Phd in Computer Science at a different(better, maybe Top) school after Masters

[cs85.amar]

Hi Guys,

I am currently a second year Masters student(International) at a university ranked between 40 - 50(in the U.S) for it's Computer Science program. I will be graduating next semester and like most of the masters student I was planning to take up a job at a decent organization. But, since few days I have been thinking about pursuing Phd and I haven't been able to make up my mind.

My undergraduate GPA is average with no research experience. My GRE score is low 1200( old pattern). I have about 3 years of industry experience.

Now, here's the good part. I have worked hard in M.S and my Masters CGPA would most likely be around 3.8. I have worked on a couple of research projects and will most likely end up publishing one paper as first author and a second author on another one. (They have been submitted not accepted/published it, but I am confident)

Now, given my low GRE and not so great undergrad academics what chance do I stand for phd program at Top CS schools(Rank < 15) ? I can get a decent reco from my Prof. Would that be enough or I must work with some another prof to get another decent reco ?

Should I attempt GRE again ? That would be a pain, my god .

I can easily get in to the Phd program at my current university but it is my dream to make it to a Top CS program in the country.

What else do I need to do ? Comments and suggestions please

Thank you

[SANDIEGO]

Hey, sounds like you're in a pretty good spot already with a good masters GPA and research. I would say keep working hard on the research part, but make sure you get good recommendations from people other than just your adviser! You'll need 3 in total and you want them all to be good. After that, there's no guarantees you'll get into a top program, but that will improve your chances, so just shoot for the moon and hope for the best

[cs85.amar]

Thanks SANDIEGO,

That is encouraging. I will work on those points. The part that I am more worried about is my low GRE score and average undergrad acads.

[victor.s.andrei]

I will be graduating next semester and like most of the masters student I was planning to take up a job at a decent organization. But, since few days I have been thinking about pursuing Phd and I haven't been able to make up my mind.

Be careful. Having a Ph.D. can hurt your employability outside of academia.

[Snoq]

Be careful. Having a Ph.D. can hurt your employability outside of academia.

That's definately not true. You will definitely not going to be a simple programmer but that's for better. You will end up having more possible positions at any company or research lab.

[cs85.amar]

I get what you are trying to say victor but I agree more with ChristN on that. But anyways that's not the part I am worried about right now.

[cs85.amar]

Can I have more experienced views on my concerns ? Has anybody been through such a situation ? Let me put my concerns again.

1. Will a low GRE score & average undergrad acads hurt my chances of getting in to a Top Program ?

2. What is it that I MUST do ensure/ increase my chances?

Thanks,

[ssk2]

Why not retake the GRE test?

[cs85.amar]

I can. But it will be a huge pain considering I still have one semester to go in my Masters and I have to also focus completion of my research. So, I wanted to know if it would be absolutely necessary or if I can offset it ?

[SANDIEGO]

A good masters GPA will do good in offsetting a poor undergrad GPA. As for GRE, well, I would of course recommend re-taking if at all possible. It's hard to say whether you must re-take it or not, I think if a professor saw you as a great fit they would overlook something like the GRE score (I would say the GRE is one of the least important pieces of your application for a PhD in CS). Personally I would re-take it, and if I was too busy/overloaded with work to do a good job on it, I'd consider applying the following year instead.

[Azazel]

I can. But it will be a huge pain considering I still have one semester to go in my Masters and I have to also focus completion of my research. So, I wanted to know if it would be absolutely necessary or if I can offset it ?

You have the right idea; if your time is limited, don't re-take the GRE. Research is far more important. Focus on getting good research experience and letters of recommendation, and those things will maximize your chances at top schools.

If the admissions committee sees a wonderful LOR from someone they trust, no one will care about GRE scores.

[victor.s.andrei]

That's definately not true. You will definitely not going to be a simple programmer but that's for better. You will end up having more possible positions at any company or research lab.

If I were you, I would not look down on the "simple programmer" - a lot of those folks actually do the stuff that makes this world run.

A Ph.D. will open up some doors - like at research labs - and close other doors.

Just be careful and know what you're getting yourself into.

[hvasilev]

It won't close any doors. You live in a lie.

[fdhkjal]

It won't close any doors. You live in a lie.

Unfortunately, this isn't true. If you get a PhD in computer science, with an emphasis in say databases, then only employers who are interested in database people will want to hire you. The going rate for a PhD is higher than someone with a bachelor's degree, thus companies that want an entry/mid/rank-and-file level programmer, won't look at you. If, for example, you wanted to get a job in the video game industry, after finishing your PhD in databases, you would have a significantly harder time than if you simply had a bachelor's or master's degree.

This is normally called being "overqualified." International students especially tend to not understand the concept of being overqualified. Additionally, your time would be better spent in industry if you ultimately want to do industry. Only do a PhD if you want to be a professor or a researcher...

[cs85.amar]

Guys,

Thanks for pointing out the concerns & debating over about Jobs post Phd. But frankly, that is not really helpful here and slightly offtrack as it is not my primary concern. We could probably create another thread for that discussion.

Thanks again

[fdhkjal]

Guys,

Thanks for pointing out the concerns & debating over about Jobs post Phd. But frankly, that is not really helpful here and slightly offtrack as it is not my primary concern. We could probably create another thread for that discussion.

Thanks again

Hah, went on a slight tangent there.

As far as your chances, I would say you could definitely get into the top 25. You obviously need 3 recs, but if the one you have is top notch (the professor praises you in the highest light, and is a leader in the field), then that's all you really need (quality over quantity). Personally, I would recommend waiting a year before applying. If you are confident that your papers will be accepted, then applying with 2 accepted papers (especially at top conferences with <20% acceptance rates), your chances are immensely improved over applying with 2 *submitted* papers.

The GRE isn't all that important, however, depending on the spread of that 1200 (is it 600 Q/ 600 V or 750 Q/ 450 V, etc) you might want to take it again. Although, in general, I wouldn't consider this a huge deal.

[victor.s.andrei]

It won't close any doors. You live in a lie.

 

Uh huh. Sure.

http://ask.slashdot.org/story/13/01/06/1649232/ask-slashdot-advice-for-getting-tech-career-back-on-track

 

"After the dotcom bubble burst so long ago,when tech jobs were so scarce, I went back to school and finished my PhD in Physics. They lied — there really is no shortage of scientists. Before the downturn I was a product manager for home networking equipment. Since getting the degree I have been program/project manager for small DoD and NASA instrumentation programs. I desperately want back into network equipment product management, but my networking tech skills aren't up to date. I find networking technology absolutely trivial and have been retraining on my own, but hiring managers see the gap and the PhD and run screaming. I'm more than willing to start over in network admin but can't even get considered for that. Suggestions?"

[victor.s.andrei]

Unfortunately, this isn't true. If you get a PhD in computer science, with an emphasis in say databases, then only employers who are interested in database people will want to hire you. The going rate for a PhD is higher than someone with a bachelor's degree, thus companies that want an entry/mid/rank-and-file level programmer, won't look at you. If, for example, you wanted to get a job in the video game industry, after finishing your PhD in databases, you would have a significantly harder time than if you simply had a bachelor's or master's degree.

This is normally called being "overqualified." International students especially tend to not understand the concept of being overqualified. Additionally, your time would be better spent in industry if you ultimately want to do industry. Only do a PhD if you want to be a professor or a researcher...

 

Sorry for bringing up an old thread, but I finally saw your comment.

Thank you for vindicating my comment - which drew a few negative points from people here.

[SANDIEGO]

I don't agree with what's been said about having a harder time finding a job as a "programmer" etc. with a PhD. The only reason that might be the case is they're worried about having to pay you more since you've had more education. Worst case scenario you can either omit your PhD or just say you're willing to get the same pay as someone without it.

IMO a PhD is going to broaden your possibilities in terms of job opportunities, since you've reached a level of expertise that few others have. (academic/industry research, consulting, higher-level engineering positions) Just because you're specialized in, for example, "systems" doesn't disqualify you from jobs.. it just disqualifies you from those jobs that require an overwhelmingly different CS specialty, like "theory". Your overarching degree is still a Computer Science degree.

Regarding your comment on "international students not understanding overqualification", this is because, frankly, for them, it's not overqualification at all. With a PhD from a good institution in the states, they're pretty set when they go back to their home country with a guaranteed job, either in the government, academia, etc. which they might not otherwise have.

I am not saying a PhD is always a good thing. If your objective is to maximize your income, a PhD is not worth it. But if you're pursuing something you're interested in researching, you're not going to have less job opportunities from having a PhD. You're going to open up new avenues in which you will be an expert in.

That's just my opinion. Feel free to counter with anecdotes/statistics/etc. as it would prove to be an interesting discussion.

Edited January 18, 2013 by SANDIEGO

[fdhkjal]

I don't agree with what's been said about having a harder time finding a job as a "programmer" etc. with a PhD. The only reason that might be the case is they're worried about having to pay you more since you've had more education. Worst case scenario you can either omit your PhD or just say you're willing to get the same pay as someone without it.

IMO a PhD is going to broaden your possibilities in terms of job opportunities, since you've reached a level of expertise that few others have. (academic/industry research, consulting, higher-level engineering positions) Just because you're specialized in, for example, "systems" doesn't disqualify you from jobs.. it just disqualifies you from those jobs that require an overwhelmingly different CS specialty, like "theory". Your overarching degree is still a Computer Science degree.

Regarding your comment on "international students not understanding overqualification", this is because, frankly, for them, it's not overqualification at all. With a PhD from a good institution in the states, they're pretty set when they go back to their home country with a guaranteed job, either in the government, academia, etc. which they might not otherwise have.

I am not saying a PhD is always a good thing. If your objective is to maximize your income, a PhD is not worth it. But if you're pursuing something you're interested in researching, you're not going to have less job opportunities from having a PhD. You're going to open up new avenues in which you will be an expert in.

That's just my opinion. Feel free to counter with anecdotes/statistics/etc. as it would prove to be an interesting discussion.

 

First off, I definitely wasn't clear on the international students.  I meant international students who are wishing to work in the US; I have no knowledge of hiring practices outside of the US, and frankly, from my understanding the things I've said do not hold in other countries.

 

Second, the entire reason a person with a PhD may find it harder to get a position is a mixture of economic and psychological (not because you aren't qualified).  To a employer, your value to them increases the longer you work with them, the first 6 months or so you are essentially worthless to them since you don't know the systems they are using, the code, etc.  Employer's therefore attempt to hire people they believe will work at that position for at least long enough to return their initial investment.  If you are perceived to have a lower chance of staying their long enough to return that investment, then a less qualified candidate may be chosen on that alone.  E.g., a person with a PhD in databases is perceived to love working on databases (I mean, you spent a whole lot of damn time in graduate school working on them, you best love them), so when a company in the video game industry receives this person's resume, they assume they will only work on the position at hand long enough to find another job (in say databases).  This is similar to how police won't hire anyone who has a high iq ( http://yro.slashdot.org/story/11/04/16/2145221/judge-rules-that-police-can-bar-high-iq-scores ). 

 

This problem happens a lot with managers who get laid off.  They have a hard time finding work which they are overqualified for because it's believed they will only be in this position temporarily (even if they want it permanently).

 

Wikipedia even has an sub-article specifically to over qualification of PhDs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overqualification#The_Ph.D. and employer's reservations to hiring them.

 

The last thing I wanted to add, was that employers also like to hire people they want to be around.  A PhD doesn't make you weird, but I can definitely say I see a lot more weird (my term for people with obvious psychological/personality disorders) than there are in undergrad, and hiring managers also make this assumption -- anecdotal evidence from a recent conversation with a hiring manager.  

Edited January 18, 2013 by fdhkjal

[josefchung]

Hey cs85.amar - best of luck in your applications! 

 

In order to get into a top CS program, I think there are several things that you'd have to be worried about, in order of importance.

 

1) Recommendation letters: Recommendation letters are extremely important at high-rank places, and you would need three fantastic letters from preferably renowned faculty to have a good shot. 

 

2) Research potential: Submitted papers really aren't worth that much. However, if you can get a first-author publication at a top-ranked conference that is in a relevant field, this will help immensely at the top schools. In any case, you'd want to present a good research plan, and have an excellent SOP.

 

3) GPA: GPA above 3.8 is very good. Some top schools might prefer GPAs closer to 4.0, but GPAs don't matter nearly as much as the above two.

 

4) GRE: Way further down the list is the GRE. As others have said, the Q score is very important, while the V might not matter at all. 800Q and 400V won't pose much of a problem, while a 600Q and 600V will be an immediate reject. If your Q score is above 750, you should be good, although 780+ (or equivalent) is optimal. 

 

That said, there might be distinct advantages to doing a PhD at your school (rank 40-50). Keep in mind that even at the top programs, the PhD completion rates aren't all that great and many people flunk their prelims despite being geniuses.