Should I Stay or Should I Go?

[process chemist]

So I just finished my first semester in grad school towards my MS in Chemistry. My boss has shown great confidence in me as a student and as a researcher. My first year went rather roughly, as I was put on probation after my first semester. The second semester, I literally bussed my hump to pull 2A's and 1B to pull my GPA to good standing with the university. I also didn't manage to do a lick of research.

 

 

As it stands I have a 3.00 GPA, and my boss is pushing me to stay in my current program to get my PhD, but I have a few issues. First, the program is not really highly ranked, although we have profs from Stanford, Purdue, UMich, etch (pretty much every school in the top 50 rankings), and we have arguably one of the better NMR facilities in the country, with great and knowledgeable support staff. I really want an tenure track academic position at a research university/research medical center where I know I can get some quality students, get research funded, and make a solid contribution. I don't think this is the place that will get me there. And I have already burned up my mulligan course work wise, so I am walking on the razor's edge if I stay here.

 

 

The way the profs grade graduate students is sort of harsh. Grad students are graded like undergrads, and we are not really graded on higher level thinking/problem solving skills, only with the exception of a few classes. We even have weed out classes for a bulk of the grad students in one branch of chemistry ( I am not in that branch, but everyone has to take the class if you are going after the PhD).

 

 

Myself and two other people in my cohort were put on probation after the first semester, and I think I am the only one who got off at the end of this semester, and one of my other friends just checked his grades and now he is headed to probation. We also had a student leave after the 1st semester, as the program wasn't a great fit for her, and she was having trouble with a prof in a grad course. The prof literally disliked this person and sent her harassing e-mails (not of a sexual nature). It was so bad the department head had to be brought in to solve the issue.

 

 

So in a cohort of 13 we had nearly half of the students bounced out after the first year.  I talked to my prof whose class I got a C in last semester, and we both agreed that I wasn't prepared for the class, as I am not a traditional student, and hadn't taken Organic Synthesis in close to 8 years before I stepped into her class last fall. You can't drop classes in our program, so you either you pass or you fail.

 

 

I am really at a crossroads in my career. Should I take the risk, and go through the admissions cycle again to get to a higher ranked program? Or should I be loyal to my PI? This guy is great, I love the work, he is approachable, he brilliant, and he wants us to succeed and do great work. He was a post doc in one of the foremost experts in the area that I want to pursue research, and they still talk to each other frequently. I think that may give me a leg up with his recommendation.

 

I just feel bad for not doing what he is asking me to do. I also don't know if my stats are good enough to get in anywhere else, as my undergrad GPA is higher than my grad GPA, and I probably won't get a publication before the application cycle starts. I want to work with specific profs at other schools, and I am worried that if I take this plunge, I will be stepping on toes, and may end up with nothing but a MS in the end.

 

I am so confused.

[memyselfandcoffee]

sorry i misread your post so i had to delete my answer

Edited May 17, 2013 by elise123

[ak48]

darling, you gotta let me know!

[TakeruK]

What does "stay for the PhD" mean? I am asking because in places like Canada, you start in a Masters program, then enter a PhD program afterwards. You have to apply for the PhD program separately, even if you want to do the PhD at the same school, with the same supervisor. It's not a guarantee that you will be accepted either! So, if doing a PhD at your current school means that you actually have to submit a full application etc. then I think it's perfectly reasonable for you to apply to other PhD schools as well.

 

I think your supervisor would understand that you want to consider other options for your career and PhD. From my (Canadian) point of view, you are enrolled in a Masters program, so your supervisor should have no expectations of "loyalty" beyond your Masters degree. So, it should be perfectly fine to apply to many schools next Fall for a place to go after your Masters. 

 

However, I think it's also important for you to realistically assess what your career goals are, what you are willing to give up for it, and what are your chances of getting into different schools. I don't mean to be discouraging, and I don't know what your circumstances are, but I'm just trying to offer honest advice and things to think about.

 

You say that you aren't going to have a publication before the next cycle and your grades sound like they are good, but not stellar. Where would you want to go to for your PhD? Did you already apply to these schools in the past? If you didn't get in before, what is different now about your application that would change things? Do you think the difference enough to make a difference in the applications this time? If you do get in, what are you doing to do differently to avoid the case you have now (sounds like a great advisor but terrible department culture/environment).

 

It might be helpful to think about what you would want to do if you don't end up getting in a different PhD program. It might be unlikely that you will get rejected everywhere, but you should have a plan can be formulated over the next year, instead of having to make an important decision in a hurry a year from now. That is, if your only option is to stay at your current school for your PhD, do you even want to do that? You say that you don't think it will get you to your career goals. What about other career goals? Does your "backup career plan" even require a PhD at all? If not, then you don't have to worry about stepping on toes and not being able to get more than an MS. 

 

I'm suggesting these questions for you to think about in hopes that it will help you make a decision you're happy with! I found it really helpful to think about these things when I was applying to PhD programs after my MSc. Like you, I came to the realisation that to go further in my field, I needed to go elsewhere for my PhD, and that most likely, "elsewhere" would be a different country than Canada. So after thinking about the above, I decided that I was going to only apply to programs that I think would help me meet my career goals, and if I were to get rejected everywhere, I'd follow my alternate career path in mind with my MSc. 

[aberrant]

First, the program is not really highly ranked... I really want an tenure track academic position at a research university/research medical center where I know I can get some quality students, get research funded, and make a solid contribution. I don't think this is the place that will get me there.

I might sound harsh and negative here, but it seemed to me that you misunderstood how faculty search committee look for TT candidates and evaluate them; besides, I believe that you are way ahead of yourself. The ranking of your program means much less than the quality and topic of your research as a graduate student; it also means less when comparing the ranking of a program with the reputation of your PI. In other words, you can still do great research in a "not really highly ranked" program, with someone extremely big in a specific field, and still have a good start in your career (not necessarily means you are a top candidate for a TT position in the future. Hence, "good start" only). Obviously, for a TT academic position, your work in graduate schools mean relatively less important than what you do as a postdoc -- as an almost completely independent researcher. This is one of a few reasons why some people trying to secure a postdoc position in the most competitive environment possible -- not only to challenge herself/himself, but because the outcome through those institutions tend to be pretty very positive -- assuming the quality of your research as an independent researcher (postdoc) in still great, besides getting good publication and possibly securing an award or two.

 

For your references, some schools recruit large number of students for their program, and weed them out as they progress. Reason behind it is that first year graduate students can be a cheap TA -- many hours of teaching with little compensation. Once they been through that stage, then they weed out those that are less competitive, predominantly based on GPA and qual.

 

 

 

As it stands I have a 3.00 GPA... Should I take the risk, and go through the admissions cycle again to get to a higher ranked program? Or should I be loyal to my PI? This guy is great, I love the work, he is approachable, he brilliant, and he wants us to succeed and do great work. He was a post doc in one of the foremost experts in the area that I want to pursue research, and they still talk to each other frequently. I think that may give me a leg up with his recommendation.

 

I just feel bad for not doing what he is asking me to do. I also don't know if my stats are good enough to get in anywhere else, as my undergrad GPA is higher than my grad GPA, and I probably won't get a publication before the application cycle starts. I want to work with specific profs at other schools, and I am worried that if I take this plunge, I will be stepping on toes, and may end up with nothing but a MS in the end.

Base on your description, I'm afraid that your profile from your MS program may hurt your chances for a higher ranked program, even though you probably have more research experience by now. Given that the economy is not necessarily great, together with sequester, you can expect that getting into graduate school in science is even more competitive than before. As you said, you probably won't get a paper this cycle, with a GPA in graduate school lower than that from undergrad.

 

To echo what I said earlier, my personal recommendation is to stick around your program and continue your PhD there. So what if the program is not known? What matters more if you are doing good research, enjoying the work, and your PI was the postdoc of the leader in the field that you are interested in. Now, if you really think that a highly ranked program must help you with your career goal, then I would have apply for PhD after getting your MS. Why? By then, hopefully you will have a paper or two, a higher GPA, and establish a good relationship with your current PI for the future (connection).

 

On a side note, the funding from the U.S. agencies seem to fund less on non-medical related research. What does it mean? If you know how the research medical center / college of medicine works, your external funding is extremely important. In other words, to have a higher probability to get funded, your better shot would be doing research that can provide solutions with medical application. If you are going to be a flat out Chemist (who I was as an undergrad), you will have almost zero chances to get a TT position in medical schools of a 4-year university.

 

Just a few things to really think about.

[juilletmercredi]

One of the most important things I learned in my PhD journey is that I have to live my life (personal and professional) for ME.  Not for my SO, or for my PI, or for my classmates, or my funders or the university administration.  A lot of PhD students don't want to leave even when they are miserable because they don't want to let down their PIs, embarrass themselves in front of their classmates, let down their families, or make their funding agencies or university/department look bad.  But they aren't the ones who have to take your exams, write your dissertation and struggle through your academic career - YOU are.  So if you decide that leaving is the best thing for you…then leave.

 

But looking over your post, it doesn't necessarily seem that leaving IS the best thing.  You say you aren't sure you can get to where you want from your PhD; I would have a discussion with your PI about that.  It's never too early.  Explain your goals and motivations and ask him, point-blank, if you can get there from here.  If you have another trusted professor or advisor you can ask who will give you a straight answer, ask them, too.  Since your PI did his postdoc under a foremost expert, he may have a network that can set you up nicely for what you want to do.  If they talk to each other frequently, maybe this expert can be on your dissertation committee.  Or maybe you can do a postdoc in an excellent lab that will help you transcend your program.

 

Other than that, it doesn't seem like there is too much else necessarily recommending you leave.  Nearly half of your classmates may have been on probation, but perhaps this is a program that has weed out classes and exams - that's not uncommon in natural science classes.  You agreed that you weren't prepared for the class you got a C in, but other than that, are you doing poorly?  Is your PI pushing you to stay because he needs a grad student to do his work, or because he thinks that you are overthinking things and can achieve your goals and succeed in this program?

 

I'm not in your field.  In my field, the social sciences, the reputation of your program is very important in hiring - almost as important as your PI, although not as important as the quality of your research.  But that's because in my social science field, research is done much more collaboratively and grad students often work with more than one PI and publish with more than one of them.  Grad students come out of PhD programs with only about 0-5 publications on average, I would say.  So it may very well be that in your field, your PI and your publications are far more important; in my field, going to a not-well-ranked program wouldn't help you get a job at a top ranked program unless you were a superstar.