lbjane

Here's a post that I wrote on a similar thread about this time last year: I tend to bang this drum quite a bit here, but I personally think that it's not wise to take out a lot of debt for an MA/IR, MPP, or MPA because the salaries in those jobs aren't that high and the rankings don't matter nearly as much as they might for an MBA or JD, for example. A big part of my decision to attend LBJ was financial. I was accepted to a couple of DC schools, but with little financial aid. Between the higher tuition and higher cost of living in DC, I was looking at about $80,000 more over two years to go to school in DC. As much as I wanted to go to school in DC, I knew that I wanted to go in to government or NGO work and I just couldn't bring myself to spend $80k more to be in DC. On the other hand, between financial aid, working, my savings, and the lower cost of living in Austin, I graduated from LBJ debt-free which was a great feeling to have when I graduated since it meant that I had more options and didn't have to take the highest paying or first job that came along. If you're interested in working for the federal government, where you go to school will have very little effect on your starting salary. The salary determination process is more or less an equation of education + work experience = GS level X, step Y. The brand name of a school might make a difference in opening doors at NGOs and make a small salary difference, but probably not a big enough difference to offset much extra debt since salaries are generally lower in the NGO/non-profit sector. If you've got your heart set on consulting, then the extra debt to attend a more prestigious program might be worth it, but if you change your mind partway through the program you could be stuck with consulting anyway to pay off the debt. If you come in to the masters as a mid-career student with a lot of work experience though, you could have a higher salary after graduation, so a larger debt payment might not be as big of a problem. After graduation, I started working with the federal government at a little over 55K in DC, which is more or less average for someone with a master's and a couple of years of work experience. After taxes, social security, etc, I was left with a little less than 40k/year to live on. That's manageable in DC especially since I'm single, but if I had a large student loan payment like the $600-$900/mo payments you can incur if you take out $60K-$80K of loans or had a family, it would be really tough to live in the DC area on that. My salary has gone up in the almost 6 years since I graduated, but it would still be tough if I had a huge loan payment every month. Without debt, I'm able to live comfortably, though not lavishly, save for future needs, and put away some money towards a down payment on a condo/house later on. Also, being in DC can give you a leg up in networking, especially for the private sector and NGOs, but all of the big policy schools will have a decent alumni network in DC and the big employers of MPP/MPA/IR grads will hit the big policy schools. We had recruiters at LBJ from a lot of government agencies, several consulting firms, and many different international and DC-based NGO/Non-profits. People in my graduating class went on to work at any number of federal agencies, UN orgs, think tanks, get PhDs, etc. and going to school outside of DC didn't really seem to hold anyone back. So, while I was initially a little apprehensive about going to school outside of DC, I don't really think it hurt me in the long run. I got 2 great federal internships and then was eventually hired by one of them. Now, I'm in DC and have been able to take advantage of the LBJ alumni network here and build my own network through my current job and living in DC. As an example, 100k in loans with a 10-year repayment at 6.8% interest equals a $1,150/mo payment and, with the interest you actually end up paying $138k. That's a house in some parts of the country and at least a decent chunk of a condo in a place like DC. The opportunity cost is higher because if you invested that $1,150/mo in a fund with a 10% annual return, you'd have $237k after 10 years. Even if your investment only hit 5% a year, you'd still end up with $179k in the bank after 10 years. So, not only are you paying $138k, you're not saving or investing that same money, so you're losing out on interest and investment gains. It's ultimately a personal decision, since everyone has a different tolerance for debt and the decision certainly shouldn't ONLY be about debt, but I generally don't think that a lot of debt is advisable or necessary for most MPP/MPA/IR grads since salaries are not usually that high. I also think that the name of the school, while not irrelevant, is not as important in the public sector and NGO/Non-profit sector as it is in the private sector. So, paying big bucks for a name brand is not as important as it might be for law schools or MBA programs. For example, a person that I met at an admitted student day for LBJ when I was trying to decide where to go ultimately turned down LBJ to go to HKS. We now work for the same employer, doing the same job with the same promotion potential, and my salary's actually a bit higher because I had a little more work experience before being hired. He has a ton of debt that he's trying to manage, but I don't.

I wouldn't worry too much about a gap of a few months prior to graduate studies, at least as far as admissions or future jobs are concerned. I left my pre-LBJ job about nine months prior to starting grad school because I was absolutely miserable in it and the gap never came up in an interview. If it had, I could have explained that I took a couple of econ pre-req classes and did some traveling, which would be a reasonable thing to do before starting grad school, but it never did. So, I wouldn't worry about it sending a red flag to admissions or to post-grad school employers.

Will you have undergraduate debt? How do you plan to finance your graduate studies? Do you have experience earning money, having taxes/social security taken out, and living off of what's left over? If not, you should spend some quality time with someone who has and/or an online budgeting tool to get a good picture of how loan payments can affect your standard of living after graduation. The career options your list are not especially high-paying. For example, if you start out as a federal employee with a masters degree and no real full-time work experience you'll be making about 55k/year. After taxes and social security, you'll be left with somewhere around 40k/year. If you want to live in Washington or another expensive city, it'll be manageable on 40k/year, but that'll be a lot more difficult if you're paying $600-900/mo in loan payments like you'd have to if you take out $60K-$80K in loans. Also, even if you think that's manageable, consider that 100k in loans with a 10-year repayment at 6.8% interest equals a $1,150/mo payment and, with the interest you actually end up paying $138k. That's a house in some parts of the country and at least a decent chunk of a condo in a place like DC. The opportunity cost is higher because if you invested that $1,150/mo in a fund with a 10% annual return, you'd have $237k after 10 years. Even if your investment only hit 5% a year, you'd still end up with $179k in the bank after 10 years. So, not only are you paying $138k, you're not saving or investing that same money, so you're losing out on interest and investment gains. You've got impressive stats, and it wouldn't surprise me if you get in to some great programs. However, your lack of professional experience will also hurt your competitiveness for funding. So, you might consider casting a wider net when you apply to increase your chances of getting funding somewhere, so you don't start your professional career under a mountain of debt. Certainly apply to top-tier programs, but maybe check out the next rung down, too. Getting a full ride at a top 10-20 school could open up more doors than a top 10 education with crippling debt that limits your options since you have massive loan payments.

I knew a few folks at LBJ who had low GPAs, though I don't remember the specifics and whether they were quite as low as yours. However, in the cases that I knew about (I only knew about people who talked about it, so obviously I didn't know each classmate's undergrad GPA), they all had significant work experience in the mean time that had made up for it. By significant, i mean that they were at least in their mid-30s and had done things like serve in the military with combat deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan, start their own non-profit, etc. Unless your work experience has been especially awesome or there are some good mitigating factors to your undergrad GPA, you'll have a tough time getting in a lot of places. However, as others have said, acing the GRE, writing an especially relevant SOP, etc. could help. Doing a graduate certificate and getting outstanding grades might help demonstrate your ability to do graduate coursework, but I think it'd depend on the certificate. Some are real cash-cows with little substance, and probably won't help your application much. I honestly don't know about the Penn State one. That said, if you're truly set on an MPP/MPA/MAIR, go ahead and apply. You never know where your story and career goals might speak to an admissions committee. However, I'd cast a wide net when you apply. Go ahead an apply to your dream schools, but take a good look at lesser ranked programs that may be a good fit for what you want to do. If you cast a wider net, there's a better chance that you'll get in somewhere and maybe even get funding.

You might be able to overcome some of the geography concerns with a summer internship between your first and second year. If you do an education internship in California that summer, that could help you get your foot in the door in California.

I may be biased because I *didn't* go to SAIS (or HKS, MSFS, etc. for that matter) and turned out ok, but I realllly don't think the name brand makes that much of a difference in terms of salary in the public sector and it boggles my mind that people take out so much debt for MA/IR, MPP, and MPA degrees. But, I respect that it's a personals decision and if someone else wants to go in to massive debt instead of saving, that's their choice. For federal jobs, where you went to school makes exactly zero difference since the salary determinations are formulaic, for the most part. You might get a salary bump in the NGO or private sector, but it's probably not that much, and certainly not enough to offset a massive loan payment. Some of my LBJ classmates went in to consulting and for the big firms, I suspect that their starting salaries are fairly formulaic as well. One could argue that graduates of prestigious programs get promoted faster, but at least for federal jobs, that hasn't been my experience. It's also hard to know whether potential higher starting salaries (or faster promotions) are a result of a particular program or a particular student. If SAIS is higher ranked and more prestigious, and attracts smarter/better qualified students, how much of the gain is because of the SAIS name and how much is because the student is smarter/has better work experience/etc.?

So, I tend to bang this drum quite a bit here, but I personally think that it's not wise to take out a lot of debt for an MA/IR, MPP, or MPA because the salaries in those jobs aren't that high and the rankings don't matter nearly as much as they might for an MBA or JD, for example. A big part of my decision to attend LBJ was financial. I was accepted to a couple of DC schools, but with little financial aid. Between the higher tuition and higher cost of living in DC, I was looking at about $80,000 more over two years to go to school in DC. As much as I wanted to go to school in DC, I knew that I wanted to go in to government or NGO work and I just couldn't bring myself to spend $80k more to be in DC. On the other hand, between financial aid, working, my savings, and the lower cost of living in Austin, I graduated from LBJ debt-free which was a great feeling to have when I graduated since it meant that I had more options and didn't have to take the highest paying or first job that came along. If you're interested in working for the federal government, where you go to school will have very little effect on your starting salary. The salary determination process is more or less an equation of education + work experience = GS level X, step Y. The brand name of a school might make a difference in opening doors at NGOs and make a small salary difference, but probably not a big enough difference to offset much extra debt since salaries are generally lower in the NGO/non-profit sector. If you've got your heart set on consulting, then the extra debt to attend a more prestigious program might be worth it, but if you change your mind partway through the program you could be stuck with consulting anyway to pay off the debt. If you come in to the masters as a mid-career student with a lot of work experience though, you could have a higher salary after graduation, so a larger debt payment might not be as big of a problem. After graduation, I started working with the federal government at a little over 55K in DC, which is more or less average for someone with a master's and a couple of years of work experience. After taxes, social security, etc, I was left with a little less than 40k/year to live on. That's manageable in DC especially since I'm single, but if I had a large student loan payment like the $600-$900/mo payments you can incur if you take out $60K-$80K of loans or had a family, it would be really tough to live in the DC area on that. My salary has gone up a bit in the almost 5 years since I graduated, but it would still be tough if I had a huge loan payment every month. Without debt, I'm able to live comfortably, though not lavishly, save for future needs, and put away some money towards a down payment on a condo/house later on. Also, being in DC can give you a leg up in networking, especially for the private sector and NGOs, but all of the big policy schools will have a decent alumni network in DC and the big employers of MPP/MPA/IR grads will hit the big policy schools. We had recruiters at LBJ from a lot of government agencies, several consulting firms, and many different international and DC-based NGO/Non-profits. People in my graduating class went on to work at any number of federal agencies, UN orgs, think tanks, get PhDs, etc. and going to school outside of DC didn't really seem to hold anyone back. So, while I was initially a little apprehensive about going to school outside of DC, I don't really think it hurt me in the long run. I got 2 great federal internships and then was eventually hired by one of them. Now, I'm in DC and have been able to take advantage of the LBJ alumni network here and build my own network through my current job and living in DC. I'm not sure how much debt you'd be looking at, but 100k in loans with a 10-year repayment at 6.8% interest equals a $1,150/mo payment and, with the interest you actually end up paying $138k. That's a house in some parts of the country and at least a decent chunk of a condo in a place like DC. The opportunity cost is higher because if you invested that $1,150/mo in a fund with a 10% annual return, you'd have $237k after 10 years. Even if your investment only hit 5% a year, you'd still end up with $179k in the bank after 10 years. So, not only are you paying $138k, you're not saving or investing that same money, so you're losing out on interest and investment gains. It's ultimately a personal decision, since everyone has a different tolerance for debt, but I generally don't think that a lot of debt is advisable or necessary for most MPP/MPA/IR grads since salaries are not usually that high. I also think that the name of the school, while not irrelevant, is not as important in the public and NGO/Non-profit sector as it is in the private sector. So, paying big bucks for a name brand is not as important as it might be for law schools or MBA programs. For example, a person that I met at an admitted student day for LBJ when I was trying to decide where to go ultimately turned down LBJ to go to HKS. We now work for the same employer, doing the same job with the same promotion potential, and my salary's actually a bit higher because I had a little more work experience before being hired. He has a ton of debt that he's trying to manage, but I don't. I also think that, if you don't have a good match between program fit and financial aid, it is worth taking another year to work on your application package and/or research other schools. If you got in to top ranked program X with no funding, chances are good you'll get in there again or at least in to a similar program if you apply later. In the mean time, you can do things to improve your application package like trying to boost your GRE, improve your resume, improve your statements of purpose, etc. I would also strongly consider casting a wider net when you apply to schools the second time around because maybe you can get in to slightly lower ranked school Y with decent funding and have similar career prospects after graduation.

I'm not one to put too terribly much weight in the name of a school, but a quick look at the websites for both programs makes it seem like they're very different programs. The UW program seems very applied whereas the ISU program seems more academically focused, though with an option for an applied track. So, I think you probably need to take a close look at both programs and see if they're both a good fit. Maybe they are, but maybe one or the other is a better fit in terms of the program. So, see if you can get some info from both programs about what their grads go on to do and/or see if you can talk with some alums from both programs. If both programs place people in positions that sound interesting to you, great, but if not, that might help you figure out which one is a better fit. If the ISU program isn't a good fit, then it's probably not a good deal, even if it's free. Also, do you know yet whether you've gotten any financial aid from UW? The sticker price does seem higher w/o the Americorps benefit at ISU, but maybe UW will offer you some aid. I wouldn't get too close to making a decision until you know more about the full financial picture for both places.

I'd stay pretty close to the limit. I never served on an admissions committee but I have hired interns, many of whom are MPP or MAIR students, who had to submit a statement of interest that has a word limit. When you review tons of apps, it's pretty clear who's gone way over and it generally did not help their case. The longer SOIs generally just seemed wordy and more often than not the extra content didn't really tell us much that we couldn't already tell from the first few paragraphs. Our application process now actually limits the number of characters in the SOI and forcing people to stay within the limit has actually improved the SOIs overall because people are more judicious about what they include and how they phrase it.

No, I don't really think that it's necessarily to go to a school in DC if you want a civil service or foreign service job. Most government departments' hiring processes don't really favor DC applicants over non-DC applicants. Internships do help, but plenty of people go to DC for a summer or semester to intern or work and make connections that way. I interned in DC for my eventual federal employer between my first and second year at LBJ, for example. My understanding of the Foreign Service hiring process is that it's mostly exam based and the FSOs I've bumped in to have come from a variety of schools, including a couple I know from LBJ. Being in DC for networking purposes could be a bit more of a help if you're interested in the non-profit sector, private sector, the Hill etc. but you could still do an internship in that field during the summer. CalSeeker is right that federal hiring is down these days, but who knows what the budget will be like in 2-3 years when you graduate. I was lucky that I was in the pipeline for my job before federal hiring slowed and the economy tanked, but who knows what will happen in the next couple of years. If you're interested in the Foreign Service, check out the Pickering and Rangel fellowships. For civil service, check out the Pathways internship programs at the various departments/agencies you're interested in, since those allow you to be converted to a full-time civil service employee after you graduate, without having to compete against external applicants (essentially you're an internal hire, which they can still do even under hiring freezes, usually). I knew a couple of people who did SCEP (the Pathways program predecessor) and alternated semesters of grad school with working. It helps you save money and get a job after graduation, so what's not to like?

I it was wise to take a look at how people who are doing what you want to do got where they are. I'd also suggest that you turn that around a bit and see what people at the various grad programs you're considering go on to do after graduation and if that fits with what you want to do, especially since you're focused on getting right in to the mix of things after graduation. If you really want to work on the Hill and grad program X rarely has any of its alumni working there right after graduation, then maybe that program's not the best fit for you and your goals, for example. If you're interested in the more political side of things, doing campaign work for a candidate you believe in can also be a way to get on the radar of a political party. I don't know as much about that route, but you could probably find some examples of campaign staff that have gone on to work for the members of congress, President, etc they helped get elected. I'll also point out that there are any number of ways to get from point A to point B, as you've identified in your first post, and sometimes circumstance dictates what happens. For example, the Dean of the LBJ School when I was there (now Dean at the Maxwell School) started out focusing on domestic policy and was an assistant at the Department of Justice initially. He happened to be in the office on Sunday, November 4, 1979 when the Iran Hostage Crisis started, took a phone call meant for his boss, ended up working on the Iran Hostage Crisis responses, and ultimately decided to focus on foreign policy instead of domestic policy. He went on to hold several positions at State, the White House, universities, and think tanks, including Deputy National Security Advisor, Deputy Secretary of State, etc. So, sometimes it's chance that takes us where we go.

Well, how likely is it that the person's income will stay at $60k for the next 25 years? Possible, but not super likely. For example, if you're working in government, you're probably incompetent (truly) if you're still making $60k 25 years after finishing a masters degree. Your payments on 140k with 6.8% interest are $541/mo according to the Federal Student Aid site. If your income goes up to 100k, which is very likely over the course of 25 years, your payment goes up to $1,040/mo. You're also prolonging the payments from 10 years to 25 years and accruing a lot more interest, which you may well be responsible for paying, depending on what happens with your income. Also, you're not saving and/or investing those loan payments. Even if you did stay at $60k for the next 25 years, you'd be paying $541/mo on a 140k loan payment. If you invested that same $541/mo in an investment with an average 10% rate of return for 25 years, you'd have $723k. Even if the average rate of return is 5%, you'd have $323k after 25 years. So, not only are you paying at least $162k in loans and interest, but you're missing out on the chance to put that money to work for you. Is the HKS degree really going to be worth that much more than the MIT degree?

Just out of curiosity, how in the heck do you think you're going to be able to afford doing development work with $140k in loans? 140k in loans at 6.8% for 10 years is $1600/mo, or $193k total. Unless you plan on winning the lottery or are independently wealthy, that's not going to be feasible in any sort of development job.

Take the money. 100k in loans with a 10-year repayment at 6.8% interest equals a $1,150/mo payment and, with the interest you actually end up paying $138k. That's a house in some parts of the country and at least a decent chunk of a condo in DC. The opportunity cost is higher because if you invested that $1,150/mo in an fund with a 10% annual return, you'd have $237k after 10 years. Even if your investment only hit 5% a year, you'd still end up with $179k in the bank after 10 years. So, not only are you paying $138k, you're not saving or investing that same money, so you're losing out on interest and investment gains. I graduated with no debt from LBJ and have no regrets. I got a good job and, unlike people saddled with big loan payments, I'm saving and investing that money that would otherwise go to loan payments. It means that I paid cash for my car last year and have a down payment ready when I find a condo I want to buy. I love my job now, but if that changes, I can take another job that pays less or go without working for awhile because I don't have a $1,150/mo payment hanging over my head and have a nice cushion saved should I need it. My coworkers with massive loans from grad school don't have that freedom or that nest egg. A program's reputation is not irrelevant, but it's nowhere near as relevant in the public sector as some people think and certainly not worth $1,150/mo for ten years.

Sorry, haven't been checking in as much. I'm not sure what changed, but I recall the stats when I was at LBJ as being more along the line of 40% staying in TX, 40% going to DC and 20% everywhere else. Maybe reporting has changed, maybe there was some sort of shift in the student body, maybe there was a disturbance in the matrix, who knows. People from my graduating class and the ones right around mine went to work at the following non-Texas employers: Dept of the Navy, Dept of Transportation, NRC, CRS, State, CIA, Brookings, CSIS, Deloitte, Bearingpoint, State of California, some non-profit in LA that I'm blanking on the name of right now, FERC, DOD, NSA, OMB, HHS, IBM Ireland, a few universities and more places that I can't remember off the top of my head. I honestly don't remember percentagewise how many didn't stay in Texas, but my sense was that anyone who wanted out of Texas got out without too much trouble. Though, now that we're out a few years a few have migrated back to Austin. You might shoot an e-mail to Lana in the career office. She'll have the latest info and can talk to you about which agencies regularly recruit at LBJ, what people have gone on to do, etc. For those who do stay in Texas, most tend to stay in Austin in state or local government, but others go to other cities, especially Houston and Dallas/Fort Worth. Outside of Austin, most LBJ alums work in federal government (some agencies have offices in Dallas and Houston especially) or local government.