how to compensate for a weak undergrad name brand

[bewilderedherd]

Hi, all. I searched around a bit before posting, so apologies if this has already been covered in another thread. I am about to enter my sophomore year as a history major at SF State. Despite reading (somewhat obsessively) a number of articles and Chronicle threads on the hopelessness of the job market for humanities PhDs , I really love my discipline and want advanced training in historical research and pedagogy. The idea of being a high school teacher at the end of it doesn't repulse me at all, but I would still like to be competitive for admission to top programs so I receive enough funding to avoid going into debt and at least have a shot at teaching at the college level after graduation. However, it seems like a lot of these top schools are not very open to students who went to non-elite schools for their undergraduate education. While I've enjoyed the history program here a great deal so far, had I known that going to a csu would limit my options, I probably would've gone to a UC. However, state offered me a scholarship with four years' tuition paid for, and it didn't seem worth going in to debt to attend, say, UC Davis (I didn't make it into Berkeley or LA).

So my question is, what can I do now to make up for going to a state school? My grades were solid my freshman year (3.98 gpa), but good grades are clearly not enough, especially considering state schools' not undeserved reputation for grade inflation. Right now, I'm taking a lot of GE and lower-division survey courses so I won't really have an opportunity to take classes and network with professors with appealing research interests until the spring semester of this coming year. I'm going to start taking Spanish classes this fall (I'm interested in Latin American history) and hope to have made good progress on my language training by the time I graduate. I intend to do an honor thesis senior year and I also think I'll be able to take a class or two at Cal through a cross-registration program. What else should I be doing over the next three years to make my chances better? Do minors look good? I was thinking of doing minors in Latin American Studies and Labor Studies, but recently I've heard that "Studies" disciplines are a bit looked down on. Maybe Sociology or Econ? Or a general interdisciplinary social science minor? Please help me out, fora. Many thanks

[Simple Twist of Fate]

However, it seems like a lot of these top schools are not very open to students who went to non-elite schools for their undergraduate education. While I've enjoyed the history program here a great deal so far, had I known that going to a csu would limit my options, I probably would've gone to a UC. However, state offered me a scholarship with four years' tuition paid for, and it didn't seem worth going in to debt to attend, say, UC Davis (I didn't make it into Berkeley or LA). [...] So my question is, what can I do now to make up for going to a state school? [...] but good grades are clearly not enough [...] Do minors look good?

Hello, and welcome to the gradcafe. First of all, you have a lot of time to prepare, which is great, so try not to let yourself get stressed out too early. By that, I mean, don't worry if you get a B+ on a history paper. Many intellectually-ambitious people have that moment when they get a poor grade (not that a B or B+ is a poor grade, but as you point out, grade inflation) and worry that they now will miss out on their dream graduate school, and consequently won't be able to get a job, and will die in a cardboard box, etc. The advantages of beginning this preparation early are obvious, but savor your undergrad experience as well, and don't let The Plan get in the way of a healthy lifestyle or good mental and emotional health. In retrospect, I wish I had done this more. For example, I now realize that many of the things (extracurriculars mostly) that I pursued because they would look good on a CV almost certainly had no bearing on my admissions.

As to your actual questions, I would suggest several things to focus on:

1) Developing your research skills, and being able to show that you have developed these skills. It's unlikely your eventual writing sample will come from something you wrote during your sophomore year, but a research internship or something like that can show that you have research experience. Be intentional about this. Take your professors' advice seriously, and begin from the assumption that you have a lot to learn.

2) Don't close off other possibilities. If your current plan is to go to graduate school right after undergrad, that's great, but recognize that a lot can happen between now and when you submit your apps in 2.5 years. If opportunities seem to conflict with your Plan, that's okay. A good friend of mine was so committed to her Plan of going to law school that she turned down a lucrative job in Spain that basically fell into her lap. A few months later, she decided against law school, but the job opportunity had passed, and she's now jobless, waiting for a year to start a Master's program in something else entirely.

3) Develop your own distinctive research interests. It's great that you know you're interested in Latin American history. Do you have any thoughts about what part of that is most appealing to you? You might be able to develop that for your honors thesis. As you do research in Latin American history and discover the fields that interest you most, take note of the best scholarship you read. Are any of the scholars still teaching (at schools with graduate programs)? Take note of this, it will help later. The minors you're considering could be helpful for this. If you're thinking you might want to do economic history, taking a few Econ classes can help you figure that out. Rather than being attractive assets for your CV (which they're not in any significant measure, and can actually be detrimental if you let minor-collecting turn your focus away from historical research), consider a minor as a way of defining your interests and possibly approaching your research interest in Latin America from multiple perspectives. For example, I minored in English and Philosophy, and took quite a few Sociology classes (not quite enough for a minor). At every opportunity I got, I (shamelessly) focused research papers with open-ended topics on my field of early America and profited by learning to apply the methods and theory of different disciplines to my own field of interest.

4) Keep in the back of your mind that you're embarking on an intellectual journey - at which the end may be graduate school, or something better. When you apply, you'll write a Statement of Purpose describing this journey. As you go on, keep track of what's significant to you. For me, I can recall 1 or 2 moments (one in a professor's office talking with him, the other while doing some very tedious research and having one of those great moments when you feel like you've just done something significant) that gave me the confidence to pursue graduate school in history. Though my SOP didn't describe these scenes, they were key to helping me frame and describe my "purpose" as it were.

Also, as everyone else will point out, languages. It's good that you're going into Spanish, but the more languages you're competent in (and more specifically, the more you're able to prove you're competent in), the more competitive your application will eventually be.

Finally, your question about undergrad "name brand". Your assumption is that "top schools are not very open to students who went to non-elite schools". I'm not sure I agree with that. I think that this is one of those many things that is hard to give advice about, because every admissions committee has its own little biases. Some schools will probably be impressed by a big-name school. Others apparently favor some measure of "diversity" in their cohorts by including a mix of different academic backgrounds. No committee wants to admit that "We chose X over Y because X went to a better name-brand school." Yet there is the undeniable fact that a 3.7 at Yale is likely to seem more impressive than a 4.0 at Pine Holler Bible College. In truth, there's probably some validity in this over a large sample size (and I say this as a proud and unrepentant attendee of a very-much non-name-brand school). However, I believe that while your generalization probably describes some members of some adcoms, and perhaps some schools, it isn't a significant enough barrier to a) prevent you from applying to top schools, barring your entry, assuming you put together a strong application for each top school, and c) requiring something "extra" to compensate.

My advice is that you don't worry about that particular aspect of your application. You can't control an adcom's reaction to your school's name any more than the dozens of other variables you can't control in this process. I also chose my undergrad over a more prestigious alternative to avoid debt, and it turned out to have been a good decision. For one thing, I absolutely wouldn't have had the same great relationships with professors at the other school as I had at my alma mater. It's also *very* nice to go off to grad school without any debt. While I can't speak for all of the schools I applied to, I know that among the schools I was accepted to, my application beat several applications from students at far more prestigious undergrads. One prof. specifically told me that my subfield chose my app over someone's from Harvard. I don't know why she proffered that particular example, but I have to admit that it felt good (nothing against the Harvard-people). :-) Don't look at coming from a state school as "limiting your options" or as "something to make up for". The Ivys, the Chicagos, the Berkeleys of the world might bite your arm off if you put together the right app with the right fit for their needs and their program.

EDIT: Sorry - this was a much longer response than I anticipated. I think I had many of the same apprehensions as you did prior to my application cycle, so I wanted to offer my thoughts and experiences to assuage your worries. Feel free to PM if you have questions or would like to talk, and good luck with your sophomore year. As someone who just left undergrad, I envy you.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Simple Twist of Fate

[TMP]

Like you, I started thinking about the PhD in my sophomore year. I did go to a top-20 LAC but it's not quite known for sending students off to PhD programs. Most of the professors were out of touch with the graduate admissions process. At least you're in a program with a MA option that have sent people off to PhD, your professors will know how to direct you and prepare you.

Just because you're at a state school and only a rising sophomore, there is no excuse of delaying your communication with professors. Professors love it when undergrads show interest in them and their work. Just... don't mention graduate school off the bat- you don't know what their responses will be like and they barely known you to make any sound judgment. Give them at least a year. So when you return in September, go ahead and e-mail some people or drop by their office hours. They know that sophomores are exploring different majors so they will anticipate you asking questions. I WISH I had asked MORE questions as an undergrad! It wasn't until my junior year I felt comfortable enough to go to office hours and have engaging conversations.

As for the name-brand, I stand by my first sentence above. Further, your background and experience at SFSU will add diversity to any PhD program. Some PhD programs care more about diversity than others (usually top public and Yale) and those may be the ones you want to aim for. If any program lists their graduate students and education, look through them to get a sense.

Do enjoy undergraduate. Do the ECs that you like. Hang out with your friends. I did a lot of tutoring in K-5 and now looking back, I realized how much I really enjoyed teaching and am looking forward to being a TA when my turn comes around. I did some history-focused internships that helped really decide on the PhD in History, not a MA in Museum Studies.

I am a very strong proponent of study abroad. As a transnational historian, I've found living in the Middle East and Europe to be my biggest influences in how I approach history and determining my thematic interests. People do get in without studying abroad but I just think the experience (on top of daily exposure in target language) can unsettle anyone and encourage them to re-think what's important to them because they're out of their comfort zone and direct influences from their professors and peers.

I agree with SToF about bottom line. Though I went to a strong LAC and a name-brand MA program, my GPA was just above 3.0 and I had horrible GRE scores (just over 1000), my application was as competitive as this other applicant whom my current adviser also accepted. This person received 4 other fellowship offers from "top-notch" programs (my guess that one of them just HAS to be Berkeley). I received a prestigious fellowship offer from another program that's*slightly* above my own and it's quite special to get one of these fellowships.

It's your hard work that matters and professors like to see that. You have to show yourself to be a deserving applicant.

And yes, it's extremely nice to be able to go into graduate school without any debt. Oh... what I'd do with that a couple of hundred dollars that I am currently paying out of my stipend towards loans from my MA program... I'd just LOVE to be able to go shopping on a regular basis. And maybe travel a little more often.

[iamincontrolhere-haig]

You don't need to do anything to "make up" for going to a state school.

Although it may be difficult to divorce yourself from this mindset, try not to think of everything you do from the perspective of an admissions committee. Instead, work on deriving as much intellectual benefit and personal enjoyment as you can from your undergraduate education. Take as many courses as you can, both inside and outside your field of interest. Challenge yourself. Join the honors program. Learn new languages. Read widely. Be open to changes in your plans and your interests. Most important, visit office hours and build meaningful relationships with your professors, even in GE courses (that's where I was first urged to consider graduate school). Later during your time as an undergraduate, you can ask these professors about enrolling in one or more graduate-level courses.

By taking this approach, you'll be less stressed and, I would argue, better prepared for graduate study than you will be if you relentlessly scrutinize your every move asking, "Will this help me get into graduate school?"

Edit: This thread () also has a wealth of information about the application process. Were I in your shoes, I would pay particular attention to the "lessons learned" section of each post.

Edited July 30, 2012 by iamincontrolhere-haig

[bewilderedherd]

Thank you all for the good advice. I'm happy to see that my worries were not entirely justified and especially appreciated advice about exploring your research interests through other disciplines. I just have two more questions though.

1. Is it pretty much a requirement to have multiple languages under your belt by the time you've finished your undergrad? That worries me a bit, just because those classes tend to take up a lot of space in my schedule and might make it less possible for me to pull off more than one minor since i only have four years of funding. I was planning on just getting competent in Spanish over the next three years and then working on Portuguese or French in grad school.

2. I really haven't taken anywhere near enough classes to have a specific research interest yet, but lately I've been drawn to Labor history and class/social hierarchy. Would a Sociology minor complement that best? I really don't have much experience with social sciences, so i'm not sure what the best choice would be.

[TMP]

Thank you all for the good advice. I'm happy to see that my worries were not entirely justified and especially appreciated advice about exploring your research interests through other disciplines. I just have two more questions though.

1. Is it pretty much a requirement to have multiple languages under your belt by the time you've finished your undergrad? That worries me a bit, just because those classes tend to take up a lot of space in my schedule and might make it less possible for me to pull off more than one minor since i only have four years of funding. I was planning on just getting competent in Spanish over the next three years and then working on Portuguese or French in grad school.

2. I really haven't taken anywhere near enough classes to have a specific research interest yet, but lately I've been drawn to Labor history and class/social hierarchy. Would a Sociology minor complement that best? I really don't have much experience with social sciences, so i'm not sure what the best choice would be.

For Latin America, they do expect strong reading proficiency in Spanish. You can demonstrate this through completing an upper level course in Spanish or use primary sources in Spanish in your writing sample. If they can see the evidence that you can read more than just basic signs, it's fine. Don't worry- most Latin Americanists pick up the other language while in graduate school. It won't be that difficult.

As for your minor, pick one that you're actually interested in. Nobody really looks at minors because they're really only less than 5 classes as opposed to 8-12 classes for the major. Most people choose minors to complement their majors. I knew that I needed a specific 'area studies" minor for my research interests but it wouldn't be enough to convince the PhD admissions committee that I had a solid background. That's why I went for a MA-proving that I was competent in that subject. But of course, that's only because my research interests are ridiculous- extremely long history with multiple languages (and one can only do so much)! You're more fortunate than I am.

[Gene Parmesan]

NEVER apologize for going to a state school or thinking you're less qualified to be at a top tier program. If a university committee doesn't look at your app or take you seriously because you went to a state school, you don't want to be going there anyways.

That being said, you're work has to speak for you and you have to speak for your work. Many people in the profession look down on certain schools or don't take people's background seriously. You have to work at your full potential whether you're at an ivy league school or whether you're at a state school. Work on your statements, work on your gre scores, work on your research questions. Develop your questions/interests intelligently and in conversation with current scholarship. Consider minors and "studies" as they relate to your interests and be ready to defend those choices. Also, there is no harm in considering an MA to tighten your interests and gain some more experience. Find yourself some mentors--yes, mentors in the plural sense. Each will offer you a different perspective. Some will teach you about the profession, others about teach, and others about managing life as a scholar.

If you're considering labor history and class feel free to private message me if you'd like to talk some more about those interests.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Gene Parmesan