Univ. of Cambridge versus CUNY

[Katzenmusik]

In your shoes, I'd accept Cambridge hands-down.  It's a funded offer at a university with a world-wide reputation for excellence.  Certainly there are some things that CUNY could offer (teaching experience, coursework, academic networking within the US), but my sense is that a Cambridge degree will open more doors, and you won't be bogged down with an overload of TA responsibilities (which CUNY has a reputation for) as you focus on your research.

 

As others have said, you can do a post-doc in the US if you want to get acquainted with our system.

 

Edited to add: If you're going to back out on CUNY, it would be good to let them know as soon as possible so they can fill your space with a wait-lister.  Usually it's considered bad form to turn down an offer you've already accepted... but if you give them a chance to put another person in the spot before April 15, hopefully it won't be as much of a problem.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Katzenmusik

[jogatoronto]

It is true that in the UK a letter of recommendation is supposed to bluntly state the students skills/lack of skills BUT British Academics know how to write letters for American schools.  I mean...they see American style letters yearly (when they are assessing applications for admission/jobs.) 

[Roverman33]

Hello all,

 

I've been lurking on this site for awhile now but after reading this thread, felt compelled to offer some of my insights. 

 

I agree with much of what has been said here with regard to both the pros and cons of the situation. As someone who recently completed an M.Phil in History (3 yrs ago) however, I would like to offer some of my insight. As an American student studying in the UK, I was very disappointed with Cambridge on the whole. While it has an incredibly prestigious reputation, I found the history program quite lacking. My supervisor (who was British) was very friendly but offered little to no guidance on my thesis topic. It was up to me to determine my topic and identify most of my research material. I received very broad feedback on drafts that was of little to no use. When meeting with other faculty, they often pushed my thesis in entirely different directions which made it difficult to determine which strands to tease out. While graduate work by definition involves more independent research, I found that still received almost no guidance or "supervision" and this was immensely frustrating. The graduate classes that I did attend were on enormous topics with endless reading lists which meant that in the end, no one had read the same sources and a productive discussion was impossible; classes became mere forums for people showing off what they already knew. I do not know about undergraduate classes however.

 

I would be concerned that if you do not have a well defined thesis topic from the start, you will be prompted to find one quickly and there will be very little time for exploration.

 

I am sorry if this sounds too negative and it is true that my experience is just that of one person and you might very well find a wonderful and nurturing supervisor. However, I did know several other M.Phil students who were in a very similar position and I would just want all who read this forum (now and in future) to be aware of these issues.

[kaputzing]

I was also discouraged from applying to UK programs, since they are purportedly not as rigorous for my field; while they churn out many PhDs due to the shorter time frame, I've been told that they also churn out many horrible dissertations for the same reasons, which may hurt someone on the job market. (Note: I can't say whether or not this is true! I was told this by scholars who got their degrees both in the US and in Germany, and I was encouraged to focus on US applications and to think about the UK options later if my options in the US were not good enough.)

But my field requires a solid basis in language work, and my languages are not to the level that I'd feel comfortable having my supervisor showing me to the library and then saying, "See you in three years!"

 

... yes, that might be a good way to look at it. OP, how would you feel if you were just dropped off at the library and told to hand in your dissertation in three years? If you're confident, go. If not, then I'd recommend against it. You may be able to still study at Cambridge for a time even while attending CUNY depending on where your research takes you.

[Carthage32]

I feel that we've given OP probably more advice than she was looking for! But, since this thread might be useful for future applicants as well, I'll add a few more thoughts.

 

I feel it's important not to overstate the "independence" aspect of UK PhDs. Yes, there is less structure than in US programs, but it's not as if you're completely on your own for three years. In fact, think of it as the three years you might do at any US school post-Comps. It might look something like this:

 

Year 1: on campus - work with advisor to develop proposal, identify archives, take a course or two, work on languages, etc.

Year 2: field work

Year 3: writing - back on campus or elsewhere.

 

How much contact you have with your advisor depends on the person. Some may be more hands-off than others, but you certainly can't generalize.

[heulwen]

Yeah - so, I've written to my contact person at CUNY about the issue. In reply to my rather long e-mail telling about the Cambridge offer and the confusion it led me to, I received a short reply like this: "OK we understand your situation, respect your decision, good luck." This is funny because I never told this person that I made my mind and decided to accept the Cambridge's offer. Well, I guess that's it then. Cambridge it's gonna be.

 

Two lessons I learned from this:

 

#1: Never EVER share these things with the people who are part of the program you intend to go BEFORE you give your final decision. No matter how political you think you express things, it somehow gives the impression that you've already made your mind and you're trying to "pave the way" for telling it.

 

#2: People who disappoint you can be found everywhere. Roverman33's post had really freaked me earlier but after this frustrating correspondence with CUNY I'm thinking there was no guarantee that my supervisor in NY would be able to provide the proper "guidance" we associate with the US system. There is no sense to base your decisions on an idealized system, the individuals you encounter also matter a lot. Under the roof of a dream program you can work with a supervisor who doesn't care at all and vice versa. Judging from the correspondence I previously had with my potential Cambridge supervisor, he seems to be quite involved and interested. I reckon a leap of faith is what I'm left to do.

 

Thank you all a million times for sharing your comments and ideas!!!    I decided to post my Cambridge experiences later in this forum to give an idea to people who might find themselves in the same situation. Let's see if the "horrors" of the British system actually exist.

[heulwen]

In reply to kaputzing's question: I have a very specific topic at hand and I more or less know where to look for to gather information about it. On the other hand, I want to believe that my supervisor in Cambridge will not show me the way to the library and tell me "I'll see you in three years". This can't be the way things go in a world wide famous research institution.... I hope!

Edited April 11, 2013 by heulwen

[pudewen]

Let's see if the "horrors" of the British system actually exist.

As one of the people whose posts is probably being construed as being about the horrors of the British system, let me just clarify by saying that I don't think there's anything inherently worse about the UK system than the US one - I simply wanted to explain why, all else being equal, a British PhD results in relatively worse job prospects in the US. Given your situation, as someone who doesn't want to teach in the US, there's no reason for you to think the British system is worse than the American one. It sounds like you made the right choice for you. Congratulations on that!

[lafayette]

Congratulations on your decision! I don't know about the 'horrors' of the British system (if, like you say, they exist) but I do know the adjuncting nightmare of CUNY*, so perhaps you're replacing one bad thing with another, but I doubt it.

*"Don't apply to CUNY" said my MA advisor who works for CUNY, for this reason & other various funding issues (which is the source of relying on grad students as an adjunct army, anyway).

Edit: All of the faculty at CUNY I've encountered though were WONDERFUL; so I'm not totally dismissing CUNY, but if one has a better option, take it.

Edited April 11, 2013 by lafayette

[Roverman33]

As one of the people whose posts is probably being construed as being about the horrors of the British system, let me just clarify by saying that I don't think there's anything inherently worse about the UK system than the US one - I simply wanted to explain why, all else being equal, a British PhD results in relatively worse job prospects in the US. Given your situation, as someone who doesn't want to teach in the US, there's no reason for you to think the British system is worse than the American one. It sounds like you made the right choice for you. Congratulations on that!

I would like to second pudewen's comment. There are two sides to every discussion and I felt it was necessary to share some of the concerns over pursuing a UK PhD because it is not simply a perfect system. Obviously, every decision rests with its beholder and circumstances vary tremendously. I too think you have made the best choice for you - congratulations!

[playingivory]

#2: People who disappoint you can be found everywhere. Roverman33's post had really freaked me earlier but after this frustrating correspondence with CUNY I'm thinking there was no guarantee that my supervisor in NY would be able to provide the proper "guidance" we associate with the US system. There is no sense to base your decisions on an idealized system, the individuals you encounter also matter a lot. Under the roof of a dream program you can work with a supervisor who doesn't care at all and vice versa. Judging from the correspondence I previously had with my potential Cambridge supervisor, he seems to be quite involved and interested. I reckon a leap of faith is what I'm left to do.

 

Like others have said, I think you made the best choice for yourself. I think everything about this process involves a leap of faith to some extent...here's hoping your experience at Cambridge is wonderful. Congrats!

[CrazyCatLady80]

Congrats and best of luck!! I am sure you will do fine. One possible idea - have you thought of returning to the states during the final year or two of your dissertation? I knew someone who did this, but can't remember how he did in the job market. 

[laquerhead]

 nvm..

Edited April 11, 2013 by laquerhead

[Carthage32]

Congratulations! All the best, and if you have any questions about Cambridge (for example, on choosing a College or anything about travel or living there), feel free to message me. 

[heulwen]

As one of the people whose posts is probably being construed as being about the horrors of the British system, let me just clarify by saying that I don't think there's anything inherently worse about the UK system than the US one - I simply wanted to explain why, all else being equal, a British PhD results in relatively worse job prospects in the US. Given your situation, as someone who doesn't want to teach in the US, there's no reason for you to think the British system is worse than the American one. It sounds like you made the right choice for you. Congratulations on that!

 

I would like to second pudewen's comment. There are two sides to every discussion and I felt it was necessary to share some of the concerns over pursuing a UK PhD because it is not simply a perfect system. Obviously, every decision rests with its beholder and circumstances vary tremendously. I too think you have made the best choice for you - congratulations!

 

Hey sorry if I'm misunderstood, I was just exaggerating when I said "the horrors of the British system".. Obviously no system is inherently bad or good. The points you both made were extremely important and they have helped me to understand what sort of qualifications are expected in the US academic job market. I actually saved the posts here in case I need to review them later. I'll consider all the arguments raised as I plan my time in Cambridge (Attending courses and seeking teaching opportunities will be my priority). Thank you very much for your insight !!!

 

have you thought of returning to the states during the final year or two of your dissertation?

 

Well I don't live in the US, so.. I'm considering to apply to post-docs or fellowships in the US once I get my PhD.

 

 

Thank you all for your good luck wishes !! I've learned so many things from you during the last two years - Love you all ! (GROUP HUG)

[GuitarSlayer]

I'm sorry I'm late to the party, but I am happy you made the decision. What i was GOING to said, you just said:  Keep in mind that there is absolutely nothing keeping you from a post-grad fellowship in the UK or in the US that will net some teaching experience.

 

Congratulations again!!!

[Wicked_Problem]

Yeah - so, I've written to my contact person at CUNY about the issue. In reply to my rather long e-mail telling about the Cambridge offer and the confusion it led me to, I received a short reply like this: "OK we understand your situation, respect your decision, good luck." This is funny because I never told this person that I made my mind and decided to accept the Cambridge's offer. Well, I guess that's it then. Cambridge it's gonna be.   Two lessons I learned from this:   #1: Never EVER share these things with the people who are part of the program you intend to go BEFORE you give your final decision. No matter how political you think you express things, it somehow gives the impression that you've already made your mind and you're trying to "pave the way" for telling it.   #2: People who disappoint you can be found everywhere. Roverman33's post had really freaked me earlier but after this frustrating correspondence with CUNY I'm thinking there was no guarantee that my supervisor in NY would be able to provide the proper "guidance" we associate with the US system. There is no sense to base your decisions on an idealized system, the individuals you encounter also matter a lot. Under the roof of a dream program you can work with a supervisor who doesn't care at all and vice versa. Judging from the correspondence I previously had with my potential Cambridge supervisor, he seems to be quite involved and interested. I reckon a leap of faith is what I'm left to do.   Thank you all a million times for sharing your comments and ideas!!!    I decided to post my Cambridge experiences later in this forum to give an idea to people who might find themselves in the same situation. Let's see if the "horrors" of the British system actually exist.

I am sorry that the experience you had contacting your POI at CUNY was negative, but it was informative, as I thought it might be. I believe that you are making the right decision, and I am very pleased that you have decided to post your experiences in this thread for the benefit of others. That is awesome! I will definitely check in regularly to follow this. GOOD LUCK!

[wreckofthehope]

Congrats and best of luck!! I am sure you will do fine. One possible idea - have you thought of returning to the states during the final year or two of your dissertation? I knew someone who did this, but can't remember how he did in the job market. 

Sorry to barge in to the conversation, I was browsing the thread and was taken aback by the suggestion above. Why would you do that? (not being snarky...just can't see it working logistically, or being worth while at all - a UK degree is only three years long, so coming back while you are less than half way through...perhaps only a year in, seems a bit bonkers to me...why go at all, if you don't want to be there?)

Edited April 12, 2013 by wreckofthehope

[CrazyCatLady80]

Sorry to barge in to the conversation, I was browsing the thread and was taken aback by the suggestion above. Why would you do that? (not being snarky...just can't see it working logistically, or being worth while at all - a UK degree is only three years long, so coming back while you are less than half way through...perhaps only a year in, seems a bit bonkers to me...why go at all, if you don't want to be there?)

 

Honestly, as I mentioned before, I am an Americanist and know very little about PhD programs abroad. Someone I knew who got their PhD in the UK did this during during his last year. I don't know how he did on the job market, but I thought it might be worth the suggestion. 

[heulwen]

Hey it's completely out of topic but I accidentally gave a negative vote to Wicked_Problem's post instead of a positive one and can't take it back   Do you guys know how to? Sorry!!!

[czesc]

Fixed it for you by giving it a positive vote.

[heulwen]

Thank you!