Advice RE: Not-so-great undergrad program

[stardust]

Hi all. New here.

So, I am a non-trad student at a small, private liberal arts college. I am currently a chemistry-health sciences major heading into what will technically be my junior year (despite actually having some 130 undergraduate college credits).

I love chemistry, but our department is tiny. The only chemistry classes I'll be able to take are:

2 semesters gen chem

2 semesters org chem

1 sem analytical chem

1 sem inorganic chem

1 sem biochem

Plus of course I'll take calculus and physics, required by major. And molecular modeling.

No P-chem offered.

Essentially, I am also taking enough biology classes (back-up plan?) that theoretically I could major in biology instead, though I'm less interested in pursuing it in grad school, I think. School won't allow a double major, so it'll be considered a minor. So, I've taken intro bio, physiology, and genetics already and will have several more to come (micro, advanced micro, ecology, evo/devo, molecular techniques, etc).

My current school GPA is a 3.96 (science GPA = 4.0), though I've only been taking 12-13 credits per semester as I have two kids. Anticipating grad school apps, I'm taking 17 credits next semester, and will beef up spring as well. I transferred in a 3.6 GPA.

I've won the only two science department awards offered. Though while that may possibly sound impressive, it's not like I was up against 300 other students. I was also elected chapter president of Tri-Beta for next year.

I'm blessed I guess that being in such a small school I have good relationships with my profs. They run our labs and can testify to my work. The downside? A weak chem program and NO ACTUAL RESEARCH. Well, not on paper anyway, where it counts - I know in both ecology and advanced micro I'll do some minor, 'independent' research, though it's extremely unlikely to get published... it's just practice.

Due to my two kids, I can't take a summer program (husband won't allow it as childcare will cost far more than I'll earn, and let's face it - I'm a college student and money is tight). I've applied to the one area school for a semester-long research program, but it requires 10 hours per week, and I'll be taking 17 credits ... and I haven't heard anything yet ... and it's biology, not chemistry. One LOR for the program was great, one was so-so (was given a copy AFTER it was sent in).

So, am I going to end up screwed for grad schools here? I am contemplating switching my major to bio, though I'll lose a scholarship in doing so (that was one of my awards). Should I consider switching schools? I am terrified to, though. I am in my very early 30s, and have already attended two previous schools (one was a community college - I hadn't taken my ACTs, and the other was a business school). I worry that switching again will look even worse. And I do love our department profs.

Feeling frustrated here. I feeling like I am running out of time/options here and could use some advice.

Edited July 10, 2012 by stardust

[Usmivka]

It sounds like you are doing fine there. The relationships with your profs are important, and their LORs will be what gets you into a school, not what courses you couldn't take. In your statement of purpose you can mention that you took every chem course offered, but don't demean your school--that is one of the kisses of death in applications (see the thread of the same name). Presumably if you are such a strong student you can pick up whatever you are missing class-wise when you get to your next stage of academia, so it shouldn't be a big deal.

Research should be happening in the lab of one of those profs, not in classes or fixed length summer programs. Find out what they are doing, if they need a lab rat, and ask to work on a project or in a field of interest. This is the research experience that will get you into grad school, and is what your competitors for admission are doing. Also, get paid for your time in the lab--just like grad school, if you aren't being paid, you shouldn't be doing it (I know others will disagree with me on this point specifically as relates to undergrad research, but it is my opinion that this is the equivalent of an unpaid internship in the business world--either you aren't appreciated or are taking a job from someone who can't afford to work for peanuts like you).

Also, I don't see how you can make any sort of judgement about what you might want to do for grad school, or even whether you want to go, without doing research. Grad school in the natural/physical sciences is all about research. You don't have to do the same research, but if you can't stand real, sustained benchwork (or fieldwork depending on what you try out) you need to know that now.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Usmivka

[stardust]

Thanks for your reply. My school actually does not put out any current research. Any research being conducted by our profs is independent of our school. The only one I know that is actually doing anything at the moment I 1) have not had as a prof yet and 2) it isn't in an area I'm interested in (wildlife). We have a new dept head, and the school is switching from 'college' to 'university' in fall 2013, so this will change. Unfortunately, I won't really benefit.

So, while we don't have TAs in our labs, we don't really get to do any "real" research, either. Sure we do mock papers, etc, but that's it.

In fact, my so-so LOR pretty much reiterated over and over how interested in grad school I am and how we don't have opportunities for research in our school (she'd said that my grades would speak for themselves, so she didn't want to focus on my classroom/academic achievements).

My advisor recommended contacting one of the local state schools to essentially beg for a spot in their lab as an assistant. I am in the process of researching their labs in order to do so, but am a bit nervous about it. I was hoping to get into the other program, if I'm honest (much better reputation, even if it is biology). I haven't been rejected yet, but no interview invite, either.

Thanks for the advice on my SOPs. I am literally taking every science course offered (that don't overlap) in an effort to do what I can. I would never bash my school - they do great with what we have, but tips like that are very helpful.

I was originally a nursing major here after a 7-yr break from school, so I didn't originally choose the school for it's strength in science. I just fell in love with the sciences again (I'd gone to a science-specialty high school) and the department staff, and after a year of arguing with myself, I couldn't help but switch.

My current primary interests are either genetics, oceanography or aquatic ecology. So, yeah, some experience would be nice. I like the idea of genetics, but might go crazy at a bench 24/7. In theory, a balance of fieldwork and benchwork would be great.

Edited July 10, 2012 by stardust

[Usmivka]

So my read on this is that the school hires lecturers as opposed to active researchers for some of its teaching. I think it is totally OK to contact someone you have never had a class with (and perhaps never will) about research possibilities, in whatever field. At least some of those you contact will give you a shot given your CV. But to be brutally honest, I don't see how you will get into a grad program in the sciences without doing some research. Two years of research is good, one is perhaps enough, but you really have to get started now to give yourself a good shot. It is nerve-wracking to put yourself out there like that, but you will relax and learn how to sell yourself better as you try. If you truly can't work with anyone at your school, in any science field, then you do need to do as your adviser suggested--with his/her promise to follow up and recommend you strongly for research to whoever seems open to hosting you. Switching programs won't obviate the problem, so might as well start looking for anything in either/any/all field(s).

[stardust]

Yes, exactly. We have PhD'd lecturers, essentially. And when I say our department is small - I mean small. This past spring we graduated a total of eight (8) students. And that's between biology and chemistry.

I'll start sending out e-mails to area labs this week and cross my fingers. I think I'll apply to the closest state school, just in case. Though that would add a year to graduation (and heck, I could work in a lab for that year, instead, and get paid for it).

Thanks again for all of your advice.

[Eigen]

I think the lack of research combined with the lack of courses will make grad school quite difficult.

You're missing 3 PChem courses, Instrumental Analysis, Organic Synth, Advanced Inorganic/Organometallics and a second Biochem course from an ACS certified curriculum. I assume you've had labs with all of the courses you mentioned?

You might be in a position where you'd be able to get into an MS program (say, at your local state school), and then move on to a PhD program, but that MS program might not be funded. Could you, at this point, transfer to the state school? You've got about two years of chemistry coursework left in a typical curriculum, which would be a fine time to transfer.

You mention that your husband won't allow you to do a summer program, but how will that work out with you going on to a PhD, where you'll have to move (likely quite far) and be working a good many more hours a week than you are now?

[Usmivka]

You're missing 3 PChem courses, Instrumental Analysis, Organic Synth, Advanced Inorganic/Organometallics and a second Biochem course from an ACS certified curriculum.

By and large I think these are all good points, but I think these particular courses are unecessary for graduate work in Oceanography, Aquatic Ecology, or Genetics, the three fields listed. Some would be useful, but not all would not be expected.

On an unrelated note, did ACS recently update its guidelines or something? Because I have an ACS certified degree, and (short of trama induced amnesia related to taking a chem degree), I'm don't think I took all those classes. Or maybe the names are throwing me off, or perhaps there are alternative courses that fall within the same ACS core competencies? I'm ogoing to go look at this now...

Edited July 10, 2012 by Usmivka

[Eigen]

Man, I completely missed those fields in the second post!

So, to update, Usmivka is absolutely correct.

And imo, a biology/biochemistry major will prepare you better for genetics and Aquatic Ecology than a chemistry major will, and a geology major would leave you better prepared for Oceanography, unless you're going specifically into Geochemistry, in which case it's a tossup. Which leaves me a bit confused as to why this is in the chemistry section.

Along these lines, you mention that there's research going on in Wildlife, but that you're not interested in it... It seems like Wildlife research would be fairly close to Aquatic Ecology, at least in terms of the basics of the research. Different sampling techniques, but similar background and theories.

It's not that you can't take a Chemistry major on to those fields, but lacking the chem courses wouldn't be a big deal at all.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Eigen

[Eigen]

The ACS requirements are stated a bit differently- there's some variability in *which* upper level courses are/may be required.

You have general chemistry requirements (2 courses)

Foundational Courses- Analytical, Biochemistry, Inorganic Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, Physical Chemistry, of which Organic and Physical are year long (2 semester) courses.

In-depth coursework- 12 hours of advanced classes that build on one of the foundational classes.

At least when I got my degree, that was fulfilled by 4 of Instrumental Analysis, Advanced Organic, Advanced Biochemistry, QM and Advanced Inorganic.

Coursenames might vary, and there's flexibility to include additional upper level courses there. I'm pretty sure for a program to be ACS certified, however, all 5 of the in-depth areas must offer courses.

For labs, a total of 400 lab-hours are required, distributed between foundational and in-depth coursework.

Undergraduate research is also required to be offered, and can count for some of the in-depth coursework and some of the lab hours, depending.

Practically, almost every certified chem major I've run into took primarily the same courses I listed above, with differences in one of the in-depth classes, usually, mainly between those that took a second biochemistry and those that took QM.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Eigen

[stardust]

Thanks for the replies. Ideally, I'd do more a chemical oceanography program or geochemistry perhaps. Maybe biochemistry? We also have a good local freshwater program that I'll likely apply to (biogeochemistry).

I posted here because I'll probably also apply to chemistry grad schools, at least that was the plan ... to be honest, I've sort of switched my way of thinking away from 'just' chemistry as I know my undergrad program is weak.

I was worried that the combined weak degree + lack of research would be the killer for me. I'm not necessarily expecting to attend a top 10 or 20 program, but would like something decent.

As far as the summers go, once I'm on stipend somewhere, the childcare cost won't be an issue anymore. Plus my oldest will be 11 by my "first summer", so it would only be a summer or two that I'd have to be concerned about that cost.

And as I'll first have calculus this year (we didn't have enough students last year, so it wasn't offered), I'd be adding at least 1-2 additional years of school if I switch. I'd almost rather just finish, then attend post-bac at the state school (I won't qualify for any sort of aid there now, anyway).

Heck, our physics isn't even calculus-based. All I need to take it is college algebra. The more I read into this, the more I'm getting concerned. Maybe I will apply elsewhere. It would suck a bit, though - with my scholarships I've got at my $26k/yr school, I'll end up paying considerably more to attend my state school. :/

Edited July 10, 2012 by stardust

[Eigen]

I guess it depends how expensive your state school. My tuition was around $1600/semester full time- some state schools are definitely cheaper than others, especially the non-flagship state schools.

[stardust]

Yeah, the local state school is about $8k/yr not including books, even for a resident. It's our 2nd largest. I'm going to check around.