Offer holders, how do you make your final decision?

[getitlow]

So this is a major trade off and really it hits on the job market.  Remember that hiring is not done by people in your subfield, it's done by entire departments.  This is a dirty ugly aspect that I hate, but if you are dealing with an interview committee full of Asianists they will know that UCSC is a good place to have come with that degree.  But very few places actually have enough asianists to make up an entire hiring committee.

 

There are a lot of people around who will tell you the prestige of the general department isn't as important as the PoI.  I'm not going to say they're wrong... but theyr'e not right either.  I have a masters from a ... shall we say... not disreputable place.  But not somewhere you think "world class scholars".  It was filled with very good scholars.  Some of them were tops in their fields, but I can tell you when I went to conferences I could feel the brush offs I got.  It only diminished a little when I could say "I'm so and so's student". 

 

The professors at lesser ranked programs will tell you it doesn't matter so much, and they aren't lying, but you should remember that if you are teaching at an R2 or non-flag ship state university you really have to tell yourself that.

 

Thank you. This is really helpful for me. My problem now is that I know that the department I got admitted to is pretty good but it bothers me every time I think how it's going to look on the job market. Your thoughts will give me ideas to ponder on. 

 

By R2 universities, what range of university ranking are you talking about? Like top 200 or 300 ?

[New England Nat]

Wikipedia explains it all.  Sort of.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_research_universities_in_the_United_States

 

The R1/R2 reference.

[Katzenmusik]

Haven't visited all my options in person yet, but it's looking like the decision will come down to this:

 

1. Awesome History Department with super-star advisor, lots of historians working in my area of interest, and tons of resources for research

 

vs.

 

2. Exciting Interdisciplinary Program with more openness to publicly-engaged scholarship and unconventional approaches, but not as much support for my field of study

 

I feel like I need to figure out what kind of historian I want to be over the next couple of weeks.  This is hard.

Edited March 1, 2013 by Katzenmusik

[lafayette]

Haven't visited all my options in person yet, but it's looking like the decision will come down to this:

 

1. Awesome History Department with super-star advisor, lots of historians working in my area of interest, and tons of resources for research

 

vs.

 

2. Exciting Interdisciplinary Program with more openness to publicly-engaged scholarship and unconventional approaches, but not as much support for my field of study

 

I feel like I need to figure out what kind of historian I want to be over the next couple of weeks.  This is hard.

I like safe bets, so I'm going to throw my vote towards the first. I did an exciting interdisciplinary program for undergrad and I loved it, but I think likely how I needed to do a MA first to be seriously considered for a top ranked history program, it might be similar when you are on the job market. You can always explore unconventional approaches when you are in a PhD program or even better, secure in a tenure track position. I hope to do just that myself. At the very least, ask about job prospects from the second choice -- there are a few very highly regarded interdisciplinary departments where this might not be as big of an issue (Yale American Studies or something like that).

[czesc]

I agree with the above. It would probably help to engage in interdisciplinary work to some degree to seem exciting on the job market, but coming from a whole program known for being geared toward that might be too much, especially if it also involved "publicly-oriented scholarship" and other "unconventional approaches". A lot of jobs will also (or exclusively) be looking for a more traditional background. Especially given the second choice doesn't support your chosen fields as much, the choice seems clear.

[Katzenmusik]

I like safe bets, so I'm going to throw my vote towards the first. I did an exciting interdisciplinary program for undergrad and I loved it, but I think likely how I needed to do a MA first to be seriously considered for a top ranked history program, it might be similar when you are on the job market. You can always explore unconventional approaches when you are in a PhD program or even better, secure in a tenure track position. I hope to do just that myself. At the very least, ask about job prospects from the second choice -- there are a few very highly regarded interdisciplinary departments where this might not be as big of an issue (Yale American Studies or something like that).

 

I had thought the same -- but when I mentioned the job market rationale to a couple different professors, they said history departments might look completely different in 10 years, and I shouldn't assume that the traditional academic path would be more advantageous.  Their advice amounted to: "Make sure past placement has been reasonable, then go with your gut."

 

I agree with the above. It would probably help to engage in interdisciplinary work to some degree to seem exciting on the job market, but coming from a whole program known for being geared toward that might be too much, especially if it also involved "publicly-oriented scholarship" and other "unconventional approaches". A lot of jobs will also (or exclusively) be looking for a more traditional background. Especially given the second choice doesn't support your chosen fields as much, the choice seems clear.

 

Yeah.  I am a bit nervous about leaving the safe confines of History and giving up the chance to work with the scholars in that department.  But the interdisciplinary place may be more accepting of my brand of weirdness overall.  Certain interests that raised eyebrows at the History Department have been embraced (via email) by the Interdisciplinary Program. 

 

Sigh.  Hopefully my upcoming campus visit will make the choice clearer.  No sense in driving myself mad with indecision just yet!

 

And thanks to you both for weighing in -- I appreciate being able to share the situation here, even in my quasi-anonymous, vague way. 

Edited March 1, 2013 by Katzenmusik

[New England Nat]

The idea that history departments are going to look different in ten years is... bizarre to me.  People being hired today are being hired by people who were hired ten or fifteen years ago.  There is also a long standing tendencyof history departments to want people with degrees that say "history" on them.  Try talking to a historical geographer about trying to be on the job market, or someone from an STS department.

[Katzenmusik]

They meant history hiring will be different.  Both of these historians mentioned that they thought practical skills and public-oriented scholarship would be more in demand than the traditional ivory tower type academics.  They work at different universities, and they both have decades of experience on hiring committees, so I thought it was interesting that they emailed me separately with the same thought.  

Edited March 2, 2013 by Katzenmusik

[New England Nat]

The rise of public history certainly exists, but that's a very different thing than interdisciplinary work.

[Katzenmusik]

Yeah, everyone says it's harder to get a tenure-track history job with an interdisciplinary degree.  Many alumni of this program seem to end up in "studies" programs, though some are in history departments.  My sense is that those people present as historians -- by having a known historian as an advisor, presenting at history conferences, publishing in history journals, etc.

 

All that said, I'm open to alt-ac careers.  Anything but eternal adjunct-hood, really.  So the question isn't "how can I land on the tenure track?" but is "how can I optimize for an interesting life without impoverishing myself?"  I'd like to keep the TT option open, but I won't be devastated if life doesn't work out that way.

Edited March 2, 2013 by Katzenmusik

[New England Nat]

When I was looking at STS programs that was the advise I got.  Make sure that my adviser and most of my committee were historians, and be recognizable as a historian.

[GuitarSlayer]

I applied for PhD programs in History only, but I made sure that I had the option of getting a Medieval or Early Modern certificate.  That indicates that 1) you're well-rounded enough to teach those freshmen; 2) you're specific enough to teach the specialty courses.  Interdisciplinary is awesome, but you can't do a solely medieval degree and expect to get hired to teach US History I to freshmen -- which is where a lot of us are going to start our careers, honestly. 

Edited March 2, 2013 by GuitarSlayer

[kyjin]

Yeah, everyone says it's harder to get a tenure-track history job with an interdisciplinary degree.  Many alumni of this program seem to end up in "studies" programs, though some are in history departments.  My sense is that those people present as historians -- by having a known historian as an advisor, presenting at history conferences, publishing in history journals, etc.

That's a major reason why I applied to a majority of History PhDs as opposed to East Asian Studies.  With a History degree to my name, I have the option in the future for jobs in both History and East Asian Studies department, while the EASIA degree would limit my options.  But the training in interdisciplinary programs can be truly superb, again why I did my MA in EASIA.  I got all the training I need in my subfield, but at the end of the day, I'm still a historian, and will be back to a History department this fall.

[lateralus]

For those of you who will be going down for different Admitted Students Weekends, is your department footing the bill? I was planning on going to GWU, but they haven't mentioned anything about financing the trip. Would it be rude to ask my DGS? 

 

 

[czesc]

For those of you who will be going down for different Admitted Students Weekends, is your department footing the bill? I was planning on going to GWU, but they haven't mentioned anything about financing the trip. Would it be rude to ask my DGS?

 

The department I was admitted to is providing limited funds. It wouldn't hurt to ask, especially if you don't phrase it in an entitled way. Something like "is there any chance the department has funds to assist those who live away from Washington with travel to campus?"

Edited March 5, 2013 by czesc

[Katzenmusik]

It's usual for programs to offer at least some financial support for the trip.

 

One of my programs didn't offer any at first.  I asked about it as politely as possible, and they told me they would pay for my travel and hotel.   It turns out they had accidentally classed me as a local, and that's why I hadn't gotten that information previously. 

 

So I'd say go ahead and shoot them an email about it, phrased as czesc suggests.

[lafayette]

For those of you who will be going down for different Admitted Students Weekends, is your department footing the bill? I was planning on going to GWU, but they haven't mentioned anything about financing the trip. Would it be rude to ask my DGS? 

Mine all did (two were particularly generous), and like others have said, it wouldn't be rude at all, so long as you inquire and not demand

[Katzenmusik]

I've decided to base my decision entirely on which school's doctoral regalia looks the coolest.

 

Unfortunately I did not apply to McGill:

 

[kyjin]

I've decided to base my decision entirely on which school's doctoral regalia looks the coolest.

Haha, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought of this! XD I was totally googling the regalia for my prospective schools a month ago. 

[CrazyCatLady80]

Is the guy included? 

Edited March 6, 2013 by CrazyCatLady80

[reed155]

Hello, everyone! I really need advise on getting financial assistance for campus visits. The DGS at one of the schools that I am going to visit mentioned the financial aid available and redirected me to a very obnoxious administrative assistant to settle all logistics-related matters. The ad assistant gives very rude (no greetings, no sign off)  and unhelpful replies (I asked about possible funding in a similar way that Czech suggested). She simply ignores my questions about "any chance the department can offer a subsidy for my travel expenses" and answers other questions related to the program on my visit...I really don't know how to interpret this!

Edited March 6, 2013 by reed155

[czesc]

Hi reed. First, I wouldn't necessarily interpret the lack of greetings/sign off as a bad thing. Some people, especially older or busy administrators, don't adhere to email conventions that require these. It may just be her style, or the time of day you were emailing.

 

Second, I would politely bring up the fact that the DGS told you there was funding. If she keeps putting you off, attach the DGS' email, and maybe even cc the DGS, noting (again, politely) that your question hadn't yet been answered. Remember, they admitted you and want to get you to come to bring up their yield. At this point, they should have a "customer is always right" attitude toward a basic, promised service like this.

 

 

 

I've decided to base my decision entirely on which school's doctoral regalia looks the coolest.

 

Wow, the Canadian gowns look so much better. If I'd have known, I'd have applied to a whole different slate of schools. 

[reed155]

Czesc (I am sorry I misspelled you name in my previous post), thanks for advice. I'd be so relieved to know that abrupt e-mails with the lack of definite answers are explained by age/ busy schedule. Will have to remind her again...although I feel extremely awkward each time I have to write to her. Jeez, I hope if I accept their offer and will be studying there I won't have to communicate a lot with her.

[czesc]

Czesc (I am sorry I misspelled you name in my previous post)

 

No worries. It's not my name, anyway; it's just the Polish equivalent of "ciao".

[Canator]

Czesc (I am sorry I misspelled you name in my previous post), thanks for advice. I'd be so relieved to know that abrupt e-mails with the lack of definite answers are explained by age/ busy schedule. Will have to remind her again...although I feel extremely awkward each time I have to write to her. Jeez, I hope if I accept their offer and will be studying there I won't have to communicate a lot with her.

 

It might be easier to give her a call. It's much harder to dodge a question over the phone than it is via email. I know what it's like to deal with a snippy departmental administrator. Just keep pushing politely.