I/O Programs: Master's + PhD

[jasminegreentea]

Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows of I/O PhD programs that do not make you start over (ie add 5 years) after already completing a Master's. I'm currently an undergraduate student (3rd year) looking to apply to PhD programs for Fall 2013. However, I am curious to know in the event that I only get accepted to Master's programs, if I go for a PhD afterwards, will I have to add on an additional 5 years (I know some programs make you "start over")? If not, which schools let your finish it up after a Master's in ~3 years? Thanks!

[tauren]

Some programs let you waive a few course credits and sometimes your master's thesis (if you did one), so you may shave a year off. I am currently doing this come Fall. I'm leaving my current PhD program for another and will be getting my masters and I am hoping to shave a year off and be done in 3 years for my next program. It's all really program specific as well as case-by-case I would imagine.

[lewin]

It depends on the university. Look for programs that have clearly deliniated Masters and PhD portions. The combined ma/phd programs are where you'll run into more trouble I think.

[Zencarrot]

I completed a terminal master's program and subsequently enrolled directly into first year PhD at another university with a combined ma/phd program in a related field. I am certain that program policies vary, but rest assured that you are not wasting your time pursuing a master's first. If anything, you will be better prepared for any other graduate studies you pursue in the future and this may assist you in finishing another PhD program faster (because you already know the drill, already have focus research interests, etc.).

[Engali]

Having done some pretty in-depth research on this myself, I would say that what the oth posters have said is optimistic at best and misleading at worst. The average program will allow you to waive about 9 credit hours or roughly one semester of courses, assuming that the courses are comparable in quality and subject matter.

North Carolina State U will allow you to waive up to 18 credit hours or roughly one year assuming your master's included an *empirical research thesis*. If your master's did not have such a requirement (emphasis on requirement, complete with the traditional thesis approval process), which is highly likely if you're doing a terminal master's, then they may still waive the 18 credit hours at their discretion, and probably contingent on you doing an empirical research thesis there or elsewhere. It is true that manyprograms will accept a thesis done elsewhere. It is also the case that it seems many strongly prefer that you have done one in your master's program as a requirement for the degree.

Having said that, you probably won't actually shave off any significant amount time overall because many programs have program requirements (e.g. breadth requirements) that will make you take the same amount of time overall. You'll probably just be able to take more advanced courses.

Finally, what is most likely going to hold you back from finishing early aren't courses, but inefficiency with your dissertation which may be a function of procrastination, job opportunities that crop up as an ABD, or being overwhelmed with the process. Having done research in a master's program will help the most with the last issue by giving you an opportnity to practice. You might also want to question your intentions for finishing early. If you wish to go into academia (ten to one says you're looking to get into consulting, though) then finishing early is a bad idea anyway. You'll want time to do as much research and publish as many articles as possible before you start firing your CV off to potential employers to increase your chances of landing at a prestigious school.

If I'm right about you wanting to get into consulting and wanting to start off at a much higher starting salary as a PhD holder compared to someone with a master's, I'd suggest you consider what confounding variables may be influencing APA salary data for those in the I/O specialization.

[jasminegreentea]

If I'm right about you wanting to get into consulting and wanting to start off at a much higher starting salary as a PhD holder compared to someone with a master's, I'd suggest you consider what confounding variables may be influencing APA salary data for those in the I/O specialization.

Hi Engali,

You are correct about the consulting. Are you saying that I can still make a good salary with a masters? I have been hearing and reading conflicting information about which route is best. What do you think is the best route I should take in order to do consulting? Thank you very much.

[honkycat1]

PhD in I/O is definitely a mixed degree. And it depend on the school you attend. Some schools will encourage both, while others will focus on one over the other. Don't go to a school like Penn State or Michigan State and say "I want to be a consultant". Those are big research schools and expect you to do a TON of research and get offered jobs in academia. And obviously, a PhD can land you more/better jobs than a masters, but I/O is a growing field even as of today and a masters alone is fully good enough to land a decent job. A lot easier than a masters in some other fields, for sure.

[Engali]

@jasminegreentea

The prospects for MA/MA level I/O graduates, as one myself, is supposedly good according bls.gov. The issue I'm running into, which certainly isn't specific to our field, is the influx of the experienced unemployed vying for the jobs that normally be a perfect fit. After all, why would a company hire a newly minted master's graduate when they can hire someone with2-5 years of experience for the same pay? This is an issue with the economy and wealth distribution in this country and general (sorry, just saw a documentary) that won't likely go away anytime soon.

As far got as making money in consulting as a PhD, I realized something that wasn't obvious at first glance when I first looked at salary data as provided by the APA. As a graduate assistant, I was helping with putting together an SPSS training package and used the APA salary as broken down by specialization, for practice sets for the statistical analyses. It became apparent as I transcribed the data and made up the code sheet that there were a lot of confounding factors that were skewing data. First, salary data for annual wages only included the money at primary place of employment, so for example PhDs with a Clinical specialization were only including what they were making at their university, hospital, or private practices. This left out a good chunk of money they might have, could have, or did, or are making consulting in court cases or with private companies and such.

The second issue is more problematic and has to do with licensure laws. If you specialize in Clinical, chances are you weren't practicing anything or for any length of time if you got a master's before getting the PhD; simply, you can't do too much with a master's in general or clinical psychology. So, people who did find themselves in this position either quickly went into PhD program or didn't at all, in which case the latter population obviously wouldn't be included in PhD wage data. For I/O you *can* do a fair bit with a master's ( at least in a good economy) and many do. I don't have any data for this, but I imagine many more and/or a higher percentage of I/O master's grads work for a period time and then pursue a PhD especially if they are more practice oriented, which basically defines most of the people who pursue a master's in I/O. I would hazard to guess that many people who get a PhD in I/O and go immediately into consulting come from master's programs in the same field after a few years of experience. The confounding variable here for I/O PhD starting salaries then are work experience. It seems that PhDs have a higher starting salary *because* of the degree compared to a master's, but we have no data on how many of those PhDs had years of work experience in HR and/or HR consulting prior to their PhD, either at the BA/BA or MA/MS level. This is exacerbated by the fact that the APA salary survey asks that people report data for their current job and categorize their years of experience based on time since receiving degree and discounting any experience that isn't related. A lot of hard and soft skills could be discounted that are actually the very reasons why the person got hired in the first place just because it isn't apparent to the person surveyed that they are relevant to their current position. Also, people who respecialize are discounting their experience as well. For example, someone who has been in Clinical for twenty years decides to take down their shingle and pursue greener pastures in consulting. They respecialize in I/O and report to APA their starting salary once they get a consulting job. We know that some human capital consulting firms seem just as happy to receive applications from Clinical and counseling phDs as they are I/O. So that starting salary could be inflated by the skills, knowledge, and abilities that respecializer is bringing to the table, and yet it's still reported as a data point in I/O Phd starting salaries.

Anyway, there are other issues there, but the APA salary data is misleading--or rather, it's easy for people to mislead themselves into thinking that correlation is causation.

[Engali]

Sorry, forgot to add that the survey asks people to report wage data and categorize their years of experience *since receiving degree AND discounting any work experience that isn't relevant to their current job*.

@jasminegreentea

Sorry, didn't answer your question. I hesitate to give you advice on what path to pursue, but you can't go wrong getting as much relevant work experience as possible if you want to go into consulting. Of course this will be challenging in PhD programs unless they support this sort of thing. It's easier in master's program, but that obviously lengthens your timeline. Having been I your situation, I don't honestly know what the best path is; I'm currently figuring that out myself. All I know is that I am (probably foolishly) applying for PhD programs again this year. I just love the field too much not to be a bonafide expert.

P.S. Sorry about typos; typing on iPad

[PsychGirl1]

The websites for most programs address students who are coming in with a master's and how they handle the credits and/or thesis. I'd look through a few programs you're thinking of and see what they say.