SAIS v MSFS (GTown) 2013

[ansac111]

As we are getting closer to decision deadline, I am getting progressively more confused.   The comparison between these two good programs have been done many times across various forums, but I wonder how  they compare on  some of the softer aspects

 

1. Brand name: Even though I am not a sucker for a brand but I got this impression that SAIS has the  best  brand name in DC for IR.  My question is would I be at a disadvantage (from a brand perspective) if I choose GTown over SAIS?
    
2. Ideological bent: SAIS  had a reputation of being neocon hub , but I guess that has changed to a large extent,  especially with Valis Nasr (who is a centrist at best) as the new  dean  Also would you classify Gtown  as liberal? Conservative ? Or somewhere in the middle
    
3. Average age: on a random search I found the SAIS student body to be on a younger side and MSFS having more experienced people. Would you agree with this assessment?
    
4. Any other info which you think  sharply distinguish the two programs 

[JFactor]

I don't think the brand name of SAIS is stronger than that of Gtown. For instance, GTown is the number one school in FP's rankings (SAIS is number two, not that these rankings are any more than crude guidelines). Here on the forum SAIS seems to get a lot of love and attention, a lot more than many other great programs for some reason, but I think in terms of brand name they are very equal (and GTown could be even stronger abroad).

[MPPgal]

I think namewise in DC they are the same, but SFS has the GTown name as well which better known abroad than the JH name

[ansac111]

Thanks guys, I think my impressions of SAIS was largely formed by forums like Gradcafe. Any views on the cultural difference between the two programs?

[JFactor]

Sorry, I don't know. I think that's a very "sophisticated" issue that you raise and I think you either have to know someone really well who is currently in the program or you need to be a student there yourself, and unfortunately I don't check these boxes.

[ansac111]

Thanks. anyone with some insights to my questions above 

[soaps]

On the brand name issue, I think GTown is actually stronger overall in DC. It really depends what you mean by "IR circles," as there is no unified IR circle in DC. Within the State Dept., I think SAIS probably has the stronger reputation, but how much this means in a meritocratic agency where there is a strong cultural push against nepotism/elitism is open to question.

 

GTown has a stronger cultural component, as MSFS students will be lumped in with other GTown stereotypes (whether positive or negative). Most probably assume SAIS is in Baltimore as opposed to being a JHU outpost.

I don't think either is more highly regarded in IR NGOs. Within think tanks, for example, I don't think any IR/public policy program is highly regarded.

Edited April 25, 2013 by soaps

[dft309]

On the brand name issue, I think GTown is actually stronger overall in DC. It really depends what you mean by "IR circles," as there is no unified IR circle in DC. Within the State Dept., I think SAIS probably has the stronger reputation, but how much this means in a meritocratic agency where there is a strong cultural push against nepotism/elitism is open to question.

 

GTown has a stronger cultural component, as MSFS students will be lumped in with other GTown stereotypes (whether positive or negative). Most probably assume SAIS is in Baltimore as opposed to being a JHU outpost.

I don't think either is more highly regarded in IR NGOs. Within think tanks, for example, I don't think any IR/public policy program is highly regarded.

 

Speaking as a graduating SAISer and someone who's interned at State, on the Hill, and at think tanks (security focused), I can say that SAIS's reputation is either roughly equivalent to Georgetown's MSFS, which is Georgetown's peer program, or a bit better. Oddly enough, I was told the latter by a Georgetown grad at State (granted, it was at a holiday party and alcohol was involved). He thought the requirement for two courses beyond Trade and Monetary made a difference in terms of making SAISers consistently economically literate. 

 

It is true that "civilians' (non-IR people) are under the impression we go to school in Baltimore, but the people who count, IR people, know we're in Dupont. 

 

I honestly think the neocon thing is grossly overblown-it's not like there's some sort of ideological conformity being really forced onto you in that regard. No one's going to force you say that you think arbitrarily invading other countries is a good idea. In terms of econ, yes, the generally settled opinion is that free trade is a good thing, but that's orthodoxy across the discipline these days. 

 

To the OP: Would you be at a disadvantage? Not in any meaningful way. If I were you, I'd work backwards from where you'd like to go and figure out which of the two schools would be better at getting you there than the other, if at all. If you can't come up with any differences, then I'd look at things like which school has more courses you like than the other. There are differences between the programs, but they're really at the margins. 

 

To soaps: I disagree about the lack of utility within State. Name of school is still useful once you're in State. Sure, how you do is important, but the school you went to can help shape your narrative, especially at the beginning of your career. For example, if you perform well in your first few assignments and went to SAIS or Georgetown, you will quickly develop a reputation consistently doing well, while it may take some more time if you went to, say, American.

 

And remember, you are still competing for jobs once you get inside-it doesn't stop when you get hired. You start lobbying for jobs at least a year before you have to leave your current assignment. Sure, in terms of getting in, officially, the school doesn't matter. But where it matters is helping you get good jobs or internships that can really help you get in, either through the PMF program or as an FSO. During the PMF interview phase, my understanding is that your school is masked to your interviewers and you cannot mention your school to them. At the same time, you're really evaluated on the quality of your work experience. If you go to a good school, chances are, you will have access to higher quality jobs. 

 

The reputation of the school also really helps in terms of getting informational interviews. People are going to be willing to talk to people who have a record of success. Going to a top school does make people more willing to talk to you. 

 

In terms of reputation, this is my perception:

 

SAIS-Georgetown MSFS (Princeton WWS and Harvard KSG go here if you're including public policy schools)

Tufts MALD (just below the top two and really considered a peer school)

 

Columbia SIPA (still good, but meaningfully below Tufts)

 

 

GW Elliott (reputation meaningfully worse than the others. The real utility of coming here is the ability to intern pretty much full-time, but the reputation of the school could make it difficult to get good internships without good experience. My experience with Elliott students has not been positive.)

Denver Korbel

Maxwell MIA

American University

[ansac111]

Thanks guys for your posts !

I have a background in law and the reasons why I am tilting towards MSFS is because it affords  the opportunity to take courses at GTown Law. Also the Director of the program Anthony Clark Arend is a distinguish personality in International Law  
 

@dft 309: Your detailed response was indeed helpful and I do realize that heavy econ aspect of SAIS  makes the overall program better, perhaps even better than MSFS,  but how strong is the 'International Law' component of SAIS? I know SAIS has ILO concentration and  Prof. Wedgwood was a former professor at YLS, but I don't hear much about their law electives.

 

Overall SAIS would be considered better for career with World bank et al  and MSFS for career in Foreign Service. But which program would you consider stronger for career in lobbying/ law firms? 

[dft309]

Thanks guys for your posts !

I have a background in law and the reasons why I am tilting towards MSFS is because it affords  the opportunity to take courses at GTown Law. Also the Director of the program Anthony Clark Arend is a distinguish personality in International Law  

 

@dft 309: Your detailed response was indeed helpful and I do realize that heavy econ aspect of SAIS  makes the overall program better, perhaps even better than MSFS,  but how strong is the 'International Law' component of SAIS? I know SAIS has ILO concentration and  Prof. Wedgwood was a former professor at YLS, but I don't hear much about their law electives.

 

Overall SAIS would be considered better for career with World bank et al  and MSFS for career in Foreign Service. But which program would you consider stronger for career in lobbying/ law firms? 

 

I do disagree about the idea that the MSFS would be better for a Foreign Service career-both programs are very well respected at State and, if anything, SAIS is respected more. I noticed that while fewer SAISers per capita enter the Foreign Service (though the number is still quite large), they tend to be overrepresented at higher levels. 

 

I'd say SAIS is equally good for a career at State and the World Bank. That, and the Bank is jokingly regarded as SAIS's unemployment agency-I get e-mails about short term contracts at the World Bank, interestingly enough often times about energy and development, at least three times a week, often more. 

 

ILO has some good courses, IIRC. I'm afraid I'm going off of memory here, as the list of courses and syllabi has been wiped from the website and course registration system, probably because of some sorely needed updates. There are courses on trade law, the UN, law of war, trafficking in persons, and investment law. There's plenty I'm missing, but that's all I remember.  The concentration also participates in a moot court competition and offer a clinical course on advoacy, IIRC. 

 

What sort of lobbying or legal work do you have in mind? And can you practice in the US? 

[soaps]

Speaking as a graduating SAISer and someone who's interned at State, on the Hill, and at think tanks (security focused), I can say that SAIS's reputation is either roughly equivalent to Georgetown's MSFS, which is Georgetown's peer program, or a bit better. Oddly enough, I was told the latter by a Georgetown grad at State (granted, it was at a holiday party and alcohol was involved). He thought the requirement for two courses beyond Trade and Monetary made a difference in terms of making SAISers consistently economically literate. 

 

It is true that "civilians' (non-IR people) are under the impression we go to school in Baltimore, but the people who count, IR people, know we're in Dupont. 

 

I honestly think the neocon thing is grossly overblown-it's not like there's some sort of ideological conformity being really forced onto you in that regard. No one's going to force you say that you think arbitrarily invading other countries is a good idea. In terms of econ, yes, the generally settled opinion is that free trade is a good thing, but that's orthodoxy across the discipline these days. 

 

To the OP: Would you be at a disadvantage? Not in any meaningful way. If I were you, I'd work backwards from where you'd like to go and figure out which of the two schools would be better at getting you there than the other, if at all. If you can't come up with any differences, then I'd look at things like which school has more courses you like than the other. There are differences between the programs, but they're really at the margins. 

 

To soaps: I disagree about the lack of utility within State. Name of school is still useful once you're in State. Sure, how you do is important, but the school you went to can help shape your narrative, especially at the beginning of your career. For example, if you perform well in your first few assignments and went to SAIS or Georgetown, you will quickly develop a reputation consistently doing well, while it may take some more time if you went to, say, American.

 

And remember, you are still competing for jobs once you get inside-it doesn't stop when you get hired. You start lobbying for jobs at least a year before you have to leave your current assignment. Sure, in terms of getting in, officially, the school doesn't matter. But where it matters is helping you get good jobs or internships that can really help you get in, either through the PMF program or as an FSO. During the PMF interview phase, my understanding is that your school is masked to your interviewers and you cannot mention your school to them. At the same time, you're really evaluated on the quality of your work experience. If you go to a good school, chances are, you will have access to higher quality jobs. 

 

The reputation of the school also really helps in terms of getting informational interviews. People are going to be willing to talk to people who have a record of success. Going to a top school does make people more willing to talk to you. 

 

In terms of reputation, this is my perception:

 

SAIS-Georgetown MSFS (Princeton WWS and Harvard KSG go here if you're including public policy schools)

Tufts MALD (just below the top two and really considered a peer school)

 

Columbia SIPA (still good, but meaningfully below Tufts)

 

 

GW Elliott (reputation meaningfully worse than the others. The real utility of coming here is the ability to intern pretty much full-time, but the reputation of the school could make it difficult to get good internships without good experience. My experience with Elliott students has not been positive.)

Denver Korbel

Maxwell MIA

American University

 

  Your little personal ranking there is arbitrary and more than a bit silly (and most likely offensive to many people on these forums). SIPA meaningfully below Tufts? What on Earth are you basing this on? You just come off as a pretentious putting your school above all others and then evaluating which are its "peer" programs. It's even funnier you compare it to HKS and WWS as an afterthought. Your perception differs markedly from reality, to say the least. You may have interned at some think tank, but having worked at one in both DC and NYC, no public policy schools are respected; in fact, you're generally discouraged from going to any of them. And in the first place, if you're a grad. student interning at a think tank, you did something wrong (pro tip: those internships are meant for undergrads). SAIS has no standing above any other school except on the GradCafe forums, where (and you're a case in point) SAIS students think they're some elite squadron of IR students. It's especially interesting they think that when, outside these mysterious "IR circles," no one knows what SAIS is. You're someone who hasn't even graduated from SAIS and you have your own personal ranking of IR schools? ...really? I was just comparing the perceptions in DC, where Georgetown is undeniably better regarded overall. You might not recognize that because you are probably only in DC because you're a SAIS student or intern, which is consistent with the SAIS stereotype I became familiar with while living there (you share that with GWU and American). A common SAIS stereotype is inexperience, not "super elite IR hero." I interned with SAIS students... as an undergrad.

 

The fact that you think a couple economics courses on the margins contributes materially to how you are evaluated (or perform) at the State Department proves how ignorant you are of what an FSO really does, even for those who choose the economic cone.

And I think you're wrong about State overall. Even asking friends and former supervisors, there's a strong cultural aversion to identifying the benefit of one program over another (largely because this benefit does not exist); in fact, it matters less and less the more you advance in your career, and even less so your first two tours. When you're bidding for posts, it matters much more who you've worked with. Not to mention, most people at State have not gone to public policy programs, so you are way overemphasizing the importance of brand name within State. 

 

Are you attending SAIS straight out of undergrad or something? I wouldn't be surprised. You have the arrogance of someone who has only ever been an intern and thinks he understands the "system." The mere fact that you're at SAIS doesn't give you the automatic credibility you think it does given the school's tendency (or perhaps reputation) of admitting people with little to no work experience.

Edited April 25, 2013 by soaps

[line909]

  Your little personal ranking there is arbitrary and more than a bit silly (and most likely offensive to many people on these forums). SIPA meaningfully below Tufts? What on Earth are you basing this on? You just come off as a pretentious putting your school above all others and then evaluating which are its "peer" programs. It's even funnier you compare it to HKS and WWS as an afterthought. Your perception differs markedly from reality, to say the least. You may have interned at some think tank, but having worked at one in both DC and NYC, no public policy schools are respected; in fact, you're generally discouraged from going to any of them. And in the first place, if you're a grad. student interning at a think tank, you did something wrong (pro tip: those internships are meant for undergrads). SAIS has no standing above any other school except on the GradCafe forums, where (and you're a case in point) SAIS students think they're some elite squadron of IR students. It's especially interesting they think that when, outside these mysterious "IR circles," no one knows what SAIS is. You're someone who hasn't even graduated from SAIS and you have your own personal ranking of IR schools? ...really? I was just comparing the perceptions in DC, where Georgetown is undeniably better regarded overall. You might not recognize that because you are probably only in DC because you're a SAIS student or intern, which is consistent with the SAIS stereotype I became familiar with while living there (you share that with GWU and American). A common SAIS stereotype is inexperience, not "super elite IR hero." I interned with SAIS students... as an undergrad.

 

The fact that you think a couple economics courses on the margins contributes materially to how you are evaluated (or perform) at the State Department proves how ignorant you are of what an FSO really does, even for those who choose the economic cone.

And I think you're wrong about State overall. Even asking friends and former supervisors, there's a strong cultural aversion to identifying the benefit of one program over another (largely because this benefit does not exist); in fact, it matters less and less the more you advance in your career, and even less so your first two tours. When you're bidding for posts, it matters much more who you've worked with. Not to mention, most people at State have not gone to public policy programs, so you are way overemphasizing the importance of brand name within State. 

 

Are you attending SAIS straight out of undergrad or something? I wouldn't be surprised. You have the arrogance of someone who has only ever been an intern and thinks he understands the "system." The mere fact that you're at SAIS doesn't give you the automatic credibility you think it does given the school's tendency (or perhaps reputation) of admitting people with little to no work experience.

 

Amen to the above!

[ansac111]

  Your little personal ranking there is arbitrary and more than a bit silly (and most likely offensive to many people on these forums). SIPA meaningfully below Tufts? What on Earth are you basing this on? You just come off as a pretentious putting your school above all others and then evaluating which are its "peer" programs. It's even funnier you compare it to HKS and WWS as an afterthought. Your perception differs markedly from reality, to say the least. You may have interned at some think tank, but having worked at one in both DC and NYC, no public policy schools are respected; in fact, you're generally discouraged from going to any of them. And in the first place, if you're a grad. student interning at a think tank, you did something wrong (pro tip: those internships are meant for undergrads). 

Dude you can disagree with his/her ranking but to rephrase the whole discussion and question whether IR field itself is meaningful  is a moot point. Everyone who is on this forum have already answer this question for themselves. So it is not fair to compare SAIS with HBS or HLS but to its 'Peer' programs at GTown, Columbia, Fletcher etc. dft 309 did that only but somehow it offended you and invoked such passionate response 

[ansac111]

What sort of lobbying or legal work do you have in mind? And can you practice in the US? 

 

I don't intend to practice as an advocate but there are lot of jobs in Regulatory and Compliance field for big corporations as well as law firms which does not necessarily require JD

Moreover firms like Patton Boggs and Hogan & Lovels have lobbying wing to their offerings.

 

Any idea on how both the programs would be for my intended career field?

[dft309]

I don't intend to practice as an advocate but there are lot of jobs in Regulatory and Compliance field for big corporations as well as law firms which does not necessarily require JD

Moreover firms like Patton Boggs and Hogan & Lovels have lobbying wing to their offerings.

 

Any idea on how both the programs would be for my intended career field?

I'm afraid I have no idea-I have contact with that sort of thing.

[Damis]

Nothing to add but this:

 

Ya'll are going to be heading to some of the best schools in the world in a few months. Let's all just be happy. No need to raise anyone's blood pressure over perceived notions of academic superiority. 

[Miskina]

I've always thought that arrogant people are also the ones who feel the most insecure about their own choices... Maybe life isn't as simple as your ranking. There are programs that are better fits than others, not just schools that rank high and others that are worthless. I'm wondering what people — who feel so superior to others — are doing in the field of public/intl affairs...

[dft309]

  Your little personal ranking there is arbitrary and more than a bit silly (and most likely offensive to many people on these forums). SIPA meaningfully below Tufts? What on Earth are you basing this on? You just come off as a pretentious putting your school above all others and then evaluating which are its "peer" programs. It's even funnier you compare it to HKS and WWS as an afterthought. Your perception differs markedly from reality, to say the least. You may have interned at some think tank, but having worked at one in both DC and NYC, no public policy schools are respected; in fact, you're generally discouraged from going to any of them. And in the first place, if you're a grad. student interning at a think tank, you did something wrong (pro tip: those internships are meant for undergrads). SAIS has no standing above any other school except on the GradCafe forums, where (and you're a case in point) SAIS students think they're some elite squadron of IR students. It's especially interesting they think that when, outside these mysterious "IR circles," no one knows what SAIS is. You're someone who hasn't even graduated from SAIS and you have your own personal ranking of IR schools? ...really? I was just comparing the perceptions in DC, where Georgetown is undeniably better regarded overall. You might not recognize that because you are probably only in DC because you're a SAIS student or intern, which is consistent with the SAIS stereotype I became familiar with while living there (you share that with GWU and American). A common SAIS stereotype is inexperience, not "super elite IR hero." I interned with SAIS students... as an undergrad.

 

The fact that you think a couple economics courses on the margins contributes materially to how you are evaluated (or perform) at the State Department proves how ignorant you are of what an FSO really does, even for those who choose the economic cone.

And I think you're wrong about State overall. Even asking friends and former supervisors, there's a strong cultural aversion to identifying the benefit of one program over another (largely because this benefit does not exist); in fact, it matters less and less the more you advance in your career, and even less so your first two tours. When you're bidding for posts, it matters much more who you've worked with. Not to mention, most people at State have not gone to public policy programs, so you are way overemphasizing the importance of brand name within State. 

 

Are you attending SAIS straight out of undergrad or something? I wouldn't be surprised. You have the arrogance of someone who has only ever been an intern and thinks he understands the "system." The mere fact that you're at SAIS doesn't give you the automatic credibility you think it does given the school's tendency (or perhaps reputation) of admitting people with little to no work experience.

 

For starters, of course it's arbitrary-it's my perception of other people's perception of SAIS, which is shaped by where I've been and what I've done. As for offending people, I don't understand why you think I should care. I'm not really here to make everyone feel good about themselves. I'm here to give my input, based on my experience, to those who ask for it. If I offended you because you don't like my opinions, that's your problem.

 

Your comment about think tanks discouraging people from going to policy schools is something I really find bizarre and something I haven't found anywhere. If anything, my experience has been that people with BAs have been told that they are expected to go to grad school (including policy schools) after about two years on the job. I'm thinking of places like the security and regional affairs parts of RAND and CSIS. 

 

As for why I interned at think tanks, they were pretty much the only option for me to get some experience that I wanted while I was still in school. It helped I got some funding from SAIS. I was offered a (paying) internship at a market entry firm, but turned that down because I didn't want to go into that field. I turned down a political risk firm because they got back to me after I had already committed to the think tank, and I didn't feel like burning bridges. I never seriously considered going back because I've always gotten offers I thought were better for me before I could apply to work there again. State was out because I had been told that the internships (actual internships, not SCEP/STEP positions) were full-time, while I wanted part-time. While I was there, I found some that weren't, but they were front-office type jobs that didn't do anything for me. Anything with a higher level clearance was out because I was overseas, including contractors. I don't do development or want to work in a multi-lateral organization, so the international financial institutions and the UN were out. I wanted to be in the US, so fieldwork was out. I wanted to do something substantive. That left think tanks, which I leveraged to get what I wanted. Later on, I interned on the Hill because it was part-time and I wanted to get a flavor of what it was like to work there. I interned at State because I got offers in good offices working on issues I wanted to work on.

 

Of course you interned with SAIS students. As far as I know, there are no internships out there that will only have your working with grad student interns and permanent staff. There simply aren't enough grad students for that to happen. What ends up happening is that good internships tend to end up going to grad students and sharp undergrads/BAs, which has been my experience. 

 

In one think tank I worked at, the other intern in my program was a Maxwell MAIR grad, but interns in other programs were undergrads. At another, we had a SIPA grad, an MA grad from Australia, two GW students, and a GW undergrad. At State when I was overseas, the other intern was an LBJ school grad student. While I was at Main State, the only other intern in my Bureau that I knew about that was in a "line office" (rather than in the Bureau's executive office) was a BSFS student. On the Hill, people ranged from JD/MA grads to a high schooler, which is typical. (Almost) everyone on the Hill starts as an intern, aside from mid-career types (by the way soaps, one of those types who has really helped me out and done some pretty impressive stuff is a SIPA grad, so don't get the impression I think your school is worthless). 

 

Well, I'm basing non-IR people's lack of knowledge of SAIS and its DC location on the fact that I have to explain to people that SAIS is an IR grad school and despite the JHU affiliation, I don't commute up to Baltimore. And why on earth would know they what it is and where it is? It's a niche school, not located on its parent institution's main campus or even in its city. There's no good reason for someone not involved in the field to know anything about the school. And are you restricting you perception of SAIS and Georgetown in DC to people who do IR? Because I totally concede that Georgetown has a better reputation than SAIS in DC among the general public, as well it should. Georgetown is the best university in the DC metropolitan area, with undeniably the best undergraduate school, law school, and (probably) public policy school. It also has one of the top graduate IR schools in the country. In terms of people who do IR, who are the ones who matter at the end of the day because they'll be the people you'll be working with and hiring you? My experience is that they're about the same, with a slight edge given to SAIS. 

 

Regarding econ, you completely missed my point. I don't think that another two econ courses makes me some sort of econ specialist. Other people, who didn't go to SAIS, do. I understand neither that nor how my being forced to understand some econ graphs make my program significantly better than others, but it's what others believe, and I'm just going to go with it, especially since I don't do econ myself, really.

 

As for getting jobs within State, you again missed my point. I'm not disputing that the quality of your work and the relationships you build are the most important factors in getting good assignments. ERs (EERs? I keep on forgetting the proper acronym; I kept on confusing them with OERs, the military officer equivalent) are no longer unimportant just because you went to certain schools. But they help develop a positive first impression and, coupled with legitimately good performance, do a lot building a good rep. While ERs still matter, signaling still does matter. What you did prior to State Department isn't truly unimportant, just not officially so. If it will make you feel any better, I do include SIPA in the category of "schools that will make a good impression". The offices I worked at in State Department and the office deputy director and higher equivalents I met did think, and did tell me, that going to SAIS helped me make a good impression because of the quality of the school and alumni. Now, did SAIS make me better than anyone else? Of course not. I was the intern, thus, my official and unofficial status was below everyone else. I think this difference in perception could be a matter of differences where we worked. I worked overseas in a Pol/Econ section and at a regional bureau. I worked with a lot of grads of public policy, IR, and regional studies programs. 

 

As for the rankings, you'll note that I said Tufts's reputation is just below SAIS and MSFS. That's my read on what other people think of the school. I think Tufts is just as good as SAIS and Georgetown and roughly equivalent. If I were ranking them by what I perceive their level to be, I'd rank all three of them identically. 

 

As I said about HKS and WWS relative to SAIS, I'm putting them at the same level. I don't think they should be compared together, just because I think they're different enough programs. In a number of areas, like development, they definitely overlap, but elsewhere they don't really have commonalities, like in my field. In my case, going to either of those schools would have reduced my options. I may have ended up doing the same things, but it would have been more difficult. 

 

My perception of SIPA is that it's perceived as being very good, but not quite on the same level. Basically, smart and capable people who went to a school that's not quite the best, but close. And keep in mind, I do security-focused stuff, so this perception holds true for that field. SIPA is simply not the best school for that sort of thing. It's very good, and really good people have come out of there, but it's not the best. 

[dft309]

I've always thought that arrogant people are also the ones who feel the most insecure about their own choices... Maybe life isn't as simple as your ranking. There are programs that are better fits than others, not just schools that rank high and others that are worthless. I'm wondering what people — who feel so superior to others — are doing in the field of public/intl affairs...

 

I'm ranking them based upon my perceptions of what their respective reputations are. I'm certainly not saying that people's schools have any bearing on their worth, value, or even necessarily their abilities.

 

Every program is different and fits different people differently. Heck, that's why so many different schools exist. They are all selling different products. The most important thing, more than reputation, is figuring out where you want to go and if that program will help you get there.

Edited April 26, 2013 by dft309

[Miskina]

I'm ranking them based upon my perceptions of what their respective reputations are. I'm certainly not saying that people's schools have any bearing on their worth, value, or even necessarily their abilities.   Every program is different and fits different people differently. Heck, that's why so many different schools exist. They are all selling different products. The most important thing, more than reputation, is figuring out where you want to go and if that program will help you get there.

I totally agree with you on this. For instance I'm super happy that I'm going to Elliott, because it's the better fit for me. I didn't even apply to Georgetown, SAIS, SIPA, Tufts—well, I might not have been admitted to these schools, who knows—simply because I would not have been able to work during the day. And with little work experience, a degree from these schools doesn't hold much value anyway. Regarding Elliott, their MA in International Affairs is a good program that allows me to improve my work experience during my studies. Here in Europe you cannot get a decent job—not even a job in your field—with just a BA, so I was not able to work several years before going to a "better-ranked school". So what you say is true: "The most important thing, more than reputation, is figuring out where you want to go and if that program will help you go there." I know that I'll be able do great things with my degree from Elliott.

[dft309]

@Miskina: Hey, in your case, you sound like exactly the sort of person who should go to the Elliott School and who not be better served by another school.

 

Definitely agree with you on the experience part-I've been successful thus far in large part because I've taken the opportunity while in DC to intern as much as possible. The internships and now jobs I've gotten have been mostly as a result of previous internships I've done, not SAIS directly anymore. Well, that, and I know two critical needs languages. Oddly enough, I got my first job because of a volunteer thing I did, and everything's just built from there. Showing solid education is good and will help you if you have good experience, but you need that experience. 

 

The people who don't do well coming out of SAIS are those who didn't have much experience coming in and didn't do much while there. That just doesn't work unless you're really gunning for an academic Ph.D program.

Edited April 26, 2013 by dft309

[soaps]

Dude you can disagree with his/her ranking but to rephrase the whole discussion and question whether IR field itself is meaningful  is a moot point. Everyone who is on this forum have already answer this question for themselves. So it is not fair to compare SAIS with HBS or HLS but to its 'Peer' programs at GTown, Columbia, Fletcher etc. dft 309 did that only but somehow it offended you and invoked such passionate response 

 

I wasn't questioning whether IR/public policy schools were meaningful; I was merely pointing out this question exists (to a large degree) in DC and at think tanks, where fellows have often come from (or teach at) these schools. I point that out because SAIS isn't as highly regarded in that environment as this guy claimed; rather, the opposite tends to be true because the interns that come from those programs tend to have more confidence/arrogance than meaningful work experience. This isn't true of everyone, and it's not only true of SAIS, but unfortunately it's true of a large (and vocal) chunk. Many people who end up at these schools with meaningful work experience go there to hone specific skills, and their success can largely be attributed not to their school but to their own drive and background and the synthesis they achieve with their particular programs. But perhaps despite that, even if many junior staff were considering IR programs, the near universal impression of them after actual employment tends to be significantly diminished, and this is especially true for DC-based schools. It is partly a product of an economy that forces MA students to take internships and junior staff positions that traditionally go to undergrads (and that don't require much skill beyond what an undergrad offers). That is why many deliberately choose schools outside DC to get out of the DC bubble where arrogance is often conflated with competence, where the market is oversaturated with public policy and IR degrees, and where interns think they run the country. I think anyone who has spent any significant amount of time in DC would echo this sentiment.

 

If I thought IR programs were meaningless, I wouldn't have applied to any, but I don't think they make sense for people straight out of undergrad. Again, for people honing specific skills, SAIS (and any of the top programs, or even those that aren't considered "top") are awesome. For people with no work experience, it's just funny how they trumpet their school's brand name so loudly, and SAIS students are known precisely for doing that. This forum is a case in point. Any school frequently talked about here, including those he thinks are "meaningfully worse," can be great if they're a complement to work experience. The only sense in which public policy/IR programs suffer, and this is especially true in recent years, is that they oversaturate the market with interns and junior staff with MAs doing grunt work. People who go into these programs, even GWU and American, can avoid that and go on to do amazing things, and the prestige/reputation of their school matters little.

Edited April 26, 2013 by soaps

[soaps]

The fact that you keep highlighting internships as your only relevant work experience just proves my point.

 

For starters, of course it's arbitrary-it's my perception of other people's perception of SAIS, which is shaped by where I've been and what I've done. As for offending people, I don't understand why you think I should care. I'm not really here to make everyone feel good about themselves. I'm here to give my input, based on my experience, to those who ask for it. If I offended you because you don't like my opinions, that's your problem.

Ah, well, my apologies for thinking you might care about offending others. I didn't realize that was an unreasonable expectation; then again, I'm not a student at SAIS, where unjustifiable arrogance is apparently the norm. I love how you are just doubling down on the DC intern stereotype. 

 

Your comment about think tanks discouraging people from going to policy schools is something I really find bizarre and something I haven't found anywhere. If anything, my experience has been that people with BAs have been told that they are expected to go to grad school (including policy schools) after about two years on the job. I'm thinking of places like the security and regional affairs parts of RAND and CSIS. 

 

I had a feeling you were probably a CSIS intern, the think tank that loves to oversaturate social media with reports of how highly regarded and highly ranked it is, despite the weaker brand name. Sort of reminds me of SAIS. And again, you probably have this impression of an "expectation" to go to IR schools because you have no meaningful work experience. The expectation is to get an advanced degree, yes, and IR programs make sense for people who have work experience. Those who use IR programs merely as a launching platform to get DC internships, however, diminish the brand name of every IR school.

 

You don't need to justify your internships to me, but the fact that you felt the need to proves how insecure you really are. Arrogance doesn't make up for insecurity.

 

As for your State internship, it's not hard to get a DC internship at State. I'm sure SAIS did help distinguish you... from all those undergrads.

 

As for the rankings, you'll note that I said Tufts's reputation is just below SAIS and MSFS. That's my read on what other people think of the school. I think Tufts is just as good as SAIS and Georgetown and roughly equivalent. If I were ranking them by what I perceive their level to be, I'd rank all three of them identically. 

 

If you think it's not apparent you're pulling this "ranking" out of thin air, you're woefully mistaken. I'd love to know the methodology you're using (beyond your own self-serving impressions) that put Fletcher "just below" SAIS and MSFS. I'd reiterate you're a SAIS student with no meaningful work experience thinking you are qualified to rank your own school's peers. But of course you don't realize how ridiculous that is because you also think being an intern at State, the Hill, and some think tank actually impresses people and gives you meaningful insight into some mysterious, esoteric system like "IR circles." That is the DC image interns have.

 

Students who are banking on their school's reputation (and who bother ranking reputations at all) reveal immediately how inexperienced they are because they have no idea how little these reputations matter in comparison to meaningful work experience. You will be nothing in the job market compared to applicants with more than internship experience, even those at schools you've given "meaningfully worse" reputations like GWU. But I'm sure HKS and WWS students are grateful (and relieved) you've put them at the same level as you, the inexperienced SAIS student. That made me chuckle. Those schools, unlike yours, value work experience to a much greater degree, and thus have a much better reputation even in these "IR circles" you've interned with. You may think (well, clearly think) you're special, but the experience threshold (and competitiveness) of SAIS isn't as high as you think it is. After all, that's why you're there.

Edited April 26, 2013 by soaps

[dft309]

The fact that you keep highlighting internships as your only relevant work experience just proves my point.

 

Ah, well, my apologies for thinking you might care about offending others. I didn't realize that was an unreasonable expectation; then again, I'm not a student at SAIS, where unjustifiable arrogance is apparently the norm. I love how you are just doubling down on the DC intern stereotype. 

 

 

I had a feeling you were probably a CSIS intern, the think tank that loves to oversaturate social media with reports of how highly regarded and highly ranked it is, despite the weaker brand name. Sort of reminds me of SAIS. And again, you probably have this impression of an "expectation" to go to IR schools because you have no meaningful work experience. The expectation is to get an advanced degree, yes, and IR programs make sense for people who have work experience. Those who use IR programs merely as a launching platform to get DC internships, however, diminish the brand name of every IR school.

 

You don't need to justify your internships to me, but the fact that you felt the need to proves how insecure you really are. Arrogance doesn't make up for insecurity.

 

As for your State internship, it's not hard to get a DC internship at State. I'm sure SAIS did help distinguish you... from all those undergrads.

 

 

If you think it's not apparent you're pulling this "ranking" out of thin air, you're woefully mistaken. I'd love to know the methodology you're using (beyond your own self-serving impressions) that put Fletcher "just below" SAIS and MSFS. I'd reiterate you're a SAIS student with no meaningful work experience thinking you are qualified to rank your own school's peers. But of course you don't realize how ridiculous that is because you also think being an intern at State, the Hill, and some think tank actually impresses people. 

 

Students who are banking on their school's reputation (and who bother ranking reputations at all) reveal immediately how inexperienced they are because they have no idea how little these reputations matter in comparison to meaningful work experience. You will be nothing in the job market compared to applicants with more than internship experience, even those at schools you've given "meaningfully worse" reputations like GWU. But I'm sure HKS and WWS students are grateful (and relieved) you've put them at the same level as you, the inexperienced SAIS student. That made me chuckle. Those schools, unlike yours, value work experience to a much greater degree, and thus have a much better reputation even in these "IR circles" you've interned with. You may think (well, clearly think) you're special, but the experience threshold (and competitiveness) of SAIS isn't as high as you think it is. 

 

As for the rankings, of course I pulled them out of thin air. That's what I said I did and what I presumed the OP wanted: what people think. What do you think, I'm psychotic enough to try to quantify my subjective impressions?

 

 

You know what, I can't respond to you without giving specifics that would, among other things, identify me. Fine, you win.

 

[ridofme]

Whoa, this thread is getting really nasty. Despite SAIS's supposed reputation of producing arrogant egomaniacs, it seems like the people who choose not to go to SAIS are the ones derailing every SAIS-related thread until it becomes a cesspool of ad hominem attacks and unsubstantiated hearsay.

 

Soaps - I have read a number of your posts on thegradcafe, and you are obviously a cheerleader for SIPA. It's a wonderful program that probably gets unfairly disparaged on this forum. But you are taking dft309's comments way too personally, and I'm afraid that you're the one who's coming off as defensive now. I like Damis's advice that we should all relax and enjoy our successes.

 

Now that I've decided where to go, I'm not even sure why I'm on thegradcafe anymore. I guess it's become a bad habit over the past year.