Logistics around students' work

[Dal PhDer]

Hello forum users!

I am involved in a class that has recently gotten a new professor and restructured the course assignments. [To preface everything, the prof is a great guy and is super nice, and has so many fantastic ideas and I think the restructuring is really cool!]

I have a few questions regarding the feasibility/ethics of the assignments- because I've never seen a course structured this way and it seems to me that it poses potential problems.

The biggest issue I am concerned about is the intellectual property of the assignments. The class will be broken down into groups of students, and these groups will have to complete two projects together. These projects will form a final document to be given to another department who is 'partnering' with the class. This document will then be used to inform a 'bigger' project/initiative. I don't know the details of how this class is working with the department or exactly how the work will be used, which makes me a bit concerned about how the students' work will be represented. If pieces of these documents are used to form a larger document, each individual students would need to receive acknowledgement, correct? Or would the entire class receive acknowledgement? Are there normally safeguards in place that would ensure that these students' work is not going to be taken and used as someone else's? Have you seen/been apart of a class format like this? What was your experience? Opinion?

The other issue is that one of the assignments require students to interview an individual and write up about it. The general idea is really to give the students a chance to become familiar with both quant and qual methods/skills...but I'm a bit worried about the ethics around this. If the interview was used just for learning purposes, then I feel like ethics wouldn't be an issue, as it's inter-departmental and the information wouldn't be used for anything but learning - normally you don't need REB approval for these types of data gathering. However, since these assignments are apart of this 'bigger' document, this means that we're (prof/me...lets me honest, ME!) is going to have to consult REB and have consenting procedures. Correct? I might be off...This also poses a problem because it hasn't been done, and it's a semester long course. Our REB won't meet again until Oct 8th- it'll probably let us barely get by. But I am not sure the prof has considered this or even thought about it- do I bring it up? Or just let it go? If I let it go and nothing is done, and we run into REB issues, we're screwed...but if I bring it up, I am just adding more to my plate and not really giving the prof the due credit that they've thought about it (it's their second time teaching and first time at this university- I am not sure if they know the policies here).

I guess I am a bit hesitant and worried. I feel like it's building up to be a big clustersmuck. I marked for this class last year, and it was completely different, but worked. I am just worried that this new idea, while awesome, isn't flushed out enough. They even want me to spearhead some of the groups and make up their assignments [manage databases (find them, research them and be the go to person for them), come up with the questions/objectives for their assignments)...and while i don't mind doing it as it's a learning opportunity, they seems to be unaware that such duties fall under a TA (~$22/hr) vs. a marker (~$14/hr. ..me).

Anyways...thoughts? Am I going down with a sinking ship? Should I be worried? Do I voice my concerns, or does it look like I am taking over?.....just another Monday!

[fuzzylogician]

So you have an official position in the class? In that case, I would request a meeting with the instructor and bring these issues up. You could phrase them simply as information you'd like to have in order to inform your students. Honestly I think you shouldn't do work beyond what you're paid for, though I understand that it's hard to say no or to walk away from what seems like a great learning opportunity. The instructor might not know how much you're paid or what your job description is, and I think you should be very honest and clarify this issue immediately. You're right - the way the data is used should be discussed upfront and any possible authorship issues should be agreed upon before you start the project. As for REB, I'd find a way to mention it (e.g., can I have the REB approval number to put on the handout I'm preparing for class, or some such) and see how it goes from there. It's generally best to assume that the professor has done his job and has thought these issues through so I'd start by framing my questions that way. It's not your job to fix a professor's mistakes or even frame questions in a way that assumes they don't know what they're doing, so be careful. All you want to do is get the information about whatever is making you uncomfortable and nothing else.

I've never been involved in a class quite like what you're describing, but I was asked to TA for a class last year whose instructor had a somewhat similar idea - that students would learn methods throughout the class and would then form small groups that would create final projects that could be submitted to a journal for publication. I thought the concept was fraught with potential problems and declined the offer. I'm not sure what came of it, but I can see a number of potential problems with authorship in joint projects by such ad hoc groups.

[Dal PhDer]

Thanks Fuzzy!!

I want to be really careful how I handle the situation because I certainly don't want to come across as me thinking they don't know what they're doing! I did approach them today and mention that the duties that they're asking are what a TA not a marker is doing, and if I am to continue on, the position title will need to be changed. (I give myself a point for attacking a situation with potential conflict head on. I give the members of the GradCafe 1000points for reminding me always that I have to stick up for myself!). As it is now, the department is looking for additional funds to support that position- so it sounds good.

I agree with you that I should approach him carefully about my concerns, as they are truly coming from a spot of nice concern rather than 'I'm a crazy control freak!'. In my mind, I would like to help them get the course off to a great start and have everything in place. I also know I have to realize that the course and its outcome is not my responsibility, and while I might do things differently, it's not my place.

I am glad that you see the authorship delegation as potential issue! Making me feel more confident to bring it up! I know when I was an UG i wouldn't think about authorship and being entitled to have my work being represented/cited appropriately...so I don't want it to go unnoticed!

[rising_star]

Okay, I've seen this kind of thing happen in a couple of classes I've been in and in one book that I read and assigned to my students. Keep in mind though that I'm in the US, not Canada, so all of this could be off for your situation.

The book, FWIW, is On the Make and it's about college students and their nightlife experiences in Philadelphia. Basically, the author had his students (from his courses) record notes and answer questions about their own nightlife experiences and then used that data as the basis for his analysis and the book. I can't remember the details of IRB but, if you can get a hold of the book, there's an appendix that addresses methods. My library has a copy of the ebook so maybe yours does as well.

In the course I took, the instructor got the class IRB approval to do interviews. But, while the interviews were used for a classwide collaborative project, they weren't used for anything else. That said, we did need IRB approval to do them but didn't have to apply individually. I'd imagine that such a procedure exists for this class. Also, depending on how long this whole project has been in the making, it's possible that the larger project already went through IRB and got approval for what the students will be doing in the course.

But really, there are two things that I think you should do. 1) I don't think you should do the work of a TA if you're not being paid as a TA. If you're just there to mark papers, then this whole REB concern falls away. But, since I already know you're going to do the work anyway (you've basically said as much), I'll add this: 2) Talk to the course instructor about the REB and your concerns. Lay it out as being concerned about your ability to explain things to students and/or wanting to understand this process for when you'll be teaching your own courses in the future.

[Dal PhDer]

Thank you for the advice!

I have discussed with the prof the issues around the TA duties and the marker wage, and it was quickly remedied! Yay! I really appreciated them taking charge of it so quickly.

I am meeting with them tomorrow to discuss the course layout. I want to thank you guys for suggesting I bring this to their attention. I completely agree. I guess I'm not use to working with a prof that's just developing a course. For me, I would be completely stressed about all the loose ends, but that's me. My Type A personality needs to let go of the wheel!

Rising_star: thank you for the reference to the book! I am going to check with my library and see if they have it. I figure it would be the perfect thing to bring to the meeting tomorrow!

Thank you again!