How competitive am I for Chemistry Grad School?

[nipwe]

Hi All,

 

I am an international student, planning to apply for PhD program in Chemistry

 

GRE (Q 161/V 159/ 3.0) taken on 12/2012

TOEFL iBT 104(30/30/23/21) taken on 12/2012

I am planning to take both these tests again as my scores are not good enough. also planning for GRE subject 

 

GPA~3.2 but final year this is ~2 as I zeroed most of my exam papers sake of finishing my degree.

 

I do have an 1 year of research experience, 1 seminar presentation

 

I also have lots of volunteering , extracurricular experience   

 

My main research interests are in field of bioanalytical chemistry (bio mimetic senser development/molecular self-assemblies/supra-molecular  ) 

I am planing to apply following uni's 

 

University of Arizona, University of California- Berkeley ,Stanford ,University of California- Davis ,University of California- Irvine 

I know all these are top rank ones for Analytical chemistry  but I don't want to go to a medicore one.

 

I did poorly in my undergrad (specially in last few semester) as I was out of my studies for 2 year and then returned for my studies while working as a clinical research coordinator for four clinical studies and also as a chemistry tutor. All these due to fact that I am from a poor family in a rather under developed country, I  received government scholarship to study but  that was not enough.

 

At the moment I am in US with my wife who is a PhD student . I have very limited amount of money to spend on applications or any examinations as I am not allowed to work in US(F2 dependant). So I won't able to apply several time or lots of universities . I am  really grateful if you can give me any suggestions to improve my chance of acceptance and whether universities i am planning apply are too high to reach(Dream and reality ).

 

Thank you very much for your help in advanced 

Edited January 27, 2013 by nipwe

[Quantum Buckyball]

1. Have you checked the deadlines for those schools?

2. A downward trend for your GPA is not good at all..

3. do you have any publications? or the professor you worked with has connections?

4. why don't you want to go to a mediocre PhD program? Are you willing to apply for MS programs?

[aberrant]

This is my perspective (as an former international applicant, who was out of school for 2 years and research and etc.) assuming you have strong SOP/PS and LOR, just like everybody else.

 

1. GRE AW score doesn't mean much, but it can be detrimental to your application if you have a low score. Therefore you should retake it and get at least a 3.5 (ps. it's less about english grammar but more about critical thinking and reasoning).

2. I would say you need at least a 105 in IBT in order to be considered by Cal and Stanford

3. 1 year research experience is minimal if it was a full-time research. You should consider working in a lab now and accumulate more (hopepfully independent) research experience. What kind of seminar presentation? Who are the audience? The department from your school? A regional meeting? Doesn't mean much unless you can put it in your CV and consider it as a professional activity.

4. If your "volunteering , extracurricular experience" are not related to chemistry, they may not be helpful.

5. While I sympathize your situation, I don't think it's a legit justification for having a downward trend of your GPA (as Quantum Buckyball mentioned.) You might have hope to get into any school by compensating with a almost-perfect GRE subject score; or else, I won't be optimistic about your chance to get into top-tier schools with your stats -- being an international applicant.

6. You may have a better shot for these schools if they offer a MS program and if you go to their MS program first. What you should also realize is that who you will work with means more than where do you go to school. Therefore, you should consider schools that are not "top-tier" (labeled by some subjective rankings) that do good research with good/great researchers.

And that's just my 2 cents.

[nipwe]

 Hi Quantum Buckyball and aberrant

Thank you very much for the reply 

I have already applied to University of Arizona and California-Davis. Without a good Chemistry subject test score, others are beyond my reach (even these two are). So I am planning to apply for others in spring after taking Chem GRE and after saving some money. I am sure I can get more than 85% but hoping to go beyond 95% in this test. I think this is very much possible. Most of my friends were able to score above 90%, and most of the questions on GRE subject test is from GCE A/L level, not even undergraduate level in my county).

I don't like to go in to so called medicore ones (I am sure some of these have really good chemistry graduate programs) becoz I won't be able to find a good academic or research position in my home country without my degree from a well reputed university (otherwise I will need some political connection). So I concentrated on unis which are not only good in their chemistry program but also listed in top 100 in most of the world ranking sites (not US ranking). I know that good mentoring and research experience worth more, but it value very little to people in my home country. they rather show off with their Harvard or Cambridge degrees  

I am willing to apply for Ms program and then peruse a PhD, but most of the MS program are not well funded as PhD,or I won't be able to secure a TA or RA position. Our only income is from my wife's TA salary, and I don't have money to fund my education.with My current F-2 visa, I am not allowed to work.

I personalty talked to a professor at University Arizona and explained my situation, my GRE and TOEFL scores are ok for them but ???

Edited January 28, 2013 by nipwe

[aberrant]

I personalty talked to a professor at University Arizona and explained my situation, my GRE and TOEFL scores are ok for them but ???

 

You may want to talk to the admission office / graduate admission / whoever has the knowledge of the historical statistics in this regard.

 

My former PI would tell me the same thing, but the truth is even though this PI was (and still is) on the admission committee, this PI may / may not know the competitiveness for the application pool (international students in particular).

 

I agreed that your scores are good, yet I think it can be great if you can boost your GRE AW score and TOEFL iBT (your GRE verbal is excellent, and your GRE quant is fine.) If money is an issue for you, then perhaps you don't want to waste your money just to boost your scores a little bit. You do need to find a way to do more research while you're waiting for grad school application though.... 

[Faraday]

I don't like to go in to so called medicore ones (I am sure some of these have really good chemistry graduate programs) becoz I won't be able to find a good academic or research position in my home country without my degree from a well reputed university (otherwise I will need some political connection). So I concentrated on unis which are not only good in their chemistry program but also listed in top 100 in most of the world ranking sites (not US ranking). I know that good mentoring and research experience worth more, but it value very little to people in my home country. they rather show off with their Harvard or Cambridge degrees  

 

To me, herein lies your problem. You want to go to a "prestigious school" for the sake of it being prestigious, but the real reason someone goes to a prestigious school is to have a good mentoring and research experience (you want your PI to shape you into a brilliant scientist). A "prestigious" institution has that reputation because more often than not the people working there are pretty good at doing just that (the best professors in the world like to hire the best fellow faculty members...). Furthermore, a university ranked "Top 100" in the world isn't necessarily going to have a great chemistry program. For example, Duke, Brown, and NYU are hardly known for their chemistry prowess... I find it hard to believe people are this narrow-minded. The point is that a "lesser ranked" university with a PI who you can connect with, have strong mutual research interests, and someone with a strong track record for bringing up good students (see the alumni page) in the way of research technique, publishing ability, grant writing, etc. should surely give more value to your graduate studies than a PI at a more "prestigious university" who really doesn't care much about your scientific development. The kicker is that as a lesser ranked school you could have a better shot of getting in there as well...

Edited January 28, 2013 by Faraday

[nipwe]

Thanks Faraday and Aberrant,
 
I got a good idea of what I need to do from your posts,

 

 

 

 Furthermore, a university ranked "Top 100" in the world isn't necessarily going to have a great chemistry program. For example, Duke, Brown, and NYU are hardly known for their chemistry prowess... I find it hard to believe people are this narrow-minded.

I agree with you Faraday,

[St Andrews Lynx]

To me, herein lies your problem. You want to go to a "prestigious school" for the sake of it being prestigious, but the real reason someone goes to a prestigious school is to have a good mentoring and research experience (you want your PI to shape you into a brilliant scientist). 

 

nipwe, If your only motivation for going to a school is its "prestige" then I think you'll have a hard time getting in to these places. You can't flatter your way onto a PhD program. The Admissions Committee KNOW their university is in the World Top 100 Rankings, they KNOW that people want to get onto their programs just because of that fact. Admissions Committees are looking for hard-working scholars who will make significant contributions to the school's research program/Department & research group life, who will go on to do Great Things and generally prove to be a good investment. They almost certainly AREN'T looking for somebody hitching a free ride and intending to coast through their PhD for the sake of "prestige" just to go back to their home country to better land themselves a job. 

Be very careful about reputation snobbery.

[frankstoneline]

Have you heard from Univ of Arizona yet?

I was accepted there with a 3.35 GPA from a small state school, however I had at least 2 excellent letters of recommendation, close to 4 years research experience (about equally split between academic lab and industry setting) and what I assume was a decent SOP.

Additionally, my GPA was uptrending in my final years taking near overload scheduling w/ P Chem, upper div. math courses and 400/500 level chem courses.

 

I suppose my point is that GPA doesnt seem to be an issue as long as you have a pretty compelling background that suggests you will be a good researcher. That said, some folks have mentioned the prestige issue above, and it is a valid observation. If you can't discuss your goals/ideas as a researcher well in your SOP, mention some professors whose work you feel you would allign with and make a clear, honest and unique case as to why you should be researching at their university your application is likely to fade into the noise. Simply saying you want a better job or feeding an adcom lines about bettering humankind makes no case for admission, you need to make a solid case for your admission.

 

Another topic in regards to the prestige issue: your advisor is paramount. There are bad advisors at prestigious schools, and their are excellent advisors at unknown schools. I had the pleasure of working with some excellent chemists in my undergrad who were employed at a small state university with no reputation for chemistry.

[tangentc]

To me, herein lies your problem. You want to go to a "prestigious school" for the sake of it being prestigious, but the real reason someone goes to a prestigious school is to have a good mentoring and research experience (you want your PI to shape you into a brilliant scientist). A "prestigious" institution has that reputation because more often than not the people working there are pretty good at doing just that (the best professors in the world like to hire the best fellow faculty members...). Furthermore, a university ranked "Top 100" in the world isn't necessarily going to have a great chemistry program. For example, Duke, Brown, and NYU are hardly known for their chemistry prowess... I find it hard to believe people are this narrow-minded. The point is that a "lesser ranked" university with a PI who you can connect with, have strong mutual research interests, and someone with a strong track record for bringing up good students (see the alumni page) in the way of research technique, publishing ability, grant writing, etc. should surely give more value to your graduate studies than a PI at a more "prestigious university" who really doesn't care much about your scientific development. The kicker is that as a lesser ranked school you could have a better shot of getting in there as well...

 

Well, I partially agree with this. Certainly prestige should not be your only consideration in choosing a school for the reasons stated. Faraday is also right on the money about a school's overall ranking being very different from their chemistry ranking. For what rankings are worth, anyway. That said, any mentor worth their salt will acknowledge that there is value in doing a PhD at a more prestigious institution (especially if you want to work in academia). Sad to say, but even if you have a great mentor and do a lot of great work, you'll have a harder time of it than a mediocre student from a top school who worked for a famous PI, even if they're a terrible mentor (and fame should not be taken as an indicator of quality as a mentor). While the faculty who ultimately do the hiring will know the difference, random non-technical bureaucrat  #301245 who is screening applications doesn't know the difference between good science and crap science, but they do recognize a big name school on a resume.

 

Overall, neither the crap student from the good school nor the good student from the crap school will be very likely to be getting the job. I don't mean to be an asshole about this, but this is what all the professors I've worked for have told me when I expressed interest in being a PI. The calculus is a bit different if you want a job in industry, but if anything it favors the graduates of prestigious schools more (there are just more jobs to go around in industry). The prestige value of the school shouldn't be the ONLY factor you look at, as if you go to a school where you're a terrible fit you're wasting a slot someone else could have taken and you're likely to be mediocre (or even drop out) because you just don't care about the research and don't like your boss. Still, if you want to be competitive in the job market, prestige should be considered when looking at schools. It's all well and good to console ourselves because we didn't get into Caltech or Berkeley, but the fact is that the people who did are at a competitive advantage in both academia and industry and denying it does no one any good.

 

I don't mean to be all doom and gloom here. The best students from smaller schools tend to get good postdoc positions, which can go a long way to closing the competitive gap. Since you apply directly to PI's for those positions, the name on your degree isn't such a big deal. It probably won't fix all your problems, but you can occasionally see profs at R1 schools who got their PhD's from lower-ranked schools who postdoc'd with famous people. It's a harder path to walk, though.

[nipwe]

Thanks for all the responses,

 

Actually I got a positive reply from Arizona, they are like to give a position based on my GRE subject score. so  I have to wait till May(have to take April one).I think this is the best way forward to me 

[frankstoneline]

Thanks for all the responses,

 

Actually I got a positive reply from Arizona, they are like to give a position based on my GRE subject score. so  I have to wait till May(have to take April one).I think this is the best way forward to me 

 

U of A requested you take the GRE subject before they will offer admission? Best of luck!

[nipwe]

Actually not U of A, but prof I contacted 

[nipwe]

Hi all,

 

Again I need little advice. I got my GRE subject test result last Sunday (880/93%). This is bit lower than I expected. Anyway now I have to face a new dilemma. As most of u suggested, I tried to accumulate more research experience lately. So I talked to a professor from the university in which my wife is studying and able to obtained a volunteer research position.  Professor also want me to have university ID, lab keys and safety training before starting the volunteering, but university denied my request to an ID  stating that lab work cannot be consider as volunteering(I m a F-2). I even presented an e-mail I received from the state department stating that any lab works without payment is fine. But university won’t give me a chance. So I ended up having only exam results to make my application competitive. So can you guys give me any suggestions to improve my chances at universities mentioned in my first post? (UGPA 3.2, TOEFL 104, GRE subject 880/93%, GRE general Q161/ V157).taking any of the exam may be???

[aberrant]

You GRE subject score is excellent, but I would still worry that you have less research experience than most of the other applicants. You should have look up the regulations regarding F-2 visa, that "an F2 visa holder may not accept employment. He or she must obtain a work visa." Without spending any money to enroll in Arizona / its extension, your status (and VISA) would still be F-2 and you are not allow to work. This page (http://forums.immigration.com/entry.php?77-Can-H-4-F-2-holders-perform-volunteer-work) explains the definition of "employment". There isn't much to say given that your numbers will not improve based on your financial situation (other than the fact that you are not doing any research.) If I were you, I would start crafting my SOP / PS, looking for LORs, tailoring my CV/resume, and go back to my home country and started volunteering in a lab. (Which I did when I was an "exchange student" in Hong Kong.)

[nipwe]

Thanks aberrant for your answer, but I also finally got a good news. Most probably I will be able to go to a school I applied this semester. I think going back to my home country won't help me that much (there arte almost no research options available). Anyway thank you all for the advice.

Edited May 23, 2013 by nipwe

[nipwe]

Thanks for all the replies. I finaly accpeted the offer from Arizona.