Top Schools for Hebrew Bible?

[search the scriptures]

From looking at the department list for graduate courses, the department is very much dedicated to focusing on Christianity. This is certainly understandable given that it's a small Catholic school.

 

Also, if you're wanting to go into HB, you're going to need more than an intermediate Hebrew. So, I imagine you'll be doing an additional M* once you finish with Providence if you're looking for some of the more well established PhD programs.

 

xypathos, thanks for your reply.

 

How much Hebrew is usually necessary to get into a good HB Ph.D. program?  Yale says 2 years (on top of other languages), which is a full year more than what I would be getting.  Granted, they are the best HB program in the world and the most competitive to get into, but I am hoping to go there if I can.    

 

I'm wondering then if I could just take a couple advanced Hebrew courses after I graduate PC rather than getting a completely new M.A. all over again.  Or, I'm wondering if I should jump ship now and go get an MAOT at a school like Gordon-Conwell which is much more focused on what I need.  The problem is that Gordon-Conwell is a lot more expensive, out-of-state, and in my opinion has less name recognition at top graduate programs than PC does, even though the education would prepare me better.

 

I don't want to make the mistake of spending 2 years getting an M.A. in Biblical Studies at PC if it's not going to prepare me for an HB Ph.D. program.  It seems like a good fit for now but I've really talked to anyone who knows about it before, which explains the reason I came to this forum to ask for advice

 

What path did most of you take to get into HB Ph.D. programs?  And do you feel it prepared you well?

[sacklunch]

Pathos is simply stating what most of us had to do, namely, get two M* degrees. While Yale says it 'requires' two years of classical Hebrew I wonder if they in fact only take students with at least 3-4 years? It's also important to know (and you may already have heard) that Yale's NELC program is having problems, so I imagine you would want to apply to the RS Department (as far as I know NELC isn't even taking HB students right now). If you can do two years of biblical Hebrew at PC, among other language work, there is no reason to leave, especially if the tuition is cheap. I should also mention, and this is personal bias, that many of the Protestant seminaries/divinity schools teach classical languages differently than many of their Catholic counterparts. The latter, in part (I think) because most students simply have no interest in biblical studies, oftentimes seem to focus more on philology (such as a classics dept.). I have heard disheartening reports from many friends that studied at the big name Prot. schools who have criticized their language courses as 'too pastoral' and so on. When you have hundreds of students interested in learning 'a bit' of Koine or biblical Hebrew for their (eventual) roles as clergy the language courses are going to be structured accordingly.

[AbrasaxEos]

The language thing isn't so much a question of meeting a certain requirement for admission as much as it is going to be the competition that you have from other applicants to the kind of programs you are looking at.  Whereas Yale might say that 2 years of Hebrew is a minimum requirement, there will be a lot of folks applying who have more like 3-4,  who will also have some ability with other Semitic or cognate languages, many of whom are coming from the big divinity schools like YDS, HDS, U of C, Duke, etc. If you have not yet started Hebrew, you may well require a second M* degree to be a competitive applicant to the top schools because of the time it will take to get to a competitive level.  I cannot say this with certainty, but I would guess that you would be expected to be able to very rapidly read pointed Hebrew texts, and have some ability, if slower, with unpointed ones for the best PhD programs.  This was the preparation that I recieved at YDS, even though I ended up going about 1000 years later for my PhD program.  There are a number of folks here who have gotten into excellent HB PhD programs that should be able to give you more detailed info on this as well.

[search the scriptures]

sacklunch and AbrasaxEos, thanks for your answers.

 

I'm a little shocked about the requirements for a HB Ph.D. at a school like Yale to be honest though.  The more I look into it, the more lengthy and over-the-top the requirements seem.  Yale's program website says, "students normally begin writing their dissertation in the fourth year and normally will have finished by the end of the sixth."  How is it fair to be in school that long?  If I do 2 years for an MA and then 2 years for another MA and then 6 years for a Ph.D, that 10 YEARS of graduate school to get a doctorate.  

 

Am I missing something here or is this reality?  A friend of mine just got his Ph.D. in Aerospace Engineering from one of the top schools in the world and it only took him 3 years after getting his bachelors degree to do it.  How can it only take 3 years for a math / science Ph.D. and 10 years for a religious studies Ph.D?  

[marXian]

sacklunch and AbrasaxEos, thanks for your answers.

 

I'm a little shocked about the requirements for a HB Ph.D. at a school like Yale to be honest though.  The more I look into it, the more lengthy and over-the-top the requirements seem.  Yale's program website says, "students normally begin writing their dissertation in the fourth year and normally will have finished by the end of the sixth."  How is it fair to be in school that long?  If I do 2 years for an MA and then 2 years for another MA and then 6 years for a Ph.D, that 10 YEARS of graduate school to get a doctorate.  

 

Am I missing something here or is this reality?  A friend of mine just got his Ph.D. in Aerospace Engineering from one of the top schools in the world and it only took him 3 years after getting his bachelors degree to do it.  How can it only take 3 years for a math / science Ph.D. and 10 years for a religious studies Ph.D?  

 

This is the reality for many of us. I'm not in an ancient language-base field, but I also have two master's degrees, one from a standard state school program in English, and the other in theology from a seminary. That latter took three years to finish. My PhD will probably take 5-7 years, making for 10-12 years total of grad school.

 

The important thing to remember is that after the second year of you PhD (usually), school isn't at all like it was during your master's programs and first years of the PhD because you're probably not going to be taking courses. After your exam year, there's all sorts of grants to apply for to go study places and work on your dissertation. Following that year, you're basically really starting to enter into the realm of professional academia. So I wouldn't really think of it as 10 years of the same kind of graduate work.

 

Did your friend go to a university outside of the US? You can go do a research degree at a UK university (following an MA for our field usually) and all you'll have to do is write your dissertation since that's how the programs there work. But there are lots of reasons why that can make it more difficult to find a job (e.g. those programs are easier to get into because US students pay a lot of money for them, there's no exams to demonstrate competencies in your field, etc.)

[sacklunch]

sacklunch and AbrasaxEos, thanks for your answers.

 

I'm a little shocked about the requirements for a HB Ph.D. at a school like Yale to be honest though.  The more I look into it, the more lengthy and over-the-top the requirements seem.  Yale's program website says, "students normally begin writing their dissertation in the fourth year and normally will have finished by the end of the sixth."  How is it fair to be in school that long?  If I do 2 years for an MA and then 2 years for another MA and then 6 years for a Ph.D, that 10 YEARS of graduate school to get a doctorate.  

 

Am I missing something here or is this reality?  A friend of mine just got his Ph.D. in Aerospace Engineering from one of the top schools in the world and it only took him 3 years after getting his bachelors degree to do it.  How can it only take 3 years for a math / science Ph.D. and 10 years for a religious studies Ph.D?  

 

Welcome to the field! . But, really, this is the reality. When and if you apply to Yale you will be applying against students who have 3-4 yrs of Hebrew (some with modern), Greek, Aramaic/Syriac, French, German, and so on and so on. FWIW I applied to Yale (PhD, RS) with I think a lot more language prep than 'required' or 'average' (when I applied I had 3-4 yrs of Hebrew, 5-6 Greek, 2 German, 2 Latin, 2 Aramaic/Syriac) and I didn't get so much as an email, except of course the rejection! BUT I do know someone in Yale's NELC who 'only' had two years of biblical Hebrew before beginning his PhD (though said person had German, French, Greek, and I think some Latin?). It's certainly possible to get in with the 'required' amount, but you should know what sort of competition you will face. In the end I ended up a top program, so it all worked out. Though if I had not focused so heavily on the language aspect of my application I truly don't think I would have had multiple offers. 

 

Should this all cause you to rethink your proposed plans? Maybe. It worked out for many of us, but the majority, statistically, do not 'make it.' However, the fact that you are here asking these sorts of questions means you are likely a more competitive applicant. As one of the above posters said, a great number of the applicants applying may not even stand a chance. There will be plenty who apply without the 'required' two years of Hebrew, many who have the two years, and perhaps 20% (this is a total guess...anyone?) who have the 3-4+. It's that top 20% you will have to contend with to make the cut and, as it was also mentioned above, those applicants often come from the big name programs (i.e. Yale, Harvard, Duke, Chicago, Emory, Vandy, PTS, and so on).

Edited July 24, 2014 by sacklunch

[search the scriptures]

Nope it was here in the U.S.  I wouldn't want to study outside the U.S. if Hebrew Bible degrees from places like the UK (i.e. Cambridge, Oxford, Gloucestershire, Sheffield) are viewed less prestigiously here.  

 

Guess I'll have to do more than the M.A. in Biblical Studies if I want to get into a good Hebrew Bible Ph.D. program.  From some HB faculty bios I've looked at, it seems that a lot of them did their the second M.A. at the same school that they got their Ph.D from.  Maybe this would cut the time to get the Ph.D. at least slightly?  

[search the scriptures]

Welcome to the field! . But, really, this is the reality. When and if you apply to Yale you will be applying against students who have 3-4 yrs of Hebrew (some with modern), Greek, Aramaic/Syriac, French, German, and so on and so on. FWIW I applied to Yale (PhD, RS) with I think a lot more language prep than 'required' or 'average' (when I applied I had 3-4 yrs of Hebrew, 5-6 Greek, 2 German, 2 Latin, 2 Aramaic/Syriac) and I didn't get so much as an email, except of course the rejection! BUT I do know someone in Yale's NELC who 'only' had two years of biblical Hebrew before beginning his PhD (though said person had German, French, Greek, and I think some Latin?). It's certainly possible to get in with the 'required' amount, but you should know what sort of competition you will face. In the end I ended up a top program, so it all worked out. Though if I had not focused so heavily on the language aspect of my application I truly don't think I would have had multiple offers. 

 

Should this all cause you to rethink your proposed plans? Maybe. It worked out for many of us, but the majority, statistically, do not 'make it.' However, the fact that you are here asking these sorts of questions means you are likely a more competitive applicant. As one of the above posters said, a great number of the applicants applying may not even stand a chance. There will be plenty who apply without the 'required' two years of Hebrew, many who have the two years, and perhaps 20% (this is a total guess...anyone?) who have the 3-4+. It's that top 20% you will have to contend with to make the cut and, as it was also mentioned above, those applicants often come from the big name programs (i.e. Yale, Harvard, Duke, Chicago, Emory, Vandy, PTS, and so on).

 

Sacklunch, Thanks for the insight.

 

From a statistics page I saw on Yale's website, 211 students applied for Religious Studies Ph.Ds last fall and only 9 of them ended up being enrolled.  That's extremely competitive to say the least.  

[sacklunch]

That puts them at 4%, which sounds about right for the big names listed above. 

 

I see the possible confusion about the second M*. Some programs, while enrolled as a PhD student, award their students an M* after two or so years. Some even give their students two M* on their way (I think Yale used to do this or still does with the MA+MPhil...anyone?). Others only award the PhD while still requiring coursework (this seems to be more commonplace in other branches of the humanities and almost all science PhD's as far as I know do not receive an M* en route). What we are discussing here is two M* before being admitted into a PhD program. So in some programs you then would eventually have 3 or even 4 M* before you actually get your PhD. Mind you none of these M* really matter once you are in/out of the PhD program (or so I'm told once you are done). This is why the field is so risky, emotionally/psychologically and fiscally. While I do know a couple students who have 2 M* without any debt, most of us have our fair share (some far too much...*tear*).  

[search the scriptures]

That puts them at 4%, which sounds about right for the big names listed above. 

 

I see the possible confusion about the second M*. Some programs, while enrolled as a PhD student, award their students an M* after two or so years. Some even give their students two M* on their way (I think Yale used to do this or still does with the MA+MPhil...anyone?). Others only award the PhD while still requiring coursework (this seems to be more commonplace in other branches of the humanities and almost all science PhD's as far as I know do not receive an M* en route). What we are discussing here is two M* before being admitted into a PhD program. So in some programs you then would eventually have 3 or even 4 M* before you actually get your PhD. Mind you none of these M* really matter once you are in/out of the PhD program (or so I'm told once you are done). This is why the field is so risky, emotionally/psychologically and fiscally. While I do know a couple students who have 2 M* without any debt, most of us have our fair share (some far too much...*tear*).  

Wow.  That is a lot of Masters degrees.  My original conception was that it would be a straight shot to a doctorate like the sciences are.  Guess that won't be the case at all.   

[dr. t]

I am a PhD student in the Biblical field. I know first-hand (trying not to gossip here) that this professor has lots of problems with his graduate students. Kind of an abusive relationship. It happens that there are certain professors extremely problematic, everybody knows about it and nobody addresses the issue. Unless you do your research properly and thoroughly you might end up experiencing a nightmare and, in the end, quitting the program. I have also hear that that's the case at Vanderbilt with a New Testament professor. I always  encourage students to report these issues so the word gets out and people are informed.

 

Levenson? Really? I've not encountered anyone, including PhD students, who have expressed anything negative about him, and I have a fairly favorable impression of him myself. I think you should explain at least a little bit more.

Edited July 24, 2014 by telkanuru

[newenglandshawn]

Levenson? Really? I've not encountered anyone, including PhD students, who have expressed anything negative about him, and I have a fairly favorable impression of him myself. I think you should explain at least a little bit more.

 

Yeah, I think the anonymous poster - who wouldn't explain anything further in a private message - just had an ax to grind. I am hardly qualified to speak about Professor Levenson's character since I'm not at HDS and have never met him in person, but in the 3-4 e-mails we have exchanged, he has been not only pleasant, but extremely prompt in his responses. So it's too bad that someone can throw out this claim while refusing to substantiate it.

[RedDoor]

I can also vouch for Levenson's amiability. It is a shame about the Vandy professors, however. I was very interested in the Theology & Practice program, but if the NT department is a nightmare, I'd rather not spend 6-8 years of my life in misery. 

[sacklunch]

I too have heard good things regarding Levenson from a current doctoral student. I've heard he's really funny, too.

[dr. t]

Yeah, I think the anonymous poster - who wouldn't explain anything further in a private message - just had an ax to grind. I am hardly qualified to speak about Professor Levenson's character since I'm not at HDS and have never met him in person, but in the 3-4 e-mails we have exchanged, he has been not only pleasant, but extremely prompt in his responses. So it's too bad that someone can throw out this claim while refusing to substantiate it.

 

Yeah I realized after I posted that the OP was 6 months old and nothing would come of it.

 

FWIW, he won me over by calling Foucault nasty names.

[LotzaCoffee]

sacklunch and AbrasaxEos, thanks for your answers.

 

I'm a little shocked about the requirements for a HB Ph.D. at a school like Yale to be honest though.  The more I look into it, the more lengthy and over-the-top the requirements seem.  Yale's program website says, "students normally begin writing their dissertation in the fourth year and normally will have finished by the end of the sixth."  How is it fair to be in school that long?  If I do 2 years for an MA and then 2 years for another MA and then 6 years for a Ph.D, that 10 YEARS of graduate school to get a doctorate.  

 

Am I missing something here or is this reality?  A friend of mine just got his Ph.D. in Aerospace Engineering from one of the top schools in the world and it only took him 3 years after getting his bachelors degree to do it.  How can it only take 3 years for a math / science Ph.D. and 10 years for a religious studies Ph.D?  

 

You've identified a foundational "truth" about the length of time required for advanced studies.  I did my MS in Civil Engineering a few years back, and my colleagues that went on for PhD work in Civil Engineering took an average of 3 years, I'd estimate, start to finish, including course work and dissertation. 

 

I'm now finishing up my MA in Hebrew Bible/OT, and I can vouch for the difference in research methodologies and background knowledge required to complete a successful thesis or dissertation in the sciences/engineering vs. HB.  It's not that one field is "harder" than the other; it's primarily a dramatic difference in research methodologies and the large amount of background knowledge required (i.e. ancient and modern languages) for HB that simply isn't a requirement in science or engineering.

Edited July 30, 2014 by LotzaCoffee

[sacklunch]

Good points ^. Times have changed. Perhaps if we were still learning Greek, Latin, German, and so on in grade school onward we would be on a similar schedule. Further, the growth of graduate divinity schools ballooned (and is still, perhaps) in the mid-late 20th century, making M* degrees the norm before moving on to a PhD. Occasionally you might see a remnant of these times in an old timer's CV, listed as 'BD' (Bachelor of Divinity), without the fluff of multiple M*. The shitty part about all of these M* programs is many of their students have no formal background, thus forcing the departments to lower the incoming requirements of 'graduate' coursework, making them basically undergraduate courses. So, if you are coming into an M* with a strong foundation in religion/theology/whatever, you will very likely be discouraged by all of the 'intro X' required classes (thankfully there are ways to opt out of these courses in some programs!).