Decision dilemma (organic chemistry)

[weishayu]

Hi!!

 

    My major is organic synthesis. I got two offers from Scripps Institute and Columbia. 

    In my opinion, Scripps is the best school in organic chemistry. Baran and Yu are both super stars. Shenvi is also a rising star. I am a big fan of Baran. However, I don't like the pushing and competitive atmosphere at Scripps. And KC Nicolaou will leave Scripps in September 2013. Maybe the funding situation meet some little problems.

    Although Scripps is better place for organic research, Columbia is also an excellent school in organic chemsitry. The academic environment is more free and not pushing. I prefer this free atmosphere at Columbia and the life in the international metropolis.

    I have to make my final decision as soon as possible. 

    I wanna beg some advice!!

    Thanks.

[uromastyx]

If you want to be at a top program you better be prepared for a competitive environment. If you want to be with the top dogs then go with Scripps.

That being said, if you feel that Columbia suits you better, then you have your answer.

[bluerocket]

It is without a doubt that one should instead go to Scripps and work for either Baran or Boger if you want a serious research experience in organic chemistry. I would say Yu is only of interest if you like organopalladium chemistry (not quite a suitable match for target driven total synthesis), but I hear he's much more selective, whereas Baran seems a bit more ready to take students of a diverse background; that and, examine Yu's chemistry more carefully and it becomes rather repetitive--the problem selection in that group is not so challenging and ingenious. Baran is quite a smart guy and being exposed to his research program is pricless--look at some of his alumni to date who have been quite successful (Burns at Stanford, Maimone at UC Berkeley, Shenvi at Scripps, Lewis at Cornell). 

 

That said, it's not only the more relaxed environment, but Columbia offers an environment where one must teach--if you plan on heading into academia, it goes without saying that this experience is valuable. But I have listed a few examples where even without this experience, one can find an excellent position in academia. Columbia's more illustrious faculty (Breslow and Danishefsky) is unfortunately slowly being stripped away, so I would say a more rigorous treatment in organic chemistry would most definitely be at Scripps.

 

I think visiting both schools will inevitably force you to make a decision, but I say Scripps no doubt. 

Edited February 11, 2013 by bluerocket

[prolixity]

Hi!!

 

    My major is organic synthesis. I got two offers from Scripps Institute and Columbia. 

    In my opinion, Scripps is the best school in organic chemistry. Baran and Yu are both super stars. Shenvi is also a rising star. I am a big fan of Baran. However, I don't like the pushing and competitive atmosphere at Scripps. And KC Nicolaou will leave Scripps in September 2013. Maybe the funding situation meet some little problems.

    Although Scripps is better place for organic research, Columbia is also an excellent school in organic chemsitry. The academic environment is more free and not pushing. I prefer this free atmosphere at Columbia and the life in the international metropolis.

    I have to make my final decision as soon as possible. 

    I wanna beg some advice!!

    Thanks.

Go where you're comfortable; you're going to spend five or seven years there. The faculty at both institutions are top-notch and you're likely not going to work for the #1 top-dog at any institution, so figure out five or six people at each institution for whom you'd like to work.  When you visit, speak to the graduate students about their lifestyles.  Unless you're incredibly driven and focused, you'll probably want to work in an environment that isn't research-all-the-time...

 

but what do I know?  I'm just a chemical physicist who only puts in ten hour days six days a week.. which is nothing compared to the chemists in #1 top-dog's asymmetric catalysis lab who put in 12 or 14 hours every day of the week.

[UBackwardsChemistry]

I will respectfully disagree with bluerocket: I think that Tristan Lambert and Scott Snyder are bound for great things. Another huge knock against TSRI is, whether true or not, I've heard it through the grapevine that Baran is looking to move his group to wherever will give him the most funding...not exactly a great situation after losing Finn and Nicolau. I've always found Boger's chemistry to be kind of B+, but that's personal opinion.

[BovaFett]

Why are so many of you preening over these PI's like they're athletes? I fully understand that who you've worked for and where you went is certainly something to keep in mind post-graduate school, but seriously.  Find a school you can get into, and pick the PI with whom you'd be happiest over the next 5 years.  If that means being a 14-16 hour hard-worker (lab slave), go for it.  If that means finding a human that'll let you stick to 40-50 hours, have a life, and have free time to serve as an excellent mentor, then go that route.

 

In any event - don't look to others for their opinion, because those are certainly not going to reflect what you personally feel.

[rayray09]

[prolixity]

Why are so many of you preening over these PI's like they're athletes? I fully understand that who you've worked for and where you went is certainly something to keep in mind post-graduate school, but seriously.  Find a school you can get into, and pick the PI with whom you'd be happiest over the next 5 years.  If that means being a 14-16 hour hard-worker (lab slave), go for it.  If that means finding a human that'll let you stick to 40-50 hours, have a life, and have free time to serve as an excellent mentor, then go that route.

 

In any event - don't look to others for their opinion, because those are certainly not going to reflect what you personally feel.

There is a small core of faculty who drive applications at most schools.  Not every organic student at Harvard is going to work for Eric Jacobsen, though most initially think they want to.  The moral of the story is to find out about the other researchers at these schools and realize that they're all doing something awesome, even if they don't have the chemical celebrity status.

[NYLA]

Just my two cents - 

 

You should really just go to the visitations and speak to graduate students in the labs you are interested in. People from the outside have wildly different perspectives on lives in the labs you've mentioned. Some students will complain about how hard they work, others will say its great, even if they are working comparable hours and on similar projects. It's all related to how you perceive your own academic environment, so ignore everyone else and make the decision that is appropriate for you.

[Kava]

Just my two cents - 

 

You should really just go to the visitations and speak to graduate students in the labs you are interested in. People from the outside have wildly different perspectives on lives in the labs you've mentioned. Some students will complain about how hard they work, others will say its great, even if they are working comparable hours and on similar projects. It's all related to how you perceive your own academic environment, so ignore everyone else and make the decision that is appropriate for you.

 

I agree, that's what I am planning to do even though I was accepted into a couple of my top programs. Since I like all of the programs I applied to, I am going to try to be open-minded during my visits and not focus on rank or "prestige". Ultimately, I am going to pick what feels the best for me...I don't want to be miserable for the next 5+ years. But it all depends on what YOU want and what you can handle.

[SymmetryOfImperfection]

organic synthesis is different from physical chemistry and chemical physics. in physical chemistry you use computers and math to plan experiments and design new materials and analytical methods. That is to say, if you have good insights, mathematical intuition and strong skills working with electronics and machinery, you can get stuff done much faster than people that do not have this sort of skill.

 

organic chemistry, in my perspective, is putting in the hours of busy work and if you don't put in the hours you don't get results.

 

Go where you're comfortable; you're going to spend five or seven years there. The faculty at both institutions are top-notch and you're likely not going to work for the #1 top-dog at any institution, so figure out five or six people at each institution for whom you'd like to work.  When you visit, speak to the graduate students about their lifestyles.  Unless you're incredibly driven and focused, you'll probably want to work in an environment that isn't research-all-the-time...

 

but what do I know?  I'm just a chemical physicist who only puts in ten hour days six days a week.. which is nothing compared to the chemists in #1 top-dog's asymmetric catalysis lab who put in 12 or 14 hours every day of the week.

Edited February 12, 2013 by SymmetryOfImperfection

[weishayu]

Thanks to all of you!!

Scripps' deadline is coming. So I don't have time to go to visitations. But I asked different guys in Baran lab, Shenvi lab, KC lab and Snyder lab.

Especially, Baran made a phone call to me.

The funding situation at Scripps is fine. The hardest time in most professor lab have gone. I heart that some professors didn't like Scripps' new principal. And NIH will not support KC's huge project any longer. Maybe these two points made KC decide to leave.

 

Finally, after my consideration, I choose Scripps. I still wanna focus my most time and energy on research. After all, hard work is inevitable if I wanna achieve more academic accomplishment. San Diego is also a great place to live.