Withdrawing from Interview Weekend?

[funchaku]

I have been accepted to a few of my top choices, which I am really shocked about, but I am now left with a new problem. I have loved corresponding with everyone at the different schools, and it feels like a heavy, overwhelming decision to choose one and close doors on the others. I wanted to make life easier for myself and everyone else, and withdrew my application from consideration at the schools I have yet to hear from. But a while back, I committed to attend the interview weekend at JHU. It originally conflicted with another open house, but the faculty at both universities went to a lot of trouble to arrange a schedule that would work. JHU is not really on my radar anymore, and I feel like I would be wasting their time and money if I still go. But I can't help but feel guilty, and am at a loss as to the appropriate protocol. Help? 

[Phonolog]

What you'll want to do is take advantage of the visits, if the schools are paying for them one hundred percent. Get to know the professors and share your interests because they might be hiring you one day. Get quotes on stipends, and put yourself up for auction - tell schools what others are offering you. What if JHU offers you $22k, but MIT $20K? You tell MIT. You're allowed to start a bidding war - you're a highly sought after employee.

 

But above all, take advantage of the free trips and connections you can forge. There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with going shopping for something you know you'll never buy. Don't feel guilty. Yes, there might be wait lists with qualified students that need to be granted a place, But you deserve to explore all the options that were given to you. And perhaps you'll discover some hidden gems in a school that's off your radar.

 

There's many different important facets to your choice, and of course we've all thought about:

1. Research fit

2. Do I want to live there for 5 years

3. Will I get hired with a diploma from this school

4. How much are they paying

 

But, what might be even MORE important:

1. Hame I happy physically being there?

2. Are people nice? Do I feel uncomfortable or threatened around them? Can I be myself?

3. I was accepted based on my currents interests and knowledge - will I still feel comfortable here if I go off on a tangent one day and change my research focus? How flexible is this department?

4. The town looked nice in pictures, but could I really enjoy it here? Are there enough recreational activitites? Do the current students seem well balanced and sane?

 

For example, for my research interests, I could go to a certain school that would be perfect for me. But I get a weird vibe. But I only know that because I attended that school for 6 months of my masters. But I would never have known if I had never gone. And maybe it could be the other way around for you - you never know.

[funchaku]

Thanks, Phonolog, this was really helpful, I think I am leaning towards going!

 

Btw, is this really true? I thought there was just a standard package the school gives the accepted students, unless you have outside funding of some sort..

Get quotes on stipends, and put yourself up for auction - tell schools what others are offering you. What if JHU offers you $22k, but MIT $20K? You tell MIT. You're allowed to start a bidding war - you're a highly sought after employee.

[misskira]

(I'm not linguistics, but this thread showed up as a recent topic so I clicked on it. )

 

Unless you are 100% sure you will not attend the program for some reason, I would still go.  You were interested enough in their program to apply, so it's worth it to give them your full consideration.  I've read quite a few times about people not thinking the program will be the one they choose, but they change their mind after the visit.

 

As for the bidding war... I wouldn't necessarily volunteer the information unless it seems relevant or you are asked.  After the visit, if you are interested in attending there are ways to bring up the financial package that doesn't leave you sounding like a jerk.  Even if you don't attend the program, you don't want to leave a bad impression.  You never know when you're going to meet these people again, so it's worth making the effort to decline on a posittive note.

[deleted_account]

I second what everyone suggested. And you should take advantage of the interview for a few additional reasons: 

 

1) Preparation. The more interviews you attend, the more comfortable you'll feel speaking with professors, and the better prepared you'll be for the next one. This is especially true for me since I don't interview well to begin with.

2) Networking. You might end up collaborating with these professors one day, or you might end up applying for a post-doc or faculty position. I think it's worthwhile to start forming these relationships. If anything, it puts you on their radar.

3) Complete experience. You get to see what graduate life is like, both in and outside of the lab. You might be pleasantly surprised (or maybe disappointed) with what JHU and the surrounding community has to offer.

 

I also sent you a PM.

[moody]

I would echo the others in strongly encouraging you to go.  Even if you are 90% certain that you will not end up attending JHU, there are many very interesting people there and you should take the opportunity to talk about work and establish professional relationships.  They expect you to have other options, and they will not be offended if you end up going elsewhere.  Even at top programs only about 50% of the admission offers are accepted, and everyone knows that many factors feed into a decision.

 

That said – do not try to negotiate a better package; linguistics departments typically have very little leeway with this, for all kinds of reasons.  I have seen people try to negotiate in the past, and it was not well perceived.  In general, top linguistics programs have standard packages that are given to everyone, and the culture of the field is such that this is interpreted as a desirable state of affairs.  (To understand the approach people tend to have, it may help to think about where and when generative linguistics took off.)

[goldheartmountaintop]

I agree with what everyone said about going to all the open houses you can for the reasons mentioned above! It's definitely good to start setting up professional relationships and also just get a sense of what it's like at the schools, even if they're not on your radar for PhD studies right now. I also agree with moody and misskira, though; I don't think trying to negotiate more funding would leave a very good impression at all, even if you are a highly sought-after student. 

[funchaku]

Thanks everyone! This makes me feel a lot better/lot less guilty 

[mylime]

I would echo the others in strongly encouraging you to go.  Even if you are 90% certain that you will not end up attending JHU, there are many very interesting people there and you should take the opportunity to talk about work and establish professional relationships.  They expect you to have other options, and they will not be offended if you end up going elsewhere.  Even at top programs only about 50% of the admission offers are accepted, and everyone knows that many factors feed into a decision.

 

That said – do not try to negotiate a better package; linguistics departments typically have very little leeway with this, for all kinds of reasons.  I have seen people try to negotiate in the past, and it was not well perceived.  In general, top linguistics programs have standard packages that are given to everyone, and the culture of the field is such that this is interpreted as a desirable state of affairs.  (To understand the approach people tend to have, it may help to think about where and when generative linguistics took off.)

 

 

I agree with what everyone said about going to all the open houses you can for the reasons mentioned above! It's definitely good to start setting up professional relationships and also just get a sense of what it's like at the schools, even if they're not on your radar for PhD studies right now. I also agree with moody and misskira, though; I don't think trying to negotiate more funding would leave a very good impression at all, even if you are a highly sought-after student. 

 

Can anyone else speak to negotiating funding? I was under the impression that it was expected, within reason, to discreetly mention other schools' offers/inquire as to the potential for more financial support. But the only knowledge I really have about negotiating funds is via my cousin's experience in law school, which is quite a different bag from linguistics doctoral programs (less contact with profs, higher volume of applicants and accepted students, etc.), so perhaps I'm totally off here.

[moody]

Maybe I should have been a bit more circumspect.  When I said that you should not negotiate, I was referring to PhD programs that routinely fund all of their admitted students for ~5 years.  If you were admitted to two Master's programs and one offered you a .5 TA and the other offered you a 1.0 TA, you might try negotiating.  In a department where all grad students are funded, though, the size of the stipend is typically determined by the department in conjunction with the university.  Sometimes there are opportunities to do summer RA work or something for exta money, and people might mention these things if you raise the issue of support.  They would probably also mention applying for NSF and other fellowships.  Really, though, there is little that can be done about your basic stipend in the general case, and I would be very careful in raising something like this. 

 

tl;dr Linguistics PhD programs must be different than law school along this dimension.

[ladyling]

Negotiating very much depends on the program. Santa Cruz offers the same package to all incoming students, in part to promote a collegial environment where no one is competing with anyone else for funding. This is not the case everywhere, but I would strongly discourage starting a "bidding war." If your top choice is offering you significantly less than another school, and you think you would be perfectly happy in that other program, it's fair to say "this is where I want to be, but the decision is hard for me to make financially" and see if they can help you out. But using a program you have no plans to attend as leverage against a program you definitely want to attend is likely to leave a bad impression in both places.

 

That said, I would still encourage you to visit JHU for the other reasons mentioned--you don't really know a place until you've visited. You may find that MIT remains your dream school, and nothing sways you, but it's also possible that when you visit MIT, you may find yourself less pleased with certain aspects of it that seemed fine in print, and that the reverse may be true at JHU.

 

**As a side note, a good way to learn about how funding works at different programs is to ask current students how funding happens. Even if they didn't negotiate, they're likely to know whether it's on the table.

Edited February 18, 2013 by ladyling

[mylime]

Thanks, moody and ladyling!

[fuzzylogician]

Negotiating very much depends on the program. Santa Cruz offers the same package to all incoming students, in part to promote a collegial environment where no one is competing with anyone else for funding. This is not the case everywhere, but I would strongly discourage starting a "bidding war." If your top choice is offering you significantly less than another school, and you think you would be perfectly happy in that other program, it's fair to say "this is where I want to be, but the decision is hard for me to make financially" and see if they can help you out. But using a program you have no plans to attend as leverage against a program you definitely want to attend is likely to leave a bad impression in both places.

 

That said, I would still encourage you to visit JHU for the other reasons mentioned--you don't really know a place until you've visited. You may find that MIT remains your dream school, and nothing sways you, but it's also possible that when you visit MIT, you may find yourself less pleased with certain aspects of it that seemed fine in print, and that the reverse may be true at JHU.

 

**As a side note, a good way to learn about how funding works at different programs is to ask current students how funding happens. Even if they didn't negotiate, they're likely to know whether it's on the table.

 

MIT offers the same funding package to everyone, with a reasoning similar to that of  UCSC, and will not negotiate with you. Personally, I chose MIT over another school that offered significantly more funding (much more than a 2K difference). Once it was clear that the stipend I would get from MIT would be enough to live a comfortable (student) life in Cambridge, I chose according to fit and not according to the money. Then again, I came here without a family and could afford to have the priorities that I did; I understand that others may have reasons to prioritize differently.

 

Unlike some other advice in this thread, I'd recommend not attending the JHU interview. We're not talking about a post-acceptance open house with a chance to make some connections here, we're talking about a place that's still making decisions. Your decision to behave as if you're still a serious candidate may influence the adcom's offers and therefore seriously impact other applicants' lives (i.e., someone might get rejected who would otherwise have gotten an offer, if you weren't in the picture). If you know you're not going to attend, the honest thing to do is to withdraw your application. I did a similar thing with Brown and it was very much appreciated by the faculty. We stayed in contact and I even received advice from some of them about the options I was seriously considering. If you know JHU is out of the running, I think the fair thing to do is to let them know.

[ladyling]

I didn't realize JHU had not yet made its decisions. Given that, I have to agree with fuzzylogician. It is often the case (i.e., when schools don't have waitlists) that once a program admits a candidate, they cannot use the money they get from the department to fund any other candidates. Your decision to withdraw may mean that someone who really wants to go can, whereas if you attended and were accepted while not intending to go, they would not be able to.

[Phonolog]

Reading through, I suppose there is much to consider. I suppose fuzzylogician is correct; I was saying you should attend because you should remain open to all schools to which you applied. But if you are absolutely certain you wouldn't attend if offered admission (no matter what), by all means allow a spot to remain open for other candidates. But I think you should go and remain open to attending because you don't know anything until you've visited.

 

As far as a `bidding` war, I was told it was good to do. I never considered doing it myself because I know all of my still prospective schools equalize students (except McGill, where as a Quebec resident, I am severely underfunded as opposed to international students because I receive government funding and not McGill funding - go figure).

 

On a similar subject, in the Linguistics 2013 forum we did discuss international vs. domestic preference. For McGill, it is correct - because the Canadian system requires quotas to be filled by provincial residents. So I'm the best prospective linguistics student from a province of 8.000.000 people. Wow, I feel SO special. Thus my insecurity about my abilities because I don't know of any other major linguistics schools other than us and and U Ottawa with such quotas (UToronto and UBC have special exemptions, so if you were accepted there and a Ont or BC resident, it was because you were awesome).

 

Fek, t'es de Québec et tu sais ce que c'est un phonème, ben voyons, comptes-toi un futur McGillien

 

By the way, many people are mentioning "leaving a bad impression". I think if you honestly say "I am broke from tons of studying, financial considerations matter in my final decision", would be appropriate. Firstly, because it's probably true unless you're independently wealthy or come from a state-subsidized free system. Even here in Quebec where we pay $2000 a semester in tuition, we all come out $50k - $60k in debt and making enough so that you don't compile CC debt during a PhD is important. Secondly, if being honest and saying this (to the right person, with whom you develope some sort of rapport) still "leaves a bad impression", I believe THIS would be criteria for wondering if you want to go there - these people might not be understanding of where you're at in life and don't care. But then again, I am very informal and only want to be in departments which are like this. But this might not be a priority for you at all ...

[MissTrace]

Hey funchaku congrats on all these nice offers! I have an off-topic issue to raise. Will you attend the open house of Rutgers? I somehow know that you will :-). Could you share some info about their department after your visit on Feb 27? I'm currently on their waiting list and would like to know how their department is like. Also, if you have a chance, could you help us (apparently there are at least 4 of us on that list) ask those 4 or 5 admitted students whether or not they plan to attend Rutgers? Tons of thanks!

Though I envy your offers, I wish you all the wisdom in making a good decision on where to go. Hope your decision could free some of us from these lists, haha.

[Phonolog]

Hey funchaku congrats on all these nice offers! I have an off-topic issue to raise. Will you attend the open house of Rutgers? I somehow know that you will :-). Could you share some info about their department after your visit on Feb 27? I'm currently on their waiting list and would like to know how their department is like. Also, if you have a chance, could you help us (apparently there are at least 4 of us on that list) ask those 4 or 5 admitted students whether or not they plan to attend Rutgers? Tons of thanks!

Though I envy your offers, I wish you all the wisdom in making a good decision on where to go. Hope your decision could free some of us from these lists, haha.

Don't worry too much Trace, the same group of 10-20 students are the ones accepted everywhere (except for me, since I made it clear my interests are narrow rather than broad); and the same 10-20 are on all the waiting lists. You will go to one of your dream schools, but you probably know that