rising_star Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Liszt85, you intimated more than once that you should get more money from schools because your wife won't be able to work. In your latest comment, you say that's not what happened at all. Just wanted to point out the contradiction there. Thanks for totally ignoring my point about how while your circumstances may be "special", there are plenty of others that attend graduate school (and that you'll meet regardless of where you go) that have their own "special" circumstances. I don't actually consider begging for money part of getting prepared for graduate school. Getting prepared is finding the best faculty/program, reading things for classes in comps, and figuring out when and where to move. Asking for more money is not the same as those things, in my view. I do appreciate the apology and hope it was sincere. In the future, you really should avoid making such comments about women or you may find yourself the social outcast/pariah of your department/field (which could hurt your career prospects, among other things). In case you think I'm overstating things, just remember that Larry Summers essentially got thrown out of Harvard because of the comments he made about women and science, which the faculty did not like. I think we can agree that it's not legitimate to expect increased funding or any other privileges because you are married/international/have children/in debt/disabled/fill in the blank. You shouldn't assume that you deserve more because you have a special situation--everybody has special situations and difficulties in their lives and schools cannot and should not be expected to be responsible for them (this is a general remark, liszt85, I'm not suggesting that you thought that or wrote anything to the extent in this thread!). Fuzzylogician, thank you for the brilliant summarizing comment. You hit the nail on the head. Everyone has special circumstances and departments are unable to accommodate them all (especially since they'd face litigation in some instances if they did). That is all I've been trying to get liszt85 to realize, however unsuccessfully, throughout this thread.
Snowden12 Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 fuzzylogician wrote: You might as well give it a shot, what have you got to lose? It worked for me with some schools, but unfortunately not with my top choices. But if your programs want you badly enough, maybe you'll succeed. It's at least worth a try. I'm just curious, but how did you approach them? I figured the best person to write would be the program director but I haven't thought out the best strategy yet. Do you go right for it and ask outright for more funding? Or do you beat around the bush and hope he/she might offer you something? I was leaning towards the latter approach. My initial idea was that I would just inquire about possible 2nd year financial aid while noting that it would really help make my decision easier, as school B is already offering help this year. Is that a fair approach or would I be wasting time?
liszt85 Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 And how many times did I tell you that I would have been more than happy to do it had I not had the responsibility of taking care of one more person's financial needs? This is getting extremely frustrating now. BTW, liszt85, you intimated more than once that you should get more money from schools because your wife won't be able to work. In your latest comment, you say that's not what happened at all. Just wanted to point out the contradiction there. I said that was the reason WHY I asked for more money, and did not say that it was why the schools should be OBLIGED to give me money which is something I never said. You seem to have a way with using words in two different ways for the same things that both of us did. You explained your earlier situation as "really just trying to get enough money to house myself, with a roommate,..." and my situation as "you should get more money because your wife won't be able to work..." or "expect the school to give you money because..". So what I wanted to say here was that you did a lousy job at pointing out a contradiction in my posts. I have friends who spend as little as $200-250 per month in LA (!!) on rent because they sleep in a living room with two other people. We're from the same country, with similar backgrounds and with similar dispositions. I can sleep on a couch for 5 years if that's what it takes for me to complete a PhD at the best place possible but I can only do it if I'm single and if another person's life is not involved in these decisions of mine. I'm tired, this is pointless now. Lets agree to disagree forever on this. Feel free to point out all the non existent "contradictions" in my posts. Good luck with the rest of your graduate life.
liszt85 Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 I think we can agree that it's not legitimate to expect increased funding or any other privileges because you are married/international/have children/in debt/disabled/fill in the blank. You shouldn't assume that you deserve more because you have a special situation--everybody has special situations and difficulties in their lives and schools cannot and should not be expected to be responsible for them (this is a general remark, liszt85, I'm not suggesting that you thought that or wrote anything to the extent in this thread!). Fuzzylogician, thank you for the brilliant summarizing comment. You hit the nail on the head. Especially that part about : (this is a general remark, liszt85, I'm not suggesting that you thought that or wrote anything to the extent in this thread!).
rising_star Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Fuzzylogician, thank you for the brilliant summarizing comment. You hit the nail on the head. Especially that part about : Figuring out how not to plagiarize, in addition to how not to make disparaging, sexist remarks, will serve you well in graduate school. Representing someone else's words as your own, as you did in the quote above, is plagiarism, since you wrote exactly what I wrote. I hope you decide to do what's best for you and I hope you realize that consistently needling other people (in an effort to prove something that isn't there) will not take you far in life. As I've said before, you made it sound like the schools were being mean to you by not giving you more money in consideration of your wife. As I said, I think from the beginning, there's a lot more to the stipend calculus than just that. I'm glad that maybe, maybe you've come to realize this. Actually, I realized something just now. My point has always been that you shouldn't be upset or decide not to go to a school because they won't offer you enough money to support you AND your wife. When I asked for more money, it was to support ME. Do you see the difference? The school wasn't offering enough money for one person, whereas you're trying to negotiate money for two. There is a difference there, whether or not you see or choose to acknowledge it. One vs. two. If a program offered me enough money to live on (regardless of whether that meant living with roommates), then I did not ask for more money. You just want enough money for two when a program's obligation is to you, and not your spouse. To me, that would be like me asking for more money to cover my medical expenses just because it's something I have to pay for and may make things tight monetarily. I think you might get answers more akin to your liking over in IHOG, where other international students could tell you how they negotiated the partner working issue. I also want to say that there are several international students in my program who came with partners and whom they support on what they get from the program plus a small amount ($2-3K per year) in loans. I'm sure you'll lambast me and say that obviously those students are nothing like you but keep in mind that they also have non-working spouses for visa reasons, at least for the first year. Many have had success getting their partner a visa that allows working in subsequent years.
liszt85 Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Actually, I realized something just now. My point has always been that you shouldn't be upset or decide not to go to a school because they won't offer you enough money to support you AND your wife. When I asked for more money, it was to support ME. Do you see the difference? Oh yea, I see it now. I should probably ask my newly wed wife to leave me alone and to let me go do my grad studies in peace. The school wasn't offering enough money for one person, whereas you're trying to negotiate money for two. There is a difference there, whether or not you see or choose to acknowledge it. I don't understand what's troubling you when I'd had a frank discussion about this with the director of graduate studies at this particular school who seemed to understand every single word I'd told him. My friends in the sciences in the same city get about $5-6K more than I do and I was not asking them to double their offer to support my wife AND me. Do you see the difference between that and asking for 1-2K more?? I guess not. I also want to say that there are several international students in my program who came with partners and whom they support on what they get from the program plus a small amount ($2-3K per year) in loans. I'm sure you'll lambast me and say that obviously those students are nothing like you but keep in mind that they also have non-working spouses for visa reasons, at least for the first year. Many have had success getting their partner a visa that allows working in subsequent years. If you want to start being useful around here, why don't you tell me about the above? How did they manage to get their partners visas with work permits? I have asked a lot of former international grad students who had spouses. A change in visa status is possible only if your spouse is able to find some work or if he/she can get admitted as a student. If its the latter, then it needs to come with a tuition waiver at the very least even if they don't offer any stipend at all since now she'd be eligible to work 20hours a week. If you have an idea about that, post here if you'd like to start offering useful advice. Try to keep out details about your forecasts on how far I'd go in life.
fuzzylogician Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 rising_star and liszt85, stop. Please. This has gotten beyond ridiculous by now. I'm just curious, but how did you approach them? I figured the best person to write would be the program director but I haven't thought out the best strategy yet. Do you go right for it and ask outright for more funding? Or do you beat around the bush and hope he/she might offer you something? I was leaning towards the latter approach. My initial idea was that I would just inquire about possible 2nd year financial aid while noting that it would really help make my decision easier, as school B is already offering help this year. Is that a fair approach or would I be wasting time? I talked to the grad directors at the schools while I was visiting. I said that I really liked the program but other programs offered me a lot more money and I was concerned that the offer I got won't be enough for me to live off. I asked if there was a possibility to get some of my moving expenses covered (moving from overseas, it'll be expensive) or if there was summer funding I could get. It ended so that they couldn't guarantee in advance that I'll get additional summer funding, but they said (and the grad students confirmed) that at least until this year, whoever wanted to work in the summer found something to do. Since I'm an international and need the department's help to find employment, that was important info for me and I decided that it was enough. The top programs I applied to have a policy to fund all grads equally, so I didn't expect an outright increase in my stipend anyway. I'm no expert on what's the right way to ask for increased funding. Personally I wouldn't beat around the bush too much, but who's to say it's not the better approach? I think that starting off by inquiring about 2yr funding and mentioning that other programs have offered you that is a good way to go. It won't be a waste of time even if you don't succeed--it'll be time well spent.
rising_star Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 If you want to start being useful around here, why don't you tell me about the above? How did they manage to get their partners visas with work permits? I have asked a lot of former international grad students who had spouses. A change in visa status is possible only if your spouse is able to find some work or if he/she can get admitted as a student. If its the latter, then it needs to come with a tuition waiver at the very least even if they don't offer any stipend at all since now she'd be eligible to work 20hours a week. If you have an idea about that, post here if you'd like to start offering useful advice. Try to keep out details about your forecasts on how far I'd go in life. The relevant discussions aren't hard to find, if you look. Check IHOG or The Lobby or use the "search" feature on the site.
sonnyday Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 rising_star and liszt85, stop. Please. This has gotten beyond ridiculous by now. Yes! Once you start debating semantics, the argument's been long over. (I suspect they are having loads of fun though).
Reinventing Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 This is a tough situation for many, I think. In once worked with someone from another country who was recruited to work in the US--and later found out her spouse was unable to work in the new country. They were not expecting this, and unfortunately in their situation, not much could be done. I do hope the situation works out better for you; as I know you're not expecting much--just enough to help you wiggle through. It's a shame--it's something a lot of us deal with in different shapes and forms (trailing spouses, kids, other dependents), and it's nice every now and then to be dealt a kind hand.
fuzzylogician Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 (I suspect they are having loads of fun though). Possibly. But they're making the rest of us, who are actually trying to have a meaningful discussion and help the OP, suffer :| .
liszt85 Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 This is a tough situation for many, I think. In once worked with someone from another country who was recruited to work in the US--and later found out her spouse was unable to work in the new country. They were not expecting this, and unfortunately in their situation, not much could be done. I do hope the situation works out better for you; as I know you're not expecting much--just enough to help you wiggle through. It's a shame--it's something a lot of us deal with in different shapes and forms (trailing spouses, kids, other dependents), and it's nice every now and then to be dealt a kind hand. Thank you for one of the few kind posts in here. A breath of fresh air. Turns out I might in all probability be rejecting a MUCH higher funding package (PhD) and go into debt (to pay mandatory fees that are not part of the waiver and also for supporting living expenses once my spouse gets there), leave my spouse behind in my country at least for a few semesters (I'll leave a few weeks after our wedding and this is the solution that she proposed to me, although with a heavy heart. Rising star might disagree because she knows such a lot about my life, but my girl loves me enough to make sacrifices), to be able to do a MS which would offer me work closer to my research interests and then apply again to PhD programs 2 years down the line so that I stand a better chance of getting into my top choice(s) (to which I was unable to make it this time). This after all the assumptions that were thrown at me over here when all I was talking about was one specific school in a highly expensive city and about a 6 year commitment (where such sacrifices would have been impossible). I'm sure I'll face some stupid juvenile argument again but since so many of you are fed up with it, I'll try my best not to respond anymore. Try, I will.
Reinventing Posted March 31, 2009 Posted March 31, 2009 (Rooting for peace. ) Anyway, it sounds like you and your signficant other can be flexible with the end goal in mind; so that helps. It's not the best situation, I know, but some couples can manage okay if the end goal is worthwhile to both. I hope it all works out.
GoAppMath Posted April 2, 2009 Posted April 2, 2009 I apologize if this question was answered somewhere in the thread -- I skipped a lot of the posts. I am considering a school that has offered me funding (yet no summer funding), but just barely covers rent and such. It would be great if there was summer funding, or a larger entrance scholarship (already offered $3000). Is it wrong of me to try to negotiate the scholarship amount, but if they are unable to provide more, still accept their offer? I asked an advisor and he mentioned that unless I plan on saying NO if they cannot pay more, then I should not ask. Otherwise, it will look like I am in it for the money. I do have an offer from another university, which pays more and provides summer funding. I want to mention this to the school above, but feel like I will sending a "match-their-offer-or-I-will-attend-this-other-school" type of message. I am unsure of which school to go to though! Any thoughts or comments would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!
liszt85 Posted April 2, 2009 Posted April 2, 2009 I apologize if this question was answered somewhere in the thread -- I skipped a lot of the posts. I am considering a school that has offered me funding (yet no summer funding), but just barely covers rent and such. It would be great if there was summer funding, or a larger entrance scholarship (already offered $3000). Is it wrong of me to try to negotiate the scholarship amount, but if they are unable to provide more, still accept their offer? I asked an advisor and he mentioned that unless I plan on saying NO if they cannot pay more, then I should not ask. Otherwise, it will look like I am in it for the money. I do have an offer from another university, which pays more and provides summer funding. I want to mention this to the school above, but feel like I will sending a "match-their-offer-or-I-will-attend-this-other-school" type of message. I am unsure of which school to go to though! Any thoughts or comments would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! I'll tell you what I know from my experience. People may disagree with me. Here's what I did. I contacted the DGS of the school (a very good one that is a good research fit for me) and told him that I might have some financial worries because the city is a very expensive one and I'd have to support my spouse too. So he said he understood completely and then gave me details about their position and ended up telling me that there existed no possibility for them to offer me any extra money in exchange for any extra work because extra work opportunities were very rare and would be allowed only in extremely exceptional cases. He and I always agree that academically the school and I would fit each other very well but that he understands very well if I have to consider all these financial matters as its important for a graduate student to remain as free from extra financial worries as possible (though like many people have suggested, a grad student in the humanities will always have financial worries). I do not know about mentioning the other school's funding, I did not do that. I only wanted enough money to get by in that particular city. My advice to you is to do the same, do not mention explicitly about the other school's name and funding. You could say "I'm considering other offers which offer attractive funding deals but I really think I'd be happy academically at your school and am just exploring options that might give me a little bit more to live on in this city, especially since I do not have guaranteed summer funding. I would love to make this work" Your call.. just telling you what I'd have done.
tinyspark Posted April 3, 2009 Posted April 3, 2009 Two friends of mine applied for the same program. Both got in. Neither got funding. One friend whined about how unfair it was and told them if she didn't get funding, she wouldn't accept. The other friend told them she was still excited about the program regardless of the lack of funding, but asked if they could please reconsider if something became available - sure enough, within a couple of weeks, they contacted her to tell her they had secured funding for her. Following up and being persistent can't hurt. Good luck to you!
Huskie Posted April 6, 2009 Posted April 6, 2009 I was just wondering if anyone here has had any success in requesting further aid after the initial aid package? I really want to attend a particular grad school but the aid package I was offered was primarily loans and I've already got a significant amount of undergrad loans to deal with as it is. I was hoping some of you might have some suggestions on how to go about asking for further aid or if the package I've recieved is the most I can expect to recieve.
Snowden12 Posted April 7, 2009 Posted April 7, 2009 I was just wondering if anyone here has had any success in requesting further aid after the initial aid package? I really want to attend a particular grad school but the aid package I was offered was primarily loans and I've already got a significant amount of undergrad loans to deal with as it is. I was hoping some of you might have some suggestions on how to go about asking for further aid or if the package I've recieved is the most I can expect to recieve. Well, I wish I had a success story to report...but no luck. I wrote the dean of admissions to ask about 2nd year funding. I explained that I would love to attend their program, but without any financial aid, it would be very difficult. I said that I respected their decision about not funding me for the 1st year and was interested in whether I could get assistance the following year if I proved worthy. I was hoping, obviously, that he'd look into helping me for this year as well. I got a very polite email back saying that they were sorry but funding was generally offered only in the 1st year, so I was unlikely to get any next year if I didn't get an offer this year. He mentioned that most of their students work full time in addition to attending classes and he sent me the appropriate links for the Stafford Loans. He did explain that this was an especially tough year because of the large applicant pool and all. All in all, I can't say I was upset with the decision. He was polite, helpful, etc....he just didn't have the reply I'd hoped for. That being said, perhaps someone else will have better luck.
rufzilla Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 Hi all, So I just received word that I am going to receive a TA-ship for my MA, which comes with a full tuition waiver and about a $14k stipend/ year. My questions are: Is there any way to get more money, either from the school (fellowship, scholarships, etc.) or outside funding? Would I even be able or be eligible to get more scholarship money from outside sources/school if I am already receiving a full tuition waiver? Is there any need to apply to something like FAFSA? It's not that I'm ungrateful for the amount of money I'm receiving (I'm actually really happy about it!), but in these tough economic times I just figure its better to find out all the different kinds of opportunities that may be out there. Any help you guys have about the matter would be really appreciated!
TulipOHare Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 Is there any need to apply to something like FAFSA? Unless you are really truly dirt poor, the FAFSA will not get you any free money (Pell grants). It will get you federal loans, though, and these are generally the best deal in student loans.
rufzilla Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 Is it possible to get summer funding if you have been admitted for Fall '09 or do you have to be an admitted student, have taken classes, etc? Has anyone ever got summer funding before their enrolled semester actually started? If so, how do you go about it?
rufzilla Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 I would, if that is what it would take to get summer funding (I'm pretty sure the pay gained would be at least 2-3 more than what I could make at other places). Otherwise, because the program is structured in a set way (take class A first semester, class B second semester, so on and so forth), I wouldn't. Was just wondering if it would be considered a little audacious to ask if it were possible considering that I'm not formally enrolled yet (rec'd acceptance and news about funding from the graduate director, but not yet rec'd formal letter).
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