Ranking for Theology and Philosophy of Religion

[Greenwood16]

I'm an undergrad student with plans of going to graduate school to eventually get a phd and teach theology or something similar. I am a RELS/Philosophy student. I am interested in ideology not history. I like theology, philosophy of religion, and things of that sort. With that in mind, which schools are considered to be top tier schools in those fields? I have been looking at Duke and Princeton.

Also, I am currently a student at WKU (Western Kentucky) with a Religious Studies and Philosophy double major (although that might change), a fairly high gpa (3.8-3.9), and have yet to take the GRE (only a sophomore). If I were interested in getting into a school like Princeton or Duke for theology, is a masters expected? Is it possible to go straight from undergrad into one of these programs or should I be looking for a masters degree first? I know there are a few different types. Is the MDiv or the MTS a better path to pursue? '

How important is undergraduate school prestige when applying for graduate school? I have been considering transferring to a better undergraduate institution, probably Duke or UNC (have connections to that area).

Also, how important is language in undergraduate education? Ancient languages (greek, hebrew) or modern (german french)? Which is more important? Would picking up a german minor be a significant advantage when applying?

Sorry for all the questions. I am sure I will have more. Thanks in advance!

[Therewillbeluke]

I think we can help you more if we know more specifically about your interests but here goes:

1) Generally you need a M* before you go into a Ph.D progam (M.A. M.T.S. or M.Div). I Duke has masters level programs in religion/theology and Princeton Theogical Seminary (different from Princeton University) offers an M.Div

2) A M.T.S. is a 2 year degree geared toward academia, while a M.Div is a three year degree ideally meant for those pursuing ministry, incorporating academic theology and ministerial training. Many, however, use M.Divs for doctoral preparation.

3) Not sure about school prestige, I'm sure it helps, but I don't know how much.

4) Language is key, any languages you have are going to help you. Which languages depend on what you want to do. Biblical Studies = Greek/Hebrew, Medieval Theology = Latin. GenerallyFrench and/or German is the norm. A German minor would definitely help in my opinon.

[Guest]

You will generally find that even major programs don't necessarily REQUIRE a masters degree for you to apply, though there are many that do. At the same time, the vast majority of applicants will have the more thorough knowledge that comes from studying at the masters level. Besides this an undergraduate will rarely, if ever, give you enough of a background to explore a specific area. It sounds to me that your Religious Studies / Philosophy major will give you a great breadth of what is out there, but a masters program would deepen this significantly and help you identify specific topics you would like to study. You may already have specific topics chosen as of now, but those likely will develop or even change in a masters program.

As for the difference between am MDiv and an MTS, both are great programs and you can use either to prepare for a PhD. I think the three year MDiv gives you more opportunity to explore topics or take many classes focused in one area, but keep in mind the degree has field education (generally two field education placements in the summer) in a church, non-profit organization, or some direct form of ministry. You can often get paid for these field placements, which will offset the tuition costs or help with living expenses.

The MTS, by contrast, is simply an MDiv without the ministry component and a few less core class requirements (i.e. two church history courses instead of three). It is purely academic, and is designed to prepare you for a PhD program. It is a good choice as well. I think it goes by a little quickly, and I am saying this as some one who has already nearly zeroed in on potential PhD focuses in my undergraduate experience. The reason is because, for MDiv programs at places like Duke/Princeton/etc., the third year is essentially a third year of electives, so you can take any course you desire.

Undergraduate prestige is very helpful, but not a game breaker. I personally came from a fairly unknown undergrad and still was accepted into Duke and many other top-quality divinity schools/seminaries for a masters program. I would say the vast majority of accepted applicants came from lesser-known undergraduate programs, actually, including some religion departments that have only two-three faculty members. I think you would get a different experience at Duke/UNC than at WKU, and that may be something you are striving for, but it won't necessarily get you into good graduate programs in itself. It is important to ask yourself if WKU is where you want to be or if you are happy there and benefitting greatly from the program there. It is a question only you can answer for yourself, though!

Languages are unimportant when applying for masters programs, though a plus on your application. This is because you can study Greek/Hebrew in seminary and take modern French/German reading classes as well. The importance of languages will depend on what area you choose to study in for your PhD program. Ethics and theology programs will at least require moderate proficiency in French and German, and biblical studies programs will expect moderate proficiency in Greek and Hebrew AND modern French/German. Some programs may even like you to have Latin down, but that is especially for studies in early Church History or theological studies in early Church Fathers. If I were you, I would do the German minor while you can because it will be more difficult to fit German/French classes in later.

[Lux Lex Pax]

As someone who has gone through this process, let me offer you some advice about applying to Ph.D. programs.

Your undergraduate institution isn't a big deal if you have a master's degree. I graduated from a small, Christian, liberal arts college that few have probably heard of, and I did well during my Ph.D. application season. Obviously, it'll matter more if you apply straight out of undergrad, but, although schools will allow you to apply with a bachelor's degree alone, you probably won't be competitive enough to get admitted. Most competitive schools admit people who already have at least one master's degree and often have more than one; this is true of both Princeton Seminary and Princeton University. So you'll want to get a master's degree.

Like others have said, an M.Div. is primarily for minister and an MTS is more academically oriented. The former is 3 years long, the latter is 2 years. The former is usually general, the latter is usually focused in a specific area. The former usually accepts more people and provide better funding, the latter is usually limited and provides funding only to a few. I took the M.Div. route but many future academics take the MTS (or MAR) route. It's your choice.

The most important thing about applying to Ph.D. programs is "fit." It's a nebulous concept, but it basically means do your interests cohere with the faculty's and can they imagine you getting along with everyone in the department. Look at the school websites, read faculty publications, etc. to get a feel for the intellectual environment of a department or school. Contact current students. Contact faculty members. Ask about course work. Look at previous dissertations. Where are students getting placed (theology or religious studies) after graduation? These are just some of the issues you should be thinking about. Can you imagine yourself fitting in? Ask mentors in theology/religion what they think, take what they say seriously but balance that with other information and think for yourself. Faculty will determine your "fit" with their department based on your statement of purpose and letters of recommendation, so make them good.

Another important element in your application will be letters of recommendation. They need to be excellent. And it usually helps if at least one is from someone they know. That's where getting a master's degree from a well-known and respected school comes in. Be strategic. Want to attend Yale for your Ph.D.? Then work with people during your master's degree program who graduated from Yale or who are friends with people who are currently there and with whom you'd like to work. It's all about connections.

Grades aren't as important as people make them seem. Most faculty members will tell you that if you're a good fit and have excellent letters of recommendation, all you'll need is a 3.7 or above.

The same goes with the GRE. Schools vary more with the GRE; for instance, Duke and Yale use it to weed out applicants, but in general, I'd say something above the 90th percentile in verbal is adequate.

As for which schools are the best in the field, you'll have to determine that for yourself since the weight you attach to each of the criteria is subjective. Care about financial aid? Then Princeton U, Harvard, and Yale are top choices (you'll have to factor in cost of living - places like Emory, Duke, and Notre Dame might top that list). Care about job placement after graduation? Then Duke, UVa, Yale, and Princeton U. What kind of formation do you want? Duke, U Chicago, Union NYC, and Notre Dame will all be very different from each other. So you have to ask yourself what you care about most. What are your theological/religious commitments? Roman Catholic? Reformed? Methodist? Barthian? Calvinist? Pragmatist? Augustinian? Thomist? Radical Orthodoxy? Postliberal? Where you stand on those issues will help determine the best schools for you, and these considerations barely scratch the surface. For example, you might have well-known scholars at a school who don't get along, making it impossible to have both of them on our committee. Are there factions? Is someone hard to work with? Is there someone who's a great mentor? Who'll support you most, academically and personally?

I chose based on financial aid, job placement after graduation, mentorship and support, friendliness of the department, and intellectual vitality. Things like theological orthodoxy or small size or the lack of someone who does "systematic" theology weren't determinative for me, but I'm in a religious studies program, not a theology program, even though I have theological interests.

These are just a few of the issues you should be considering.

[Clare]

I would affirm what those above have said about letters of recommendation.  Obviously all the parts of the application are important, but really strong letters from really pertinent people says a lot.

 

I do think you should put a lot of thought into what sort of a methodology you want to pursue. This doesn't necessarily mean you've got to choose one over the other. For example, my undergrad was a Religious Studies degree, then went to Yale Div School for a Masters of Divinity which was explicitly theological, and next year I am going to Georgetown's PhD in Theological and Religious studies, where they seek to equip students with a solid grounding in both.  But before you apply to schools, you should be clear about what kind of research you're hoping to learn and to do, and what sort of scholar you want to be.  For example, if you're aim is to be a straight up systematic theologian in the western theological tradition, then you need to go to a school that does that, like Notre Dame.  If you're wanting to do religious studies and comparative philosophy (you said these were your undergrad majors) then a religious studies program like Yale's doctorate downtown would make more sense.  If you're hoping to chart something in between - for example, you want to be a theologian but want to do East Asian theology, and need to engage on a deep level with East Asian religions thought in order to do it authentically - then you want to go to a theology program, but with faculty who are grounded in the philosophical and comparative studies that you need (for example, Georgetown, or maybe Boston University, etc)

[Greenwood16]

For those that are interested, I choose to stay at WKU. I appreciate all the responses. They were helpful. 

 

Now I'm in the process of working down my list of interests piece by piece. Anyone else have the problem with being interested in everything... I guess it's not a terrible problem to have though. 

 

Again, thanks for the insights! I'm sure I'll have more questions some time soon.

[Body Politics]

In my experience, I found that my interests narrowed the further along the path I went. I wouldn't worry about it. You will cultivate your passions naturally.