How snobbish are the Ivys???

[practical cat]

Okay but trans men are men. And many of them will be the first to tell you that they do, in fact, have male privilege - just not cis privilege.

They don't necessarily have male privilege as it is privilege associated with biology, which is what the question asked. I believe that I explicitly stated that trans-men are men. Gender/sex privilege is a complicated and interesting topic within the queer community, yes.

Editing because I reread and saw I definitely was using some maybe-slippery language in my original post. I say "identify as men" as entirely synonymous with but more accurate than "are men." Sorry if that read as problematic because I didn't specify the bounds of my terms!

Edited February 12, 2013 by girl who wears glasses

[rems]

Okay but trans men are men. And many of them will be the first to tell you that they do, in fact, have male privilege - just not cis privilege.

 

Well, I think you're edging into dangerous territory with that one. 

[rems]

No doubt, I was feeling your point. I just question the political purchase of totalizing categories such as "male," or "male privilege." And, I find it to be ethically imperative to allow room for such questioning--which is why I tried to create some. Keep it moving y'aal, nothing to see here. (Edit: Legit, I wasn't attacking anybody here. I am actually, mindfully and admittedly, violently derailing the conversation for hedonistic purposes.) 

 

I'm out of upvotes, or else I would upvote this. And I usually don't use them. 

[Troppman]

Regarding swear words such as "biology," are accusations of essentialism not always already essentializing gestures that deny heterogeneity...

[Troppman]

I'm out of upvotes, or else I would upvote this. And I usually don't use them. 

To make good on the intention of exchange, I will upvote your post. 

[practical cat]

Regarding swear words such as "biology," are accusations of essentialism not always already essentializing gestures that deny heterogeneity...

LOLing forever, thank you.

[bluecheese]

Are we talking a FtM or MtF trans person, or what? Also, "male privilege" is an abstraction that probably needs to be defined -- I'm sure both forms of trans people (and the massive flux gender across the spectrum) benefit from some kind of male privilege. In that sense, we might even say that women sometimes benefit from it as well (depending on how they carry themselves, etc.) Again, it depends on what types/aspects of male privilege we're talking about. MtF trans people get beat up, can't find jobs (thanks to discrimination), and often end up in and out of prison (at shockingly high percentage rates). One might say that they have had some kinds of "male privilege" at some point in their life (possibly in terms of how they were treated in school growing up, by their parents, etc.). Really, it is all very slippery territory. 

Edited February 12, 2013 by bluecheese

[practical cat]

Are we talking a FtM or MtF trans person, or what? Also, "male privilege" is an abstraction that probably needs to be defined -- I'm sure both forms of trans people (and the massive flux gender across the spectrum) benefit from some kind of male privilege. In that sense, we might even say that women sometimes benefit from it as well (depending on how they carry themselves, etc.) Again, it depends on what type aspects of male privilege we're talking about. MtF trans people get beat up, can't find jobs (thanks to discrimination), and often end up in and out of prison (at shockingly high percentage rates). One might say that they have had some kind of male privilege at some point in their life (possibly in terms of how they were treated in school growing up, by their parents, etc.). Really, it is all very slippery territory. 

When I say trans-man, I mean ftm. And, yeah. What you said. I think the term "male privilege" is quite meaningless (and maybe even actively harmful) outside the bounds of an exclusively cis-heteronormative community.

[DontHate]

I was merely pointing out that if we are going to be outing the privileged on this thread, that implicates all of us. I'm not denying that I'm privileged. It just feels like people often do point fingers without much introspection attached to the act of pointing. 

 

I mentioned my grandparents in order to contrast the idea of the landed aristocracy (which shaped the class structure in England) with the ascendant middle class in the US. Class isn't something we are raised to believe is in our bloodlines, in the US. It's much more of a self-designation that can change at any moment. So many people describe themselves as "middle class" in this country that the term is almost meaningless.  

[ProfLorax]

What I don't understand is why anyone is defending the Ivies as if they are an oppressed group that need protection. If some peeps on the Internet want to critique elitism and analyze class difference, I don't think the Ivies are going to lose any of their prestige. No Ivy professor is going to read this thread and then cry hirself to sleep tonight. I promise.

 

I wanted to upvote a ton of the posts on this thread for talking about class privilege and the like (seriously, how do I run out of upvotes so quickly?!). My only addition is that class rarely exists in a vacuum; class issues are often directly tied to other forms of prejudice and discrimination: racism, sexism, homophobia, ableism, etc. To look at class as simply a distinction between rich, middle, and lower class, as Don't Hate seems to be doing, is to ignore the complicated history of class, identity, and power in the United States (and really, the world at large).

[Troppman]

I'm feeling it, bluecheese. On another tangential note absolutely not geared towards specific things said here, I wish that one could critically engaged questions of masculinity in this academic climate without being dismissed as a masculinist or under-read fool. That being said, I'm sure that my wish could come true were I to be smoother with the whole pitching a project thing.

[thestage]

class certainly exists in america.  even "factually," as we are one of the least socioeconomically mobile countries in the world.

 

class in america, however, exists in terms quite apart from what we associate class with historically (ie, physical labor, genealogy, etc.).  for instance, if you get into a graduate program and spend seven years with a PhD stipend, congratulations, you are no longer upper middle class.  you will pretend you are, because you are doing things that poor people don't understand, but you are, in fact, poor.  and if you do not get a job as a tenure track professor, you will continue to be poor and you will no longer have a way out.  you will still think you are upper middle class, you will still act like you are upper middle class, and you will occasionally affect the trappings of the upper middle class by buying things you can't afford--but when you turn in your food stamps, you will be lower class.  in related terms, this is also in actuality the definition of the hipster, that nebulous term that people insist is undefinable and/or doesn't exist and/or only designates better taste than nothipster.  a hipster is a poor person who does not understand or accept the realities of poverty, and who will consequently appropriate imagery of "traditional" poverty in order to neutralize it.

 

this is but one minor example, of course.  there are swaths of what you might call "traditional" poor people, and just because you will read stories of one of their children going to Harvard in order to Become The System (the fact that this story exists as story someone assumed you would like to read already assumes entrenched class relations) does not mean we are particularly graceful in our ability to forget how broken we are.

[bluecheese]

spend seven years with a PhD stipend, congratulations, you are no longer upper middle class.  you will pretend you are, because you are doing things that poor people don't understand, but you are, in fact, poor.  and if you do not get a job as a tenure track professor, you will continue to be poor and you will no longer have a way out

 

broke, not poor. A PhD student has so much cultural capital -- also, anyone with a PhD can get an MBA at any moment. They may choose not to, but let's not conflate graduate stipends and uneducated wage labor. I currently make 13k a year as a GTA; I don't have much. That said, I'm not working 60 hours a week at a fast food joint to make 13k... and I'm building my CV, etc. while making 13k. I have no intention of ever going to law school or of getting an MBA, but I am privileged (and critical of my own privilege... to the best of my 13k a year ability... that said, I do wish that I was more involved than the couple of protests and donation work that I do every year... I'm kind of a shitty person).

Edited February 13, 2013 by bluecheese

[Darth.Vegan]

@TheStage

 

There is more to class status than just net worth. Only a small percentage of the population can count themselves as part of the highly educated, which includes significant political capital that is a form of class status in and of itself. 

[thestage]

broke, not poor. I PhD student has so much cultural capital -- also, anyone with a PhD can get an MBA at any moment.

 

what makes you think this? what MBA program that isn't a ponzi scheme cares about your academic achievements?  and who in the world, outside of the institutions to which you are already indentured, cares the slightest about your CV?  the "cultural capital" a PhD in the humanities caries with it, to the greater world, is that of the worthless academic siphoning money off the system for something the 'real world' would never pay him for.  sure, the new york times might theoretically call you to ask you questions when some news story breaks about something tangentially related to your existence; maybe you'll even get to write for such a "prestigious" publication.  for which they will pay you nothing.  and which no one will care about.

 

you are right that people will assume a certain background and append to you a certain social privilege if you have a PhD. but their will be no envy, and the realities of capitalism do not care for these appearances.  your nominal "protests and donation work" do not curtail your privilege, they are efforts to maintain it.  after all, no real person has the time or ability to care about something against which they might protest, save what their union tells them to do.  and you can't even unionize!

Edited February 13, 2013 by thestage

[Troppman]

Regarding notions of cultural capital, lettuce not forget the intricacies of a cleft-habitus. 

[thestage]

@TheStage

 

There is more to class status than just net worth. Only a small percentage of the population can count themselves as part of the highly educated, which includes significant political capital that is a form of class status in and of itself. 

 

when your social classes are those of the capitalists, capitalism will dictate the parameters of membership.  things like education, background, race, etc. are relics of the old system conveniently appropriated by the new one to divide the lower classes among themselves.  to the system, your education is worth what it nets you.  and that is increasingly a whole lot of nothing.

[planesandtrains]

To end the male privilege thing, what bluecheese said. I just meant that declaring trans men not really male and thus exempt from male privilege is problematic, as is the idea that male privilege is based on biology - I mean, I know trans men (that means FtM) with beards, big muscles, and low voices! It ain't that simple. (I know that's not what you meant, girl with glasses, and the language is slippery, but I'm just clarifying what I'm responding to.) My original analogy was just meant to say "people with privilege can and should critique privilege," not dictate which groups do and do not have "privilege" and in what contexts or imply that it's simple.

 

DontHate, no one here is pointing fingers at "the privileged." Just the privilege-denying. And the fact that we in the US aren't raised to believe class is not fixed is exactly the point, and why it's more of a problem in the US than most other developed countries - it allows us to deny its existence and makes it invisible, which gives it even more power. Nor is it just a self-designation one can capriciously change. It exerts real influence on people's lives, and is not nearly as fluid as we are all brought up to believe. You keep talking about other people being unreflective and pointing fingers, but from where I'm standing, you're doing the most finger-pointing and the least self-examination.

 

And the stage I mean there's a reason we say socioeconomic class and not just economic class. It's not just determined by the number on your paycheck. Again, it ain't that simple!

 

Okay I gotta be done with this conversation. Back to lurking.

[Troppman]

I find this song to be a critique, a protest even, against politics of difference that implicitly assume a certain identity:

 

 

... I can no longer justify derailing threads. Too much plan b'ing to do...

[bluecheese]

LOTS of MBA programs that aren't that hard to get into and many of them have extreamly high job placement records (90%+). And the MBA was just an example, any number of professional schools, etc. are there as backup plans for PhD students (teaching in high schools even). People in PhD programs are in privileged positions.

 

Shit, I have a friend who is working as an adjunct who makes 35k a year (he's working his ass off teaching 4 courses a semester, but still).   My father worked as a wage laborer (janitor) for most of his life and never made more than 35k, and he only made close to that when he somehow managed to score a public works job working (working 80+ hours a week). And aside from the two years he worked there, he never made more than 20k. My education puts me in a highly privileged place. The stipend NYU offered me is almost as much as the MOST my father ever made in his entire life. Seriously, if you don't think you're privileged you're delusional. If you're not highly critical of the privilege that you do have, you're an asshole.

Edited February 13, 2013 by bluecheese

[bfat]

 I don't look down on poor people. I look down on weak minds.

 

I'd just like to point out that this is, like, the definition of intellectual snobbery, which is just as offensive and off-putting as class-based snobbery.

 

http://youtu.be/ymsHLkB8u3s

 

Why do we love Will Hunting? Not because he's smarter than that other dude, but because he's not a dick about it.

 

 

[i realize this clip brings up a heck of a lot about class and also perpetuates the Ivy-Snob stereotype, but I just wanted to draw attention to the fact that intellectual snobbery is just as bogus as class elitism.]

[DontHate]

I love watching a thread blow up

[practical cat]

To end the male privilege thing, what bluecheese said. I just meant that declaring trans men not really male and thus exempt from male privilege is problematic, as is the idea that male privilege is based on biology - I mean, I know trans men (that means FtM) with beards, big muscles, and low voices! It ain't that simple. (I know that's not what you meant, girl with glasses, and the language is slippery, but I'm just clarifying what I'm responding to.) My original analogy was just meant to say "people with privilege can and should critique privilege," not dictate which groups do and do not have "privilege" and in what contexts or imply that it's simple.

 

I get you. I just find that saying "no" to the original question asked by StephD way back to be just as problematic. With my "necessarily," I believe I acknowledged the slippery "biology" of various gender identities. I don't think "male" and "female" are helpful or even interesting categories which is why I challenged the use of "male privilege" in the first place. I absolutely, 100% get what you're saying, I just think these are important things to continue discussing with the best language possible which is why I'm clarifying now.

I am really, truly enjoying reading this thread and I love how respectful and thoughtful it has been.

[thestage]

LOTS of MBA programs that aren't that hard to get into and many of them have extreamly high job placement records (90%+). And the MBA was just an example, any number of professional schools, etc. are there as backup plans for PhD students (teaching in high schools even). People in PhD programs are in privileged positions.

 

Shit, I have a friend who is working as an adjunct who makes 35k a year (he's working his ass off teaching 4 courses a semester, but still).   My father worked as a wage laborer (janitor) for most of his life and never made more than 35k, and he only made close to that when he somehow managed to score a public works job working (working 80+ hours a week). And aside from the two years he worked there, he never made more than 20k. My education puts me in a highly privileged place. The stipend NYU offered me is almost as much as the MOST my father ever made in his entire life. Seriously, if you don't think you're privileged you're delusional. If you're not highly critical of the privilege that you do have, you're an asshole.

 

Those are not "backup plans" for PhD students, they are alternatives.  Could you have done those things?  Maybe.  But you didn't (and you likely think yourself superior for it).  An MBA looks at your professional resume, of which you will have none after you get your PhD.  A "professional school" is open to anyone with the money.  You won't have the money.  I like how you assume high school teaching is a fall back (analyze that privilege!).  It's a different career path.  Many school districts flat out will not hire people with PhDs, not (only) because they are not particularly qualified, but because teacher's unions frown upon the practice.  With largely good reason.

 

I'm sure you have an adjunct friend who makes 35k a year for 60 hour work weeks, no benefits, and no promise of continued employment.  You can call that a privileged life if you would like, but even then that is not you.  You will be making the NYU stipend before you can even dream of employment of any kind, and that stipend is not enough money to even live in the city in which your spectacularly wealthy institution is located.  You will be working at least 60 hours a week, and the stipend is in all likelihood not even guaranteed for a long enough term to finish your dissertation, upon completion of which you will be guaranteed exactly nothing.  If you are lucky you have seventeen years between the day you arrive at a PhD program and the day you become a tenured professor.  And this is a salary you had to claw someone's face off in order to receive.  Ok, it's slightly more than the janitor makes.  Congratulations.  And the sad part is I even envy you, because at this point I am closer to your father than to you.

 

Do you know who isn't critical of the privilege they have? Corporate executives, investment bankers, corporate lawyers, lobbyists, senators, brokers.  Yeah, you say, but they're all assholes.  OK.  They rule the world.  What are you going to do about it?  Direct your meager social capital at maintaining your own slight privilege through the illusion of analysis while they grind your face into the mud, or take that affected academic distance and point the gaze upwards?

 

I get that there are differences between your father and the poor graduate student with no tenure position possible on the other side.  And, to go further, between Tyrelle in the projects and either of those two people.  But to emphasize those differences over the differences that rule and dictate them from above is too convenient and lazy.  If there is anything your education nets you on a social scale, it is this ability to see the forest instead of the trees.

Edited February 13, 2013 by thestage

[Marie-Luise]

To get back to my original point: I was interested in people's opinions on Ivys specifically, since I applied to one.

For the record, I don't think it's a silly question; it's quite a serious one actually. It would be a silly question if there wasn't a grain of truth about it. Like, "Can pigs be blue?"

I am aware that snobbish behaviour is my no means limited to Ivy League students and I am not automatically accusing anyone of snobbiness because they go to an Ivy. Far from it.

I didn't expect the answer to my post to be either yes or no. Because there is no such definitive answer. I am simply curious, as an outsider coming into the system, what the perceptions are from the inside. Naturally, I am playing with the cliches first.

 

Thanks for all your responses!