Yellow#5 Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 I've seen alot of comments on the boards about schools that are less apt to take you if you already have an MA. Penn State and U Chicago seem to be two such programs. Which other programs, specifically, are less apt to take you?
ILikeCatsALot45 Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 From what I've heard, albeit from a professor at BU where I went undergrad (and yes, joey, BU is pretty steadfast about it), it's substantially more difficult to get into a PhD internally or externally at most universities if you already have an MA. The reasoning I've been given for applying externally is that most PhD programs aren't formulated to absorb people half-way through--they're constructed a certain way, so it's easier to either take someone who doesn't have to try to have credits transferred or take someone who will have to do some back-work and will accordingly take longer and require more funding. PhD programs' required or "core" classes can also be vastly different from one another, and the program would prefer that you'd taken their own core requirements. Third, I guess it's harder because the professors don't know you, so even though you have an MA, you're basically at the same level of competition as everyone else who doesn't have an MA. As far as applying internally, they usually don't like to take their own MA students for the same reason most universities don't take their own BA students for grad--because they want fresh blood, it's how they build their demographics, reputations, etc. Even if they are neutral about taking their own MA students, it's harder because you still have to compete against the million-strong pool of highly qualified BAs; for instance, you may not have been accepted to a PhD program right away, but there are plenty of BAs who are ready for the PhD right off, making them, I guess, more qualified, or a better bet, or whatever. I'm not saying that any of that makes any sense, it's just what I've been told. I'm also not saying it's impossible, since I'm sure there are schools that will gladly accept their own MAs, or MAs who have blown people away in an external prestigious program. I guess if you do an MA first, you just have to work that much harder to prove yourself.
lotf629 Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 FWIW, UVA let me in this year with an MTS (basically an MA in Religion). My guess is that schools have different perceptions of a) MAs in your actual field and MAs in related but different fields. For many subfields, choice is probably a very good option, if you do in fact have an interdisciplinary interest that makes sense as part of your app, and if you can find a program in that interest that will allow you to take elective credits in lit courses.
greekdaph Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 Yale is another program that doesn't seem too keen on taking people with MAs. On the other hand, though, NYU seems to take many MAs (though not necessarily people from their own MA program, who are treated the same as external candidates when applying for the PhD).
Comfect Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 I'm not sure about Chicago - I don't know the ratios of degrees in the applicant pool, but there were a significant fraction of MA-in-hand students in the admitted pool this year.
lyonessrampant Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 I also knew a lot of UChicago Ph.D. students who already had MA degrees. True, UC doesn't usually take more than 1 or 2 people from their own MA program (this includes philosophy, english, and other humanities), but I don't think they're anti-MA. I've also seen a few programs that require an MA (UIUC) or commit to the MA if admitted at that school before moving into the Ph.D. I think a lot of it has to do with where you get your MA or BA from. If you're from a small school that is relatively unknown for your BA, you may need to go to a prestigious MA program to sharpen your writing, make contacts, and demonstrate ability to do graduate level work. Duke, for example, includes quite a few of these reasons in their FAQs section about why to do an MA. I don't recall their admitted profiles, but they definitely seem pro-MA. Bottomline, I guess, is that if you can't get in to where you want to go with just a BA, then you may have to do an MA to be more competitive with the BA people coming from schools with big reps that can carry a lot of weight.
joeygiraldo Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 Bottomline, I guess, is that if you can't get in to where you want to go with just a BA, then you may have to do an MA to be more competitive with the BA people coming from schools with big reps that can carry a lot of weight. Which is why the best advice anyone can give a prospective grad student (with only a B.A.) is to apply to a combination of Ph.D. *AND* M.A. programs.
lyonessrampant Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 Very good point. I wish I'd done that rather than just applying to all Ph.D. programs, finding myself with one Ph.D. offer I turned down, and then only the MA offer when my app was referred from the Ph.D. to the MA process. It seems there are lots of good MA programs out there, so applying to both MA and Ph.D. makes a lot of sense.
theorygrrl Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 Some programs seem to want young, virgin minds, untainted by an MA from somewhere else. . . . I'm talking to you, Iowa.
engguy Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 this strikes me as one of those unprovable "facts" people tell themselves to explain why they didn't get into this or that program. sorry, but having an MA is not going to make you LESS competitive. other myths that tend to crop up this time of year: being "too old" will be held against you; being "too young" is a handicap; having a partner will hold you back; etc. etc.
peppermint.beatnik Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 ILikeCatsaLot . . . is it the entire GSAS at BU that isn't particularly fond of people with an MA, or just the English dept?
ILikeCatsALot45 Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 I couldn't say, since I don't know that much about their others programs. Sorry.
Yellow#5 Posted March 17, 2009 Author Posted March 17, 2009 this strikes me as one of those unprovable "facts" people tell themselves to explain why they didn't get into this or that program. sorry, but having an MA is not going to make you LESS competitive. quote] engguy, I was starting to think the same thing.
teaganc Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 this strikes me as one of those unprovable "facts" people tell themselves to explain why they didn't get into this or that program. sorry, but having an MA is not going to make you LESS competitive. other myths that tend to crop up this time of year: being "too old" will be held against you; being "too young" is a handicap; having a partner will hold you back; etc. etc. This might be true for some programs, but what about the programs that say, "we will admit no more than 3 people (in an incoming class of 10) who have an MA"? UMass does this, UC Davis Cultural Studies does this, and not secretly either. And I heard about this "myth" from some of my MA professors, who suggested I not apply to programs like Penn State because I would be less competitive with an MA. Yes, it's counter-intuitive that someone with more training could be less competitive, but maybe programs don't want the headache of accepting transfer credits or having some students take their "core" courses on a MA/PhD schedule, but having to accommodate students who already have an MA being on a different schedule. Or maybe they don't want to give someone with an outside MA credit for it within their course, and don't think students who have already earned an MA will want to earn another one on the way to a PhD, if the program is set up that way. Or maybe, they just want to form their own scholars, and find people with an outside MA to be "tainted" by the other institution. I don't know. Things like age or having a partner seem more like myths, because they really wouldn't affect the program at all if they accepted you, but having an MA isn't like that.
booksareneat Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 I don't know, but I can attest to the "fact" that I didn't get into Iowa because I'm too sexy. It's just a fact. GRE scores are nothing, sometimes, you just got too much going on that they can't even begin to theorize about it.
engguy Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 This might be true for some programs, but what about the programs that say, "we will admit no more than 3 people (in an incoming class of 10) who have an MA"? UMass does this, UC Davis Cultural Studies does this, and not secretly either. And I heard about this "myth" from some of my MA professors, who suggested I not apply to programs like Penn State because I would be less competitive with an MA. OK, fair enough... If the program states outright that they don't take many people with MAs, obviously you should take that seriously. Likewise, there are programs that state outright that they don't tend to take people from their own MA program, which makes more sense. However, unless the MA profs have some indisputable inside knowledge of the adcom process at this or that school, i'd take it with a grain of salt. I've just seen a) too many people I know personally with MAs / MFAs get into top programs with no problem (including Iowa, which is supposedly one of those schools); seriously bad advice thrown around on this forum that supposedly comes from professors -- like mentioning names of faculty on your SOP is "name-dropping" and should be avoided, etc. --; c) some heavy-duty rationalizing from people who didn't get in. Bottom line is, if you have a strong enough app., all these issues tend to fall by the wayside.
wheel_of_fire Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 I don't know how true this is, at least about U of C. There was in fact a student admitted who already had a PhD, in addition to a handful others with MAs.
Yellow#5 Posted March 17, 2009 Author Posted March 17, 2009 Well, it's all been a good discussion, but I think the answer is this: I'm going to make a list of every PhD program I may ever conceivably want to apply to and drop them an email asking about how they feel about applicants with MAs vs. students with only a B.A. The speculation has been very useful, however. It raises concerns I didn't even know I should be worried about, but I think the best way to judge is to ask my individual programs of interest.
booksareneat Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 I think getting an MA also has immense value for your application because it gives you a chance to really become a solid scholar, rather than a bright kid who likes books. It lets you work on an even better SOP and WS, plus you can get better recommendations. Some people have those things already, but most coming out of undergrad can use a lot of fine tuning. I'm finishing my MA and where I went 0-20 on PhD applications before, I am on 4 waitlists now (mostly because my application is 100x better than it was when I was a year or two out of undergrad). Now all I need is another MA and I'll get admitted first round!
omgninjas Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 I think getting an MA also has immense value for your application because it gives you a chance to really become a solid scholar, rather than a bright kid who likes books. It lets you work on an even better SOP and WS, plus you can get better recommendations. Some people have those things already, but most coming out of undergrad can use a lot of fine tuning. In this light it kind of makes sense that schools might favor strong students coming out of undergrad over strong students coming out of the MA, since they might tend to be ahead of the curve. Another thing with the MA is the funding issue...some programs, not all, but some really rely on MAs as cash cows to fund their PhDs. I've spoken to two DGS' now who have kind of expressed distaste for this system and the way it influences the education of the MA only students, who are kind of shunted off to the side. This doesn't apply to all programs, of course, but there are a few which are notorious in this regard.
Jcar Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 Some programs seem to want young, virgin minds, untainted by an MA from somewhere else. . . . I'm talking to you, Iowa. Iowa admits lots of people who already have MAs. If you look at their current list of grad students about half have MAs from other schools.
plasticastle Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 Another thing with the MA is the funding issue...some programs, not all, but some really rely on MAs as cash cows to fund their PhDs. I've spoken to two DGS' now who have kind of expressed distaste for this system and the way it influences the education of the MA only students, who are kind of shunted off to the side. This doesn't apply to all programs, of course, but there are a few which are notorious in this regard. Out of curiosity, is NYU one of these programs?
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