it.

[anti]

@ Tron and Dizzi,

Tron, from looking at what your ideal job description is, it doesn't seem that you really want to spend a career conducting research and writing books, but working more on the administrative side of things...which is why I suggested the EdD. Yes it is for practitioners, but it can also be used on the administrative side of education for those who want to work within the educational community. It's a much less rigorous degree than the PhD, which is as we all know, primarily a research degree. And also, many institutions don't have a drastic difference in the coursework of the two except for the research involved, so be mindful of that as well. I don't know if you're planning on going to "Harvard", but just know every school is different. But I do agree with Dizzi a 100%, if you're unsure, Don't Go! until you really feel that pursuing either degree will be beneficial for your career goals.

[tron]

Thanks again for your responses. Having gone down the "maybe I should do a PhD route" before, albeit in a different discipline, I know what a huge commitment it is and have no plans to apply should I not be certain that it's really for me. At present I'm just dipping my toe in the water, trying to learn a bit more about what it's like, if it could get me where I might want to go, and what I'd need to do to become more qualified if I do decide to pursue it.

A few questions for you, Dizzi -- why do you recommend "pure" policy programs over programs like urban ed, higher ed, etc? And is there any reason why econ of education or education & stats programs would be better than sociology of education?

Again, everyone, thanks for our advice, and best of luck with all of your pursuits!

[kismetcapitan]

if you have a burning single question, can research better than Google, and want to live like a monk, PhD is for you. You can also research and publish for the rest of your life.

if you want doctoral level training, Ed.D is the ticket. Some schools allow you to do a dissertation with an Ed.D - this can give you some of the career benefits of a PhD.

One analogy would be to consider law - a J.D. (doctor of law), versus a PhD in jurisprudence. Depends on what you want to do. A Ph.D makes little sense in K-12 education, either teaching or admin, but an Ed.D does. In policy though, like if you wanted to work on policy at the World Bank or a major foundation, that's when you really need a Ph.D.

[hitomimay]

Actually, you don't HAVE to have any teaching background to get into a PhD for education. EdD is more of a practitioner, as others have mentioned, but PhD is strictly a research role. You need only a VERY strong research interest in your Statement of Purpose, and demonstrate that you can handle the tough graduate school environment (your strong scores in your MPA should be more than enough). There have been a few students admitted into my PhD cohort this year that have not had any actual teaching experience. You're actually in a great place to do a PhD if you can frame your SOP well enough. I was a Biology major before this.

By the way, the majority of PhD in Education does not necessarily have to deal with teaching and the classroom. Everyone in my cohort actually focuses on Education Policy, and I'm going to be working on Economics of Education and Higher Ed access. Some others are working on Psychology of Education. Your options are quite unlimited. If you need more info, you can PM me.

[Dizzi]

A few questions for you, Dizzi -- why do you recommend "pure" policy programs over programs like urban ed, higher ed, etc? And is there any reason why econ of education or education & stats programs would be better than sociology of education?

I suggested starting off looking at policy programs because they tend to be flexible in terms of subject areas, and it doesn't sound like you have a burning passion for any particular subject area. Of course, if I'm wrong, you probably should look at subject-specific programs, too.

There are some great sociology of ed. programs, too. The econ & stats programs are obviously more focused on quantitative analysis, but if you'd prefer to go a more qualitative route, sociology is pretty popular, from what I understand. Both are pretty important in the ed research world.

[BarryIHollis]

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