Somewhat lenghty, but advice needed

[grimmiae]

background: So after I graduated in the spring of 2012 I think my head was spinning slightly. My undergraduate journey was over and I was surprised with myself because I started to question myself if spending 5 more years school was something I could withstand. Although it was something that I had planned on, it still felt daunting. I began to look into other career options. The second best fit (I thought at the time) was occupational therapy (you make money, and you're done with school in about 2 years and I have extensive background working with the disabled).

Fast foward to Sept/Oct. I am taking anatomy and physiology to fufill the pre reqs for OT. Then something happened, I realized that this was nothing that I really wanted to do. I am not one of those people that can just choose a career just for the salary. I really missed doing research (this is an understatment really). Fast forward to now- I talked with my old advisor, and am trying to sift through her advice. I have a number of strong ties in my psych department, but the thing is- they all give me such different advice.

Her advice is that since I am rushed to apply

1) find programs with later application deadlines (no getting around that). 2) consider masters programs because they do tend to have later deadlines

That is what I feel iffy about. I don't know if it is just a bias that has been ingrained in me from other professors or if the APA has also assisted in building this belief (I think there is some article on this topic lurking out there)- a part of me does feel as though getting my terminal masters before the Phd does hurt me. I feel like I have seen this on these boards too-masters students who struggle (despite 4.0s) to get into Phd programs.

3) she also brought up the idea that if I wait till next fall that this could also hurt my application because some ad comms may think okay well why'd she wait so long?

And lastly this is where is stand for my competitiveness-

State College

3.7 Cum, psych 3.8

going on 3 years of research experience, 2 independent, 1 group project, 2 years reasearch assistant, 1/2 as lab coordinator, 2 posters at local conference, designed undergrad research journal

Psi Chi

tutored psych, including intro, stats, physiological etc etc

...and I have to retake the gre. I've been scoring around a 310 on practice exams just starting.

Other notes: my research focus is shifted once again. I think that Health psychology is a nice fit at this point. I am interested in programs that are extremely research focused. Still narrowing down my research interests.

Thoughts?

Edited November 8, 2012 by grimmiae

[TakeruK]

I think you still have plenty of time. You have about 5 weeks until Dec 15, which is the most common deadline. It should not take this long to put together a grad school application, if you really work hard.

I think the toughest part will to be to sort through the list of schools and finding good fits. Try to do this within a week and also schedule meetings with other profs you know (i.e. those who would write you a letter) in order to ask them for letters and get their thoughts/input on which schools have good fits for you. If you do this within a week, they will have 4 weeks before Dec 15 deadline, which is about the right amount of time. Dec 1 deadlines are tighter since it's only 3 weeks away but if you have strong connections with your profs, they would be able to pull it off for you (it should only take them like 1 hour to actually write it). In addition, if your profs need a bit more time for the earlier deadlines, consider contacting the schools you're applying to and asking for an extension on the LORs -- usually they are okay with this.

You still have time to put everything together! I started my applications about this time last year. I thought my earliest deadline was Dec 9 but then I found out for one school, the deadline was Dec 1 for international students. I found this out on like Nov 25!! But the school was okay with transcripts, test scores, and LORs arriving late as long as I had my actual application in on time!

Another tough thing might be the GRE -- if you are not ready to take it within 1-2 weeks, it might be the biggest constraint. In bigger cities, the GRE tests are held every day so maybe you will have to travel in order to get a test date soon.

If you really really want to try for grad school next year, then the only down side to doing all this is a lot of application money, effort, and probably stress! But at this point, you might as well apply to everything and then wait for the outcome in order to decide what to do next Fall.

In my opinion though, it's not that bad if you take a year off between undergrad and grad school. It would really help you though if you could do something research related in fall 2013 if you end up applying for Fall 2014 instead.

[grimmiae]

Yes, in between studying for the GRE, and looking up schools that are good fits, I think I can still make the deadlines. Actually, I think December 15th is cutting it close, most of my programs deadlines are around the end of December or Some are even in January and Feb. So even if it is a few programs that are good fits that is better than none. I am doing something research related, if I do not make deadlines, and have to re-apply I will most likely continue with my current project coordinating a lab and the project will hopefully get published.

Comments on Masters vs. Phd appreciated.

[stereopticons]

Well, on the Masters vs PhD front...

I did a Masters program. And I think it was very good for me. I was not originally as psych major, and switched after my sophomore year of undergrad, so I really only had 2 years of being IN psychology, if that makes sense. When I graduated, I had an idea of what I wanted to do, but it was pretty vague. Unsurprisingly, I did not get in to any PhD programs but did get accepted into the Masters program and William and Mary. The program really helped me figure out what I wanted to research more specifically. And I have two publications, with several more under review, and a ton of conference presentations. Even though I didn't get accepted into a PhD program last cycle, I still wouldn't change my experience.

I don't know how having a masters degree actually affected the application process for me. It's really hard to tell. But everyone else in my cohort at WM got into at least one (most got into several) PhD programs when they applied last year.

Anyway, I say try to apply to both. Apply for PhD programs and if you don't get in, you have Masters programs.

[memyselfandcoffee]

Hi, First off, as a mature student, I can say having done nothing impressive in my 20's hasn't hurt me, I am from a different country, but still if you have to wait a year, could you not get a job like Ra or Ta or something like that, that will just add to what is my opinion an impressive cv. I think you can explain it anyway. I for one can relate, anyway, felt the very same when I finished my undergrad, considered OT, speech and language therapy, ect, for the same reasons you did, a cushy job that I could enter in near as opposed to distant future. I took some time off and then did a postgrad diploma, I needed it for the psyc credits and haven't looked back since.

I think you should apply this year aswell, though, if nothing for the practice, 5 weeks is a decent amount of time. But one word of caution, dont take something your not sure about just becuase you have an offer. Also maybe you should consider applying outside US, like Uk or Ireland, from what I read on here, it seems like we are less stringent over here.

good luck!

[grimmiae]

I am already running a study/coordinating a lab for my former advisor. If I don't get accepted this round, hopefully by the next time I apply I will have a publication to add. I looked into the program at William and Mary, looks very nice fit for me. With a later deadline.

[PsychGirl1]

Here's my opinion: don't rush it. I'm in a master's program and I'm loving it- it really helped me narrow down my research interests (I didn't major in psych, but did have a good number of psych classes and research experience). The department I'm in is quite competitive for PhD spots, and the PhD students tend to be older (like 25-26, some up to 30 when they start), and there tends to be a big maturity, professionalism, and experience gap between the master's students and the PhD students. Taking the time to get work experience, get publications, and figure out your research interests will only help you- both in the short-term and the long-term. There are one or two people almost straight out of school in my cohort, and honestly, you can tell right away.

If you're not even positive of your research interests, what is the rush of trying to frantically apply now? You still have to ask for LORs, and none of the profs I know would be very happy about you asking in November for deadlines in a few weeks. You will probably be sloppier with the rest of the application than you would otherwise- personal statement, short answers, CV, etc. And apps are expensive- when all is said and done, probably around $125-250 each, and if you get interviews, that's again flight and hotel costs, up to $500 depending where it is. If you apply to handful of programs, you're suddenly talking thousands of dollars potentially. All of this for a fairly small probability that you will get in, given that you will be (essentially) applying right out of undergrad, and if you do get in, that it's a 5-6 year commitment.

I'm not trying to be negative- I'm just saying think this through. I asked tons of people advice when I was figuring it out, and everybody had different advice (usually depending on their own career path). I collected all the advice and ultimately went with my gut and I couldn't be more happy with my decision. And as far as your indecision on master's, here is what I think: a lot of people end up in master's programs because they weren't "good enough" for PhD programs. So yes, some of them will have trouble getting into a PhD program at the end, because their stats, experience, and potential aren't high enough. But master's programs used in the correct way- for example, figuring out your research interests, getting publications, and "trying out" the PhD route- are only a great addition to your resume and your personal statement. No professor is going to look down on you in your application if you tell them that you did the master's program to finalize your research interests and solidify the fact that this is your passion and this is what you want to do for the rest of your life. However, they will look down on you if they sense even a tiny bit that you're not 10000% sure that this is what you are committed to, regardless of what experiences you've had.

If I were you (and again, listen to all the advice people give you and then go with your gut- this is just my opinion), I'd take some night classes, find opportunities within your current research to get more posters and publications, try volunteering in a different lab with a health psych focus, study for the GREs thoroughly to get the best score you possibly can, and start making a list of programs for next year. As long as you do productive things within your gap year, and you address those in your personal statement, there's no harm in waiting.

[TakeruK]

If you're not even positive of your research interests, what is the rush of trying to frantically apply now? You still have to ask for LORs, and none of the profs I know would be very happy about you asking in November for deadlines in a few weeks. You will probably be sloppier with the rest of the application than you would otherwise- personal statement, short answers, CV, etc. And apps are expensive- when all is said and done, probably around $125-250 each, and if you get interviews, that's again flight and hotel costs, up to $500 depending where it is. If you apply to handful of programs, you're suddenly talking thousands of dollars potentially. All of this for a fairly small probability that you will get in, given that you will be (essentially) applying right out of undergrad, and if you do get in, that it's a 5-6 year commitment.

This is a good point -- I guess I was writing my advice from my experience/field, where we definitely do not pay for interviews etc. Only one school wanted to interview and we did it by Skype. When it came to visiting the programs, they paid for flight/taxis/buses/transportation, accommodations (or I stayed with another student), food, everything. Also, not every school required official transcripts so that saved some money too. But I do agree that applying does cost a lot of money -- not counting the costs of taking the GREs, it probably costs on average $100 per school.

But master's programs used in the correct way- for example, figuring out your research interests, getting publications, and "trying out" the PhD route- are only a great addition to your resume and your personal statement. No professor is going to look down on you in your application if you tell them that you did the master's program to finalize your research interests and solidify the fact that this is your passion and this is what you want to do for the rest of your life. However, they will look down on you if they sense even a tiny bit that you're not 10000% sure that this is what you are committed to, regardless of what experiences you've had.

I definitely agree with this! I also did a Masters first, but I was in the Canadian system where everyone does a 2 year masters followed by a 3-4 year PhD. But I made sure to explain my reasons for doing a masters first (wanted to make sure I actually liked grad school before committing to a 5-6 year program) and I don't think it hurt me in the applications. Unfortunately, many terminal masters programs in the US are expensive (as they are not funded) so in my opinion, I would prefer to pay the extra $500-$1000 to apply to PhD programs now than pay $20,000 for a 1 year terminal masters.

Additionally, you could also consider Canadian masters programs. I don't mean to force Canadian programs onto you but just letting you know that Canadian schools will fund their Masters students (Masters students in Canada and pre-quals (years 1-2) PhD students in the US are basically equivalent). Additionally, many Canadian schools have deadlines between Jan 15 and Mar 1, and they often do not require the GRE. Just another option to think about, if you're willing to go outside of the US. A Canadian masters often do not count for anything when you start a PhD program but neither would a terminal masters in the US.

[grimmiae]

If you're not even positive of your research interests, what is the rush of trying to frantically apply now?

The issue is not that I dont know my research interests. Broadly speaking I am sticking to: impression formation, stigma, the self, attitude formation and behavior change. The problem I have at the moment is finding programs that combine these interests with sexual health which is another interest. I have found one person who does research which is the most ideal fit but the rest of their program is VERY heavy on biological factors which is not something I am at all interested in. So I just feel torn as to whether or not I should abandon the sexual health piece of my research interests. Ultimately, anything related to stigma is the most important thing to me.

And for a short period fo time I felt very apprehensive about going into social psychology because it is so competitive and even if I make it all the way to Phd, then what? The job market is terrible but the more I think about it I can't see myself doing anything else which is also frightening.

I asked tons of people advice when I was figuring it out, and everybody had different advice (usually depending on their own career path).

Me too, it has been mind numbing. I think I am going to stop doing so and just go with my gut instinct. But you're right, on the "depending on their own career path" when you ask questions like these people can only answer from their own experience anyways.

But master's programs used in the correct way- for example, figuring out your research interests, getting publications, and "trying out" the PhD route- are only a great addition to your resume and your personal statement.

I think this is the best option available at this point. I am doing some research at my alma mater but it is nothing new and challenging that adds something significantly different to my resume. Bottom line is here my options are very limited, I have looked into everything it feels. Alot of the deadlines for masters programs are in Feb. So yes my intuition is nudging me in that direction. Thank you very much for a dissenting opinion, it was helpful. I have found a few which I think I am very competitive for, with full funding. Thanks again for all the feed back.

[PsychGirl1]

I understand your difficulty with finding someone who does both of your research interests. What I'd suggest is, when it comes time to find profs and ask if they are taking new students, email professors who do stigma work and talking about how you want to do stigma work (overlapping with what they do in their lab) as well as push the research towards sexual health. In my experience, I think as long as the foundation of what you're studying is the same (i.e. stigma), they'd be happy/interested in having you push the research also towards a new topic (i.e. sexual health). Doesn't hurt to ask in your "prospective student" email- in my experience people have written back with very detailed responses (ex. "i do a little of that, but mostly this, but we do have a trial coming up soon looking at that, so i think it could be a good fit"). At the same time, you might want to look at profs who study sexual health and mention your interest with it overlapping with stigma, or you might want to look at schools with strong public health programs who support integrative and cross-departmental research (they do exist!).

If you're thinking of a master's program, it can't hurt to apply and then give yourself a few more months to figure things out before you have to make any decision. Some programs (threads have been on this board with lists) don't charge tuition, but some that do can still offer some funding opportunities like teaching, admin work, doing assessments, etc.

Edited November 11, 2012 by PsychGirl1

[PsychGirl1]

(I mention public health because I'm actually doing a study looking at risky sexual behavior (actually and stigma!), and a lot of the background research we found on sexual behavior actually came from the public health sphere- we actually had problems finding good measures from the Psychology world to look at sexual behavior and sexual health. Obviously this might change depending what eactly you're interested in specific to sexual health.)

[grazzle]

I just wanted to add something that I heard Donald Asher say once at a seminar: "Applying to grad school is hard; you want to get it right the first time."

I really can't stand that guy, but having just finished my apps, I agree with this statement completely. This is not a process that I want to do twice. I would rather chew nails that go through another round of apps (and I'm not even through this one). So If I were you, I would wait and save your sanity and give it your very very best shot next year.

[watson]

You have multiple options here, not just applying to PhD or Masters programs.

You have a strong background in psych and taking time off is now the norm, so I wouldn't worry about that. Generally, I think doing a masters first (if you want to eventually get a PhD) is a great idea if 1) you don't have a psych background, 2) you're really unsure of your research interests....usually I think this is the route if you have both those issues. But since you have background you might be better off getting a full-time job as an RA or lab manager. It'll pay better, no tuition, you'll still get research experience, and time to figure out your research interests. Honestly, I'd probably not apply to PhD programs this cycle simply because you need to have your research interests really figured out (1. to get you into a program, 2. to make sure you'll be HAPPY once you're there for the next 5-7 yrs)

[grimmiae]

My plan now is just to be very selective in which masters program I choose, making sure that they are very research focused and focused on preparing students for for going on to get their Phd. The ones I am applying to have full funding. If I don't looking for a lab position would be another option. I am just taking my chances. In the end I think that is all I can really do. But ultimately I see that I have to leave my current location if I want to valuable reserach experience.