master's before phd?

[viget]

Hi y'all,

 

I've been lurking on the gradchat forums for months but finally broke down and created an account. A little bit about me - I'm a recent graduate with about 1.5 years of real world work experience, and I applied and was accepted to a great master's program in higher education administration for this upcoming fall. When I applied for the program, I didn't feel like I was a strong enough applicant to go for doctoral programs. Over the past couple of months, however, I've had a lot of time to focus my research interests, which has made me more sure of the fact that I want to pursue a doctorate, and more uneasy about whether doing the master's program is the right choice.

 

As I see it, the benefits of doing the master's are as follows:

- more higher ed experience / knowledge

- opportunities to get recommendation letters from professors in the field (possibly important since my undergrad major wasn't education?)

- more guidance on applying to phd programs

- the amazing alumni network from the master's program

 

The most obvious downside is the cost, although there may be other negatives I'm not considering. The program is expensive, but fortunately, I wouldn't need to take out loans. I would be taking a significant chunk out of my savings, though.

 

Anyway, I'd be really grateful for any thoughts/advice/feedback from current grad students or anyone who's faced about a similar dilemma!

[Lilac13]

Welcome!

 

From what I understand, most people applying to education graduate programs don't have an undergraduate background in education and thus don't really have letters of recommendation from undergraduate professors in the field of education. I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to have strong letters from these people, but having a strong letter from someone who can speak to your academic and research skills regardless of the discipline (probably some caveats here) is what matters. What is your undergraduate major? My letters of recommendation came from professors in clinical psychology and public policy.

 

What makes you say you are a strong applicant (I am not doubting your capabilities- I am just curious)? While knowing what you want to research is definitely important for PhD applications, there are also other factors to be considered (as I am sure you know). Do you have a strong GPA? Do you have strong GRE scores? The reason I ask this is because if you don't, exemplary performance in a masters program may increase your chances of getting into a PhD program. I didn't have the most competitive undergraduate GPA, but got a 3.9 in my masters program and was told that it really helped my application.

 

You mentioned that the masters program is in Higher Ed, would you also be getting a PhD in Higher Ed? This is just my opinion, but I don't really think it makes since to pay for a masters in Higher Ed and then move on to a PhD program in Higher Ed. I say this because most PhD programs offer a masters en route to your PhD and many PhD programs offer partial to full funding. If the terminal masters program that you are referring to was paid for, I think that would make a difference in the decision.

 

I think depending on the specifics of your situation, you could go either way. Just my two cents.

Edited April 15, 2013 by EW33

[viget]

Thanks for your thoughts, EW33. I didn't mean to say that I think I'm a strong applicant; in fact, part of the reason I didn't apply to doctoral programs straightaway is that I didn't think I was a strong candidate. After talking to a current grad student, I think I might be a decent candidate, but I'm by no stretch of the imagination confident about my chances.

 

As for my stats...undergrad major was in foreign languages and literatures and my GPA was a 3.6 (with honors) from a highly ranked university. GRE scores are 166 V, 157 M, 5.5 W. I also have taken a few classes at the university I was admitted to for my master's and earned a 3.8 so far. Objectively, I think my stats are okay, but I think I've psyched myself out a bit by looking at the admit rates of some of the phd programs I'm interested in; it's left me feeling like I could use any extra boost to improve my chances.

 

Anyway, I am hoping to pursue a phd in higher ed after my master's, and the knowledge that I could get a master's for free if I did a phd is part of the reason I'm questioning whether the master's is a good idea. I did get some funding for the master's, it comes with an assistantship, and living expenses aren't an issue for me, so overall it's not prohibitively expensive. I'm feeling like the master's program's ability to make me a stronger applicant for phd programs could outweigh the cost, but I wanted some feedback from others who might have faced this choice before.

[hesadork]

Hi Viget, and welcome.  This is a terrific question IMHO, so thanks for raising it!

 

I'll cut to the chase and strongly suggest that you do a master's prior to a doctorate in this field.  Here is my rationale:

 

- Many/most of the better doctoral programs in the field require a master's prior to admission, either as a matter of policy (ie, it's a stated requirement before they'll consider an application) or practice (ie, they say they're open to considering someone with only a bachelor's degree but then rarely, if ever offer them admission)

- Accordingly, it's rare for a master's to be granted "in course" while on the way to a doctorate in HE/SA; the most common arrangement of which I'm aware is the TC model of granting an EdM once you're close to ABD...but those programs still require an MA prior to matriculation (in other words, it's highly unlikely you're going to be able to get a master's for free on your way to a funded doctorate)

- These are professional degree programs (even a PhD)...so while your UGPA and GRE's are really important to doctoral admission, your work experiences and your master's attainment matter a lot too.  For better or worse, master's degrees in HE/SA have become *so* prevalent that in many quarters they're viewed as part of your professional experience in the field, so not having one is a disadvantage in the doctoral admission process

- Related to the third point, as a "professional" doctorate (even if it's a PhD rather than an EdD), it's *really* hard to have clarity/confidence about your research interests absent having done a master's; even if you do have clarity, faculty may not find it credible absent the degree to substantiate it

- Your rec letters will have more weight coming from HE/SA scholars

 

I will say that there are other education degree programs where you could safely proceed directly to the doctorate -- sociology and ed, politics and ed, ed policy -- and each of those could accomodate an HE focus.

 

Anyway, I hope this is helpful.  Best of luck on your journey!

Edited April 16, 2013 by ADLNYC

[ay761]

This is a good question and I wish someone had asked it (or I had asked it) before I applied this season.

 

For what it's worth, I just applied to a mixture of PhD programs and masters programs (in the field of comparative education).  I am sure I want to pursue a PhD, but decided to apply to masters programs as back-up options.  I had a focused application and did well in a well-ranked undergrad institution (3.5 overall GPA, 3.8 major GPA, won various awards etc., did not major in education), good letters of rec, and have 4 years of overseas teaching experience + various volunteer experience (however your GRE scores are significantly higher than mine - I had 159 v and 149 m, 4.5 writing).  In the end, I was rejected from all the PhD programs I applied to and accepted to all the masters programs I applied to.  Furthermore, all the people I have spoken to on this forum who got into the PhD programs I was rejected from already had a masters degree (also every doctoral student I talked to in these programs had masters degrees before applying).  Then again, that could be due to chance, and my rejection could be based on something else entirely, such as the not so great GRE scores.   

 

So I am attending a masters program, and in the end have decided to go with the one that gave me the best scholarship + graduate assistantship.  In you case, since it sounds like you won't be losing much money, I would go! 

[michigan girl]

As ADLNYC stated, it is highly recommended to have already earned a master's degree in higher education before applying for a PhD/EdD in Higher Education. In most professional fields (social work, counseling, nursing, etc.), it is to your advantage to have obtained a master's degree and post-master's experience.

Edited April 16, 2013 by michigan girl

[ZeChocMoose]

I agree with ADLNYC.  It is going to be extremely difficult to get into a PhD program in higher ed without a master's degree.  The only people that I have know who have done it (3 people) had substantial research and/or professional experience.  Since you mention that you only have 1.5 years of experience (which is at the low end of experience in higher ed PhD programs in general), you are going to be at a real disadvantage without a master's AND having limited experience especially if you are applying to competitive programs.

 

The other problem that I see if you don't pursue the academic route, it is going to be difficult to find a job with your limited experience.  You'll be in this strange place where you have the PhD but you won't have the usual years of professional experience that the other job candidates will have.  This could be fine if you are willing to start back at entry level positions again - but usually people tend to look for more senior level positions when they graduate.

 

Another good point about completing a master's degree is it is a good and short(!) way to figure out if the field is right for you.  You don't mention whether you are working in higher ed currently-- but you may find out that you are not the right fit for the field. Or you may find that you don't need a PhD in higher ed because either your interests change, it is not a necessary degree in your specific subsection of higher ed, or you don't plan to pursue research/policy jobs.

 

There are also a decent amount of quality higher ed master's programs that are fully funded.  Please don't feel like you have to go into debt or take out a huge chunk of your savings.  That is honestly one of the benefits of the field - getting your master's degree paid for - which is not the norm in other fields.

[viget]

Thanks for all the insight, y'all. I'm really glad I asked this question because so many schools' websites say that you don't need a master's to apply; hearing feedback from people who've been through the process really sheds some light on the fact that, for most people, that's not great advice.

 

I'm not currently working in higher ed, but I did work in the field for a year and a half after graduation; I've just taken some time off from work for personal reasons. I think I want to go into research or policy, and while there are some entry-level opportunities for someone with just a BA, most of the positions I'm interested in require a master's and prefer a phd. That said, I understand that with limited work experience I might have to start at the bottom once I'm done school, but I'm hoping I could move up quickly once I prove myself. Also, I'll be working an assistantship while I'm doing the master's, and would hope to have a research assistantship if I do a phd, so I'll still be gaining valuable experience while in school.

 

Anyway, I'm definitely feeling better about doing the master's program! I just wanted to feel that it was a smart investment and a good way to further my goals, and it sounds like it's the right choice.

 

Thanks again, everyone!

[wildviolet]

Sorry I'm kinda late to this discussion (end of semester papers and craziness is finally over)!

 

I'm in a doctoral program at an R1. I have a Master's degree with thesis from a local state university. My opinion is very biased, but I personally think doing the Master's program (with thesis) was beneficial for the following reasons:

 

1. My undergrad degree was in science, so I never had any education courses. The courses in my Master's program helped me understand the landscape of my field (science education) and got me reading academic journal articles and books.

 

2. I sent my thesis as my writing sample for my PhD applications (thus demonstrating some competence in research and writing skills).

 

3. I got great letters of recommendation (I assume) from three faculty (two in science education and one in elementary/bilingual education) who could attest to my research potential.

 

4. I got a Departmental Grad Student Honors Award (which I totally did not know about until the hooding ceremony) that I could put on my CV.

 

5. I got a conference poster presentation on my CV (second tier, but still it was peer-reviewed).

 

6. I got advice from faculty about doctoral programs and pursuing a career in academia.

 

7. All of these things helped make me a strong candidate when I applied to PhD programs--I was accepted to 3 of the 4 schools I applied to (all top, R1 schools in education). The only school I wasn't accepted to was Stanford, which was because they accept you to work with a particular faculty member, not to the program in general. So, I interviewed with the faculty member I wanted to work with and was wait-listed (I guess his first choice accepted). I wasn't entirely crushed as I'm quite happy where I am now (my advisor is top notch, down-to-earth, and a perfect fit for my personality and professional interests).

 

Of course, good GRE scores help, too. I really studied for the first round of the revised GRE, and was in top 10% for verbal and top 20% for quantitative.

 

Oh yes, and one more benefit is that, because of all this, I received two scholarships from my current institution--one that provides extra funds for all five years, and one that paid for my RA/TA stipend in my first year (which doesn't necessarily help me, but only 2% of all graduate students receive this award, and it helps the professors I work for since they don't have to use their grant monies).

 

Anyway, good luck!

 

P.S. Some of my colleagues do not have Master's degrees, but most do. Our age range is something like 24 (taught for two years, no Master's degree I think) all the way to 40+.

Edited May 15, 2013 by wildviolet