How many is too many?

[eltoro89]

As an American applying broadly to programs in Canada for next cycle, I have chosen eleven universities, in order to make sure I have the widest possible range of opportunity in attending grad school.

I don't mind the money spent on applications, but my biggest worry is going to LoR writers with the intention of getting LoRs for eleven different institutions. I know that conventional advice states that if they aren't willing to work with you, then you shouldn't ask them for an LoR, but I also realize that professors are busy people. Many of the schools to which I am applying also have a referee form that accompanies the LoR. Some want LoRs by mail, others want LoRs by an online system.

I realize that eleven is a large number, but competition for international students is fierce and I wanted to cast a wide net. It seems most people here apply to a smaller number of schools. How do I approach professors about doing LoRs in this situation? What's the best way to manage and make sure that everything gets done when all of these universities have different methods for sending in LoRs?

[ILuvPsych2013]

Hi there!

First off, professors are given this task every fall (some even have multiple students that they are writing for). This is something that most seasoned profs are used to doing, and are happy to do for their students. I echo the sentiment that if they seem hesitant about anything (including the number of schools you are applying to), find another letter writer.

Personally, I am applying to 16 schools this fall. When I told my letter writers this, they were more concerned with whether the research fit was good at all of these schools. Since the fit is good, they are all more than happy to write my letters. I was very scared having 16 schools, but one of my profs told me that last season she wrote to 25 schools for one of her students!

My advice to you is to be as organized as possible and make it as easy as possible for your writers. For example, I am devising a binder that has a specific section for each school that talks about which professor(s) I hope to work with (and their research specialty), their application deadlines, and specific instructions on how to submit the letter. Also in your binder, include a copy of your personal statement, C.V., and unofficial transcript.

Many letter submissions are online now-when you submit your application, there is a section where you put the names and email addresses of your recommenders and an email is sent to them requesting the letter. Some are still required to be sent by snail mail-in this case, you want to have envelopes already stamped and addressed for your writers. And ALWAYS waive your right to view the letters beforehand. After the letters have been submitted, it is customary to give your letter writers a small gift card ($10?) to Starbucks or something similar for all of their hard work. It is quite the rigorous process, but hopefully a good investment of your time! I hope this helps.

[surefire]

As an American applying broadly to programs in Canada for next cycle, I have chosen eleven universities, in order to make sure I have the widest possible range of opportunity in attending grad school.

I don't mind the money spent on applications, but my biggest worry is going to LoR writers with the intention of getting LoRs for eleven different institutions. I know that conventional advice states that if they aren't willing to work with you, then you shouldn't ask them for an LoR, but I also realize that professors are busy people. Many of the schools to which I am applying also have a referee form that accompanies the LoR. Some want LoRs by mail, others want LoRs by an online system.

I realize that eleven is a large number, but competition for international students is fierce and I wanted to cast a wide net. It seems most people here apply to a smaller number of schools. How do I approach professors about doing LoRs in this situation? What's the best way to manage and make sure that everything gets done when all of these universities have different methods for sending in LoRs?

Pre-emptive welcome to Canada!

11 does kind of strike me as a lot; some of us in a Toronto thread were discussing the how there seems to be a discrepency in the "typical" number of American apps vs. Canadian ones (a dozen-ish compared to a half dozen-ish). HOWEVER, the funded international spots in Canadian grad school programs appear to be hyper-competitive, so the "wide-net" mentality might not work against you in your case, as long as each program is a viable choice and the breadth doesn't muddle your focus.

I had three letter-writers on deck, and two of them did about 8 letters for me. 4 of these were for apps, and 4 were for awards. In Canada, and in Ontario specifically, current and prospective grad students more often than not apply for the SSRCH/NSERC and the Ontario Graduate Scholarship. These apps are due October/November and require LoRs. So, my recommenders mostly had their letters ready to go by the time December/January grad program deadlines rolled around (I think deadlines are a bit earlier in the States yes? So there's a plus!) It seemed to me, that while the task of writing that first letter requires some back-and-forth, it's not too much effort to repurpose it for different apps. But good on you for thinking of the workload of your writers and anticipating that this might make things sticky, here's my advice:

1. Be clear with everyone what number of applications you are looking at and what that will entail from them and make sure that your expectations are all aligned. I know it seems simple, but from what I've experienced (as someone who has also WRITTEN LoRs), It's the "oh-there's-just-this-one-more-thing" that might cause writers to shut down. I had stipulations about whom I wrote letters for, and I never wrote for a student that I didn't, you know, like and want to write for... but what SUCKS is when you finish/submit a letter, mentally move on to the next thing, and then the student asks you to do the letter again for a new program, or the timeframe shifted and they never told you and now you only have 3 days to submit it, or for whatever reason the school never got the letter that you sent TWO MONTHS ago and the student didn't keep tabs on it and the school didn't tell you and could you please do it again ASAP IT'S URGENT!!!

I like knowing what I've committed too, if the task is more onerous than what I agreed to, then, yeah, it's frustrating. If you're clear about the committment, most writers probably won't mind keeping your letter "on deck" and re-purposing/submitting it as needed. It's less effort to keep it at the forefront than to finish it and put it out of your mind and then realize that you need to dredge it up again.

2. Provide things that will make their lives easier. Ask if they want to see your statement/CV/transcript so they can write in an informed fashion and GET THIS TO THEM EARLY. As ILovePsych2013 mentioned, pre-addressed/stamped envelopes are good. If LoRs need a sheet that accompanies them, fill out (only is you're allowed!) the sections that need your personal info/details OR make sure that you provide all of this info in one clear coherant place for writer reference. Don't make them scratch their heads and hunt for your student number or mailing address. I just wrote these details out clearly in an email; "The [univeristy/program] app requires a cover sheet to accompany the letter. My info that needs to be provided on the form is as follows: Name:_____ Age:_____" ect;

3.Make a spreadsheet for WHICH PROGRAM needs WHAT by WHEN and via WHAT MEDIUM. Have columns for each letter writer/school. Stipulate dates by which things need to be done (account for mail times/weekends and periods when maybe the writers are away from their e-mail and LEAVE ENOUGH TIME for things that might go wrong). Check things off as you finish. E-mail writers and keep them in the loop as things change; something that worked for me was having each correspondence acknowledge something that just happened and what is due next - "Hi Prof. so-and-so, I see from the [university] online portal that the letter for [program] was received on [date] Thanks so much for getting that in! The next deadline on the horizon is for [university/program] which would like to receive the letter via [e-mail/mail] by [date]. Please let me know if I can clarify or elaborate on any of this!" If you haven't heard from the letter-writer in a while and a deadline is looming, you can e-mail them to "double-check that they received the instructions" or whatever; offer to re-send if required and gently re-iterate the deadline. Your spreadsheet can have columns that stipulate WHEN you will contact writers if they fall off the map a little (I found that this helped me feel less guilty about sending reminder e-mails if I stipulated a date in advance).

4. Keep a "Sent Mail" folder on your e-mail just for your writers to keep tabs on corresponcence and for quick reference.

5. E-mail them when they are all done to say "Yah, you're all done!" Promise to let them know the outcome.

6. Let them know the outcome and, if possible, your decision! They put a lot of effort into your app too and would be gratified to hear what the fruits of their labour hath bought! I e-mailed them right away when I made a decision and, after the dust settled, everyone got a personalized hand-written note and a mug from the school that I had chosen to attend!

TL;DR: Just, be clear, be on top of it, keep the writers in the loop if things change, let them know when they're done! It's always worth it to take considerate steps; if writers have a positive experience working with you, then you become known as a student that is easy/rewarding to support, which is a great rep to cultivate!

Best of luck!

Edited June 19, 2012 by surefire

[eltoro89]

Thanks for the advice! My original list was a bit smaller, but through correspondence with my first choice, I learned that they accepted only two international students this year. Between 2 and 5 seems to be the magic number for international students. That number really motivated me to consider more options. All of the schools I'm applying to have several faculty who fit my research interests, so I feel that the focus will be fine.

Thanks for the pre-emptive welcome! Hopefully I don't get denied from all eleven. If so, I won't have any left over money for all the alcohol I'll need to live it down. Hopefully my cycle next year will start off with an acceptance so that I won't be on pins and needles the whole time. I think there's an extra layer of OMGWTFSHJSDHJSHJSDHJSDAAAAAHHHH felt when you're applying as an international student.

Edited June 19, 2012 by eltoro89

[abdefghijkl]

Surefire give awesome advice! As a prof writing letters, I love it when I get to write for such organized and considerate students. Also, that level of professionalism and just having your act together is the sign of a student that will do very well in grad student - so it tends to make me write a stronger letter of recommendation.

Rest assured, if you want a good letter from someone, don't bungle asking for it and supplying your info - that is a performance too and it does inform the letter that is ultimately produced.

[TakeruK]

Surefire's advice is great. I sent my profs a 1-page document with my GPA, GRE scores, and a 2 sentence research statement followed by a table listing school+program, due date, and who I'd want to work with at that school. I sent this document with my CV to the profs after they confirmed that they would want to write letters for me.

I tell the profs that I will only register them onto the system about ~3 weeks before the due date and in my initial email, ask if they would like this to be earlier. 2-3 weeks is a good time since if you send it in, say, October, they might forget about it. I send another reminder email ~3 days in advance of the deadline and in that email, I ask if they would like me to get the application system to autosend the LOR request (so that they have the link at the top of their inbox). If they go past the deadline, then I get the system to autosend the request and I also send them a reminder email again.

Keep in mind that the application deadline are really only for you and your materials. LORs, GRE scores, transcripts etc. can come in much later -- as long as they arrive before the committee meets to consider applications, it's okay. So don't freak out, either internally or at your profs!!

As for Canada -- also pre-emptive welcome! For physics, and maybe for other fields, but not sure.....there isn't an admissions committee the same way as the US has one. There might be a committee just to make sure your application meets the minimum standards but in the end, it's the prof that you're applying to that makes the final decision. So it's really more like a job application. The committee is there as a sanity check, but decisions are usually made by the supervisor you're applying to. So, having 11 schools might make it harder for you to get in contact with everyone and manage all the communications etc. as well. But maybe this is not a concern for your field, if so, you might want to disregard this paragraph!

[eltoro89]

As for Canada -- also pre-emptive welcome! For physics, and maybe for other fields, but not sure.....there isn't an admissions committee the same way as the US has one. There might be a committee just to make sure your application meets the minimum standards but in the end, it's the prof that you're applying to that makes the final decision. So it's really more like a job application. The committee is there as a sanity check, but decisions are usually made by the supervisor you're applying to. So, having 11 schools might make it harder for you to get in contact with everyone and manage all the communications etc. as well. But maybe this is not a concern for your field, if so, you might want to disregard this paragraph!

I'm not sure if it's the same in political science. I have identified professors whose research interests line up with mine, but only a few departments have explicitly said that this is necessary. For the rest, I'm sure there's an unspoken understanding that you should be aware of who it is you want to work with. My understanding is that, in the sciences, funding tends to come directly from research budgets of professors. Of course, in actually, I have no idea if that's true, but seems plausible.

In any case, I keep a spreadsheet of all the programs I'm applying to, their requirements, application fees, and potential advisors.

I'll take the safe approach and contact professors anyway. Even if Political Science in Canada does rely heavily on an admissions committee, the people who I make contact with might have some influence in the decision process.

[TakeruK]

I'm not sure if it's the same in political science. I have identified professors whose research interests line up with mine, but only a few departments have explicitly said that this is necessary. For the rest, I'm sure there's an unspoken understanding that you should be aware of who it is you want to work with. My understanding is that, in the sciences, funding tends to come directly from research budgets of professors. Of course, in actually, I have no idea if that's true, but seems plausible.

In any case, I keep a spreadsheet of all the programs I'm applying to, their requirements, application fees, and potential advisors.

I'll take the safe approach and contact professors anyway. Even if Political Science in Canada does rely heavily on an admissions committee, the people who I make contact with might have some influence in the decision process.

Ah, good for me to know that Yes, a big chunk of our funding comes directly from our profs' research budget -- for me it's about 33%! Even if the people you contact can't influence the decision process, you will get to talk to some interesting people about stuff you like to study and you will probably see them at conferences and get to know them even better! Good luck