Is Elliott worth sticker price?

[The Mark]

The only decision I'm still waiting on (that I care about) is MSFS. But I got dinged at SAIS so MSFS, short of a miracle, is virtually a guaranteed reject. Still haven't heard from SIS, but it would take a full ride for me to even consider it, and that isn't happening. 

 

It's looking like the Elliott ITIP program at sticker price is my only option. Is it worth it? I know some of you have been in a similar (or the exact same) situation. I'd love to hear some opinions on this and/or the ITIP program in general.

[JFactor]

I'm curious why you rank SIS and Elliott so differently? You're considering paying the sticker price for Elliott (ITIP) but you would need a full ride to even consider SIS (IER). I'm under the impression that the programs are quite close in terms of quality; maybe I would rank Elliott a little ahead of AU but not that dramatically. I'm curious.

[The Mark]

Perhaps I was a bit hasty. Maybe not a full ride, but I would need some significant funding from SIS to make me consider it. Why? If I'm gonna be brutally honest, prestige is an important factor to me, considering my undergrad institution had zero, and I feel that prestige is at least somewhat connected to future opportunities. My perception is similar to yours between the two schools, that they're similar, but it seems to me, based on some of what I've read around here, that Elliott does edge out American in terms of quality of program, alumni, and opportunity, etc., even if only marginally. I just officially got dinged at MSFS a few minutes ago, so it looks like my initial conundrum remains. Also, I'm seriously considering working on my app and reapplying next year. Not quite sure yet.

[JFactor]

Yeah I think I know where you're coming from. Full disclosure - I got my BA from AU (SIS) recently, but like I said, I also feel that GWU is a little bit ahead, not academically, but in terms of networking, career services/opportunities, and the reputation.

[nisyum]

Did you get your notice from MSFS a few weeks ago?

I just heard back from GWU MIA and got accepted a few days ago but haven't heard from Georgetown. Should I be worried?

[The Mark]

Someone in the MSFS thread said their decision was up even though they hadn't gotten an email, so I checked and mine was there too. This was about 30 minutes ago. 

[mnboy]

I don't think any of these programs are worth paying full price for.

[Goose1459]

I don't think any of these programs are worth paying full price for.

 

With regards to GWU/American or any IR Professional program?

[mnboy]

Any IR masters. They're outrageously expensive.

 

Taking SAIS as an example, every person I've spoken with who graduated from SAIS has all told me the same thing - if you're paying full price for it, it's not worth it and I think that's true for any Masters at any of these schools we are applying to.

[leon32]

Can anyone comment on the likelihood of finding good paying work in DC while studying at Elliott.  I'm in there and at Fletcher, but with very little funding at either.  If I can work during the day at Elliott, and it's not just all unpaid internships, that would make paying for everything much easier.  

[greenapplesea]

Call them up, make your case, and see if they'd be willing to negotiate. Elliott seems to be one of the most flexible schools in terms of offers, particularly if you have money from other schools and can use that to leverage. In terms of prestige, you're right that Elliott tend to feel like a step down from SFS, SAIS, and that crowd, but in my opinion, it's also the most practical IR degree that I've seen anywhere. Almost every student is working part- if not full-time while studying-- oftentimes that is unpaid or pays minimally, but that can be a huge asset when graduating, as you may be able to use that internship during school as the testing ground for a company and transition into full-time work immediately upon graduation. No guarantee, but IR grads from any school these days tend to go through a long testing/internship period AFTER graduation for a few months. That trend may be changing, but I observed it firsthand after 2012.

 

Disclaimer: I'm not applying to Elliott myself, nor any DC schools for that matter, so most of this is hearsay. Good luck!

[greenapplesea]

P.S. Regarding the likehood of finding well paid work: many DC firms have gotten better about paying their interns, but it's still usually a stipend of $10-$15 per hour for 20-30 hour weeks. You can get better pay by working in a restaurant, but this is a trade-off that many students must face. Additionally, many Elliott students choose to live far from the collosal rent prices of Foggy Bottom to try to minimize costs, but be sure to factor communting in. You can save hundreds of dollars in rent per month by living at the end of a metro line, but you will also likely need to pay about $5 per one-way ride, thanks to DC's metro. Once getting settled in DC, it's much easier to find the hidden gems of a lower cost in the city itself.

[lbjane]

The only decision I'm still waiting on (that I care about) is MSFS. But I got dinged at SAIS so MSFS, short of a miracle, is virtually a guaranteed reject. Still haven't heard from SIS, but it would take a full ride for me to even consider it, and that isn't happening. 

 

It's looking like the Elliott ITIP program at sticker price is my only option. Is it worth it? I know some of you have been in a similar (or the exact same) situation. I'd love to hear some opinions on this and/or the ITIP program in general.

 

I tend to agree with mnboy that no MPP or MA/IR is really worth crazy debt because public policy jobs don't pay huge salaries and the difference in career options between programs is not as pronounced as the difference between Law or MBA programs, especially if you're wanting to go in to government or non-profit work.  For every door a program may open, your debt load may close three others because you can't afford to live in DC on that salary and still make your monthly loan payment, for example. 

 

GWU is expensive and DC's an expensive city.  If it were me, I'd take a year, work on your GRE, work experience, statements, etc. and also cast a wider net when you apply next year.  You might get good financial aid and some nice stand-out opportunities at another school.  Sometimes you've got to just find the right school that's looking for applicants just like you.  

[CalSeeker]

I am currently in the GW ITIP program, so I thought I would offer my view.

 

I really like the program.  I think it is more marketable than the more general IA program and there is more individualized attention.  The program office does a good job of getting out information about internships and other opportunities.  I definitely think that the ability to intern or work during the day is a huge benefit of GW (though I believe American may be the same).  Everyone that I know of in the ITIP program has some kind of internship.  However, I believe most of them are not paid (though there are some).

 

As to whether the MA is worth it, I think it depends what you want to do.  For a lot of jobs in international orgs or think tanks, a grad degree is required.  If you look at bios of key public and private officials that work on international issues, almost all of them have grad degrees.  So I think that if you want to work in the field, it is important to have the degree eventually.  For government, the degree may be less important, but it is becoming more and more difficult to get a government job these days.  That's my take, at least.

 

Full disclosure: I am actually working full time and have a good financial package at GW, so the cost is less of an issue for me.  I still would have come to DC (and probably GW) for my degree if I had not gotten the job and scholarship right away, though.  I think it is very helpful to be here where the policy is actually happening and the employment/networking opportunities are greater, and the ability to work/intern during the day is key.

[JFactor]

Can I ask CalSeeker why you chose GWU over SAIS? Was it the scholaship money or something about the degree structure?

[CalSeeker]

Can I ask CalSeeker why you chose GWU over SAIS? Was it the scholaship money or something about the degree structure?

The main consideration was the ability to work while completing my degree at GW, which I needed to do since I have a family.  I think if I were single I would have preferred SAIS due to the rankings/brand.  I did get less money there, though, so that was a factor too.

 

In retrospect, I think the ITIP program in particular at GW is equivalent to or better than the quant/econ requirements at SAIS.  Overall, it was a better fit for me and what I want to do long term (i.e., international trade).

[The Mark]

I am currently in the GW ITIP program, so I thought I would offer my view.

 

I really like the program.  I think it is more marketable than the more general IA program and there is more individualized attention.  The program office does a good job of getting out information about internships and other opportunities.  I definitely think that the ability to intern or work during the day is a huge benefit of GW (though I believe American may be the same).  Everyone that I know of in the ITIP program has some kind of internship.  However, I believe most of them are not paid (though there are some).

 

As to whether the MA is worth it, I think it depends what you want to do.  For a lot of jobs in international orgs or think tanks, a grad degree is required.  If you look at bios of key public and private officials that work on international issues, almost all of them have grad degrees.  So I think that if you want to work in the field, it is important to have the degree eventually.  For government, the degree may be less important, but it is becoming more and more difficult to get a government job these days.  That's my take, at least.

 

Full disclosure: I am actually working full time and have a good financial package at GW, so the cost is less of an issue for me.  I still would have come to DC (and probably GW) for my degree if I had not gotten the job and scholarship right away, though.  I think it is very helpful to be here where the policy is actually happening and the employment/networking opportunities are greater, and the ability to work/intern during the day is key.

 

CalSeeker: That's very helpful information and exactly what I was looking for. Thank you. I certainly would like to/need to work full time during the two years I'm there, but I'm curious how one finds the time to do school work and study when you're at work all day and in class most of the evening. The ITIP program sounds like it's exactly what I'm looking for. My undergrad degree was kind of soft, so I was hell bent on finding a quality international economics program with great career opportunities. That sounds like what ITIP is. 

 

My real concern is borrowing money for the full cost of attendance. If I can manage to live off the money I make from a full-time or almost full-time job, then I would be willing to borrow only the cost of tuition, which, assuming tuition doesn't skyrocket this coming year, should be around $60k for two years. That seems like a reasonable debt burden considering the salary range reported in the most recent employment report. 

 

I'm curious what type of math background is needed to handle the quantitative component of the program. I had no real math courses in undergrad, just a couple of generic liberal arts math classes. If I accept the offer, I'm going to enroll in a introductory statistics course this summer. Do you think that would suffice? Or is there higher level math like calculus involved?  

[The Mark]

I tend to agree with mnboy that no MPP or MA/IR is really worth crazy debt because public policy jobs don't pay huge salaries and the difference in career options between programs is not as pronounced as the difference between Law or MBA programs, especially if you're wanting to go in to government or non-profit work.  For every door a program may open, your debt load may close three others because you can't afford to live in DC on that salary and still make your monthly loan payment, for example. 

 

GWU is expensive and DC's an expensive city.  If it were me, I'd take a year, work on your GRE, work experience, statements, etc. and also cast a wider net when you apply next year.  You might get good financial aid and some nice stand-out opportunities at another school.  Sometimes you've got to just find the right school that's looking for applicants just like you.  

 

I'm actually considering taking a year off and doing just that. But it's kind of a scary proposition. Outside of drastically improving my GRE, I feel like there's only so much I could accomplish professionally between now and the end of the year. Then I could apply and end up in a not too much better situation than I'm in now. To be perfectly honest, my GRE was atrocious, particularly my quant score. I have no idea how I got into the Elliott program I did. I have a feeling that was a big part of the reason for the rejections from SAIS and MSFS. I'm going to attempt to get some specific feedback from both programs, and if it's along the lines of "Improve your GRE scores and you've got a real shot", then I may do just that. My professional background is very nontraditional. I though thought it would be an asset—and I thought I explained pretty well in my statements why it would be—but I guess they didn't see it that way.

[Pinkman]

In retrospect, I think the ITIP program in particular at GW is equivalent to or better than the quant/econ requirements at SAIS.  Overall, it was a better fit for me and what I want to do long term (i.e., international trade).

Could you elaborate on that? I figured one of the main selling points of SAIS was their strong Econ program. 

[soaps]

I'm actually considering taking a year off and doing just that. But it's kind of a scary proposition. Outside of drastically improving my GRE, I feel like there's only so much I could accomplish professionally between now and the end of the year. Then I could apply and end up in a not too much better situation than I'm in now. To be perfectly honest, my GRE was atrocious, particularly my quant score. I have no idea how I got into the Elliott program I did. I have a feeling that was a big part of the reason for the rejections from SAIS and MSFS. I'm going to attempt to get some specific feedback from both programs, and if it's along the lines of "Improve your GRE scores and you've got a real shot", then I may do just that. My professional background is very nontraditional. I though thought it would be an asset—and I thought I explained pretty well in my statements why it would be—but I guess they didn't see it that way.

 

You got in because it's not particularly competitive. That's pretty much the bottom line, and no one I know who has gone there thinks it's worth the sticker price. Literally every GWU grad I met was in an internship that is usually filled by an undergrad, and every other one I met was in an entry-level position usually meant for people with no graduate degree. I think DC is oversaturated with GWU/American grads, and they aren't particularly experienced and so hog up a lot of entry-level positions. I'm sorry to put it bluntly, but it'd suck to take up that much debt just for you to realize that this is the GWU reputation in DC. I think if you're funded to go there, you can do reasonably well with a GWU degree, so I'd suggest getting relevant work experience.

Edited March 15, 2013 by soapwater

[JFactor]

In retrospect, I think the ITIP program in particular at GW is equivalent to or better than the quant/econ requirements at SAIS.  Overall, it was a better fit for me and what I want to do long term (i.e., international trade).

 

Thanks for your response. I'm also interested in what you said here because I'm going to focus on international trade as well and checked out the classes focused on trade that SAIS has to offer and they seem to be excellent and much more in depth than what most other IR programs have to offer. But I haven't researched Elliott in extreme detail yet. I also got about the same amount of money from both Elliott and SAIS so I'm definitely leaning toward SAIS. But I understand that if you have to work full-time Elliott makes more sense, though I've heard that doing part-time work/internships while in SAIS is feasible too which I am planning to do.

[flyingjellyfish]

JFactor- if you don't mind sharing, about how much aid did you receive from SAIS?  I received almost full tuition for year 1 in Bologna, but $20k for year 2.  I'm weighing whether I should take on the remaining year 2 tuition plus living expenses- around $50-$60k in debt.  I'm really interested in the program, but obviously wary about the overall cost!

[JFactor]

flyingjellyfish-sure, no problem, I don't see the harm in revealing these things (it's not like people can identify me and even if they could, I wouldn't really care) and that's why my signature has all the info. I got $20k for the first year in Bologna and only $10k for the second year in DC, so it seems like you got a financial package a step above mine. Congrats, that's a great offer!

 

That being said, I still completely share your worry about the cost. I'm gonna get about $20k in other sources for the two years but still the debt is going to be a little bit above yours. However, I know that I need the MA, I know what I want to study and that SAIS is excellent for that, and I have really no other options to be honest (getting a full-time job with just a BA is very difficult in my circumstances - I need someone to sponsor me a visa in the US and in the EU where I'm from, just a BA is basically worthless). It looks more and more that I'm going to make my decision between SAIS and SIPA (if I get in).

[flyingjellyfish]

JFactor- thanks so much for sharing!  I'm an immigrant to the US (from the EU actually and finally got my US citizenship about a year and a half ago) so I completely sympathize with visa and immigration issues.  Best of luck with your decision!

[JFactor]

Thanks and good luck to you as well! Perhaps our paths will cross next year in Bologna.