What are you submitting as a WS?

[semicolon2013]

I'm working on my writing sample, and just curious about what people are submitting.  

 

I am revising a chapter from my undergrad thesis on conceptions of authorship in African American novels. The chapter is on Colson Whitehead's The Intuitionist read as a response to Barthes' "The Death of the Author."  

 

What are you all working on?  Anyone writing a whole new paper?

[aGiRlCalLeDApPlE]

I am writing a new paper since I don't even like my own MA thesis. I applied using a chapter of my thesis last year and after I was rejected, I knew why I hated it. I was writing a paper for a conference and I think it will be my WS. 

[BunnyWantsaPhD]

I'm trying to decide whether or not to use a chapter of my MA thesis. I think the chapter is okay (it's so hard to judge my own work) and my advisors like it and think I should use it. The problem that I have is that most of the literature review is in the introduction, so I think it looks like there isn't enough research throughout this chapter. Also, I take a few more pages than a normal paper to get at the thesis etc., but grad school application reviewers should be aware of the typical structure differences, right? 

 

I'm also working on 2 conferences papers that could possibly be adapted. I just want to take the easy way out and use a chapter from my thesis since it's already been worked on a billion times. Does anyone have any advice on this? If you're choosing to edit your thesis, how exactly are you editing it? (i.e. are you adding in more research, rearranging thesis paragraphs, etc?).

[Lycidas]

I'm revising a chapter of my undergraduate thesis (which is itself still in progress) as well. I'm doing a lot of work to help it stand on its own as a piece, and I'm working to add a bit more theory to it. Right now it's basically a standard New Historicist piece, and I'd like to make it a bit more unique if I can do so without making it overwrought at the same time

[plznE3]

Lycidas,

 

How long is the chapter that you are revising?

 

I am thinking of submitting the first 20 pages of my undergrad thesis but am wondering if I should work on another paper as well. Are you guys planning on submitting different WS to different schools depending on what fits their department best?

[Lycidas]

Lycidas,

 

How long is the chapter that you are revising?

 

I am thinking of submitting the first 20 pages of my undergrad thesis but am wondering if I should work on another paper as well. Are you guys planning on submitting different WS to different schools depending on what fits their department best?

 

My chapter was originally 24 pages, but has been edited in various ways to accommodate page requirements. In one case (CUNY Grad Center) I had to simply write another paper, since I couldn't cut down to their 15 page requirement. I think submitting the first 20 pages of your undergrad thesis is a viable option, but it will require some work to turn part of a thesis into an independent piece. Even though many schools say that an applicant can submit a note contextualizing a writing sample that is part of a larger work, my gut (a not always entirely reliable source) tells me that many on admission committees want to see applicants who can write a complete work akin to a journal article.

[BunnyWantsaPhD]

Sent my MA thesis chapter to a previous undergraduate professor (who is also a leading Victorian studies scholar) and he said it was a good example of my writing and that I should use it!! He of course gave me some revision suggestions, but they don't sound too bad compared to writing a whole new paper. 

 

Anyways, this doesn't really help anyone, but I just had to share my excitement, lol. 

[omensetter]

I'll be submitting a chapter of my MA thesis. It's around 30 pages at the moment but I'm planning to edit it down to around 20. I'm not yet sure whether this will best be achieved by cutting out whole sections completely (and thus possibly having to rework the thread of my argument to maintain coherence) or editing individual paragraphs and cutting down on examples and things (which might result in something not in-depth enough, or that tries to cover too much ground with not enough space). A combination of both will be most effective, maybe. It's a very theory-heavy piece (though focused on a novel) so perhaps also removing some of the more "introductory" theoretical content might work. But then who knows who'll be on the adcomm..

 

How's everyone else planning to approach editing?

[BunnyWantsaPhD]

One revision suggestion I was given was to really think about audience--I know this sounds ridiculously obvious, but bare with me. For some reason, when using the thesis chapter as my sample, I really only focused on editing/revising for page length. I totally forgot that the thesis was initially geared towards my thesis committee and thus some things were put in there specifically for a committee member who was unfamiliar with the time period. I wish I had thought to take these things out when sending it off to phd programs who would have been familiar with these aspects. It would have been another way to cut it down as well. So, go with the obvious---think about who is actually reading it (the PhD committee members). 

 

My apologies if this is a complete waste of your time. I just hadn't thought of it before (as far as taking things out that they would be familiar with that some of my committee members were not). 

[plznE3]

How is everyone addressing the different page requirements? Are you editing your paper down to different lengths?

[rhetoricus aesalon]

One revision suggestion I was given was to really think about audience--I know this sounds ridiculously obvious, but bare with me.

 

I think that's great advice, BunnyWantsaPhD, and is something we probably don't think about enough. This might also be something that differentiates a WS for a master's program from that of a PhD program. Maybe I was just lucky, but I felt like for my MA I just wanted to provide the WS that showcased the best, most "polished" form of my writing--not especially in a particular subfield of interest--just something that proved I was capable of doing research at a graduate level.

 

But with the PhD, I am feeling much more pressure to provide work that begins to show I am capable of the critical analysis and expression of contributing to the field as a scholar. It's not just about organization and coherence now, but also ideas and criticism.

[champagne]

How is everyone addressing the different page requirements? Are you editing your paper down to different lengths?

This probably won't apply for all, but one of professors has told me to largely disregard it. Obviously, this has sensible parameters (i.e. don't turn in a 6 page close-reading assignment from an undergraduate class, don't turn in a 50 page assignment from a graduate class), but I don't think adcomms will be overly perturbed if you turn in an 18-page work while their website states a 20-page requirement. If you present a coherent, interesting, and original argument within less-than-the-page requirement, then more power to you.

 

Of course, I'm applying to both MA and Ph.D. programs, so this might not apply to everyone. Also, said professor is about as lax as one can be and still be a prolific researcher. It's just my two cents, but I've explicitly been told not to worry too much about it.

[rhetoricus aesalon]

This probably won't apply for all, but one of professors has told me to largely disregard it.

 

To be honest, I've been told the same thing by my major professor. He said some committee members might be sticklers for the rules, but in the long run it is probably more stressful trying to find what to cut/add to a good WS than the benefits of doing so.

[ComeBackZinc]

I've heard much the same.

[BunnyWantsaPhD]

I think that's great advice, BunnyWantsaPhD, and is something we probably don't think about enough. This might also be something that differentiates a WS for a master's program from that of a PhD program. Maybe I was just lucky, but I felt like for my MA I just wanted to provide the WS that showcased the best, most "polished" form of my writing--not especially in a particular subfield of interest--just something that proved I was capable of doing research at a graduate level.

 

But with the PhD, I am feeling much more pressure to provide work that begins to show I am capable of the critical analysis and expression of contributing to the field as a scholar. It's not just about organization and coherence now, but also ideas and criticism.

 

Glad someone thinks it's good advice ; ) ...I definitely agree with the different types of writing samples required for the MA versus the PhD. Unfortunately, that means I feel so much more pressure to produce something awesome since I already have an MA. 

As far as page length goes, I think it's best to just use common sense (sorry, I don't mean that to sound insulting). If someone asks for 20 pages and you give them 30, you can bet that they aren't going to read the extra 10 and might be a bit frustrated/think that you didn't pay attention to the requirements. If you give them 18-22 they probably aren't going to care. At least that's my two cents. 

Edited August 15, 2013 by BunnyWantsaPhD

[plznE3]

Ah, I see, makes sense. I'm asking because I noticed that the page requirements for the writing sample differ dramatically from school to school. What do you guys do if you have one writing sample to work with and one school asks for 10 pages and another asks for 20?

[BunnyWantsaPhD]

I used the same paper last year for all of my programs; I just cut out certain parts of it and added footnotes to explain what was missing. Not sure if that was a bad idea or not, but oh well. I think I trimmed out some other aspects altogether. 

 

I'm always surprised when people say that they used different drafts for different applications. Not in terms of page length--if you have a 10 page paper (though I've never seen an application as for so short of a paper) and a different paper that is 20 pages and you like them both, then yeah, cut down on the revision time and just send different papers for different applications. What I'm surprised by is people saying that they send different things depending on what department they are applying to. I mean, if you say that you want to study Victorian Literature and Gender, shouldn't your paper deal with that topic? Or, put it another way, shouldn't your paper represent what you want to study and if it doesn't fit that department then you shouldn't be applying there?

[asleepawake]

 Also, I take a few more pages than a normal paper to get at the thesis etc., but grad school application reviewers should be aware of the typical structure differences, right? 

 

Some might disagree with me, but I'm absolutely in camp don't-dance-around-your-point, especially in regards to your writing sample. In some programs, adcoms are reading hundreds of writing samples, and they may be looking right away for your "point." They may not even read the entire thing. If you have something really great to say, don't let them miss it. I say get right to it and then prove it. I'd suggest re-organizing a bit so that you get to the point by the bottom of page one. You may never again need to do that, but when your application is one of hundreds, I think it's worth it.

[BunnyWantsaPhD]

I definitely understand what you're saying. In a normal paper, I definitely wouldn't "dance around my point." The problem I was pointing out was that in a 37 page thesis chapter (that is already being cut down to fit WS requirements), it was hard to figure out if I should rearrange everything since the first few pages were introducing the chapter as a whole. 

 

As I'm writing this, I'm realizing that you probably knew what I meant. Long story short, I'm taking your advice and revising the chapter so that I get to my point by the end of the first page. 

 

One thing I've realized throughout this process is that even though all of my recommendation writers said the chapter was fine (and I've had a few other profs look at it and they said the same thing too), I'm going to change the draft so that it fits *my* definition of what a WS should look like and should do. At the end of the day, I want to turn in something that I'm proud of and think represents my best work. I don't want to look back and think "I should have revised the first 3 pages so that the thesis came sooner, but since my recommendation writers said it was fine I didn't do it."

 

I think that we just all need to listen to ourselves a bit more. After all, if we're qualified to be in academia we do know something, right?

 

 

(sorry for being a little off topic). 

[rhetoricus aesalon]

I think that we just all need to listen to ourselves a bit more. After all, if we're qualified to be in academia we do know something, right?

 

(sorry for being a little off topic).

 

Whoa. It's Perl's felt sense! PS - I love off topic, obviously.

[somethinbruin]

This probably won't apply for all, but one of professors has told me to largely disregard it. Obviously, this has sensible parameters (i.e. don't turn in a 6 page close-reading assignment from an undergraduate class, don't turn in a 50 page assignment from a graduate class), but I don't think adcomms will be overly perturbed if you turn in an 18-page work while their website states a 20-page requirement. If you present a coherent, interesting, and original argument within less-than-the-page requirement, then more power to you.

 

Of course, I'm applying to both MA and Ph.D. programs, so this might not apply to everyone. Also, said professor is about as lax as one can be and still be a prolific researcher. It's just my two cents, but I've explicitly been told not to worry too much about it.

 

I got very similar advice from my adviser in my MA program who said that page numbers mattered very little. He basically said to make sure that your first ten pages are compelling, lively, and representative of your best work. He swore that Adcomms rarely read past page ten of a writing sample because they should know within a few pages if your writing chops are up to the task. I am inclined to believe him. 

 

For what it's worth, when I applied to MA programs I used a chapter of my undergraduate honors thesis. I did not revise it to make it a stand-alone document (probably a rookie mistake) but I did contextualize it with a short "abstract" paragraph at the beginning of the text. My MA apps were pretty successful, so I suppose it didn't hold me back. When I look at that sample now, I do think that the first 8 pages or so are really strong for undergraduate writing.

 

For PhD applications last year, I was lucky enough to have several essays to choose from (MA program was writing intensive). I used a 25 page seminar paper for longer writing samples (20+ pages), and I edited that paper down to 18 pages to submit for applications that required 15 pages (that was challenging). I had several applications that called for 10 page papers, and for those I chose a different essay that I did for a midterm that was 10 pages.

 

The end result of my efforts highlights what an utter crapshoot the PhD application process is: I got four funded PhD offers (and ten rejections or admits with no funding). So the majority of the time I was unsuccessful, but of those four funded offers, two of those applications used the longer essay and two used the shorter. The short writing sample was slightly more successful, only getting rejected three times. Like I said, crapshoot.

 

I guess my overall advice would be to get close to the page number, but don't stress about a few pages. I wouldn't recommend turning in a 30 page paper when they ask for 15 because that is substantively different than what the committee asked for, but I don't see a problem with turning in about 17-23 pages if they ask for 20.  

[jazzyd]

Some might disagree with me, but I'm absolutely in camp don't-dance-around-your-point, especially in regards to your writing sample. In some programs, adcoms are reading hundreds of writing samples, and they may be looking right away for your "point." They may not even read the entire thing. If you have something really great to say, don't let them miss it. I say get right to it and then prove it. I'd suggest re-organizing a bit so that you get to the point by the bottom of page one. You may never again need to do that, but when your application is one of hundreds, I think it's worth it.

 

During the revision process for my WS, one of my recommenders was constantly pushing for this^ with my thesis and everything else. While meandering around a certain topic can actually often lead to a more flexible and nuanced discussion (and plenty of people write this way), a WS is almost for sure not the place to do that unless you can do it very very well.

 

@Bunny, if your recommenders say it's fine, then maybe don't take that necessarily as gospel, but you don't have to discount what they say either. And none of us have read it of course, so we can only reflect on what you've told us. Maybe it takes you awhile to get to a hard thesis, but the topic of discussion and the main questions your chapter is focused on is clear from the get go.

[BunnyWantsaPhD]

Whoa. It's Perl's felt sense! PS - I love off topic, obviously.

 

Haha, thx. Glad you enjoy my off topic comments. 

[BunnyWantsaPhD]

@Bunny, if your recommenders say it's fine, then maybe don't take that necessarily as gospel, but you don't have to discount what they say either. And none of us have read it of course, so we can only reflect on what you've told us. Maybe it takes you awhile to get to a hard thesis, but the topic of discussion and the main questions your chapter is focused on is clear from the get go.

 

Thanks for the advice. I'll definitely take this all into consideration. 

[guinevere29]

I had to cut my sample down for one school that asked for a smaller page range than others. Instead of just cutting it down or including the first 10 pages I showcased the paragraphs where I felt my writing really shown and then cut paragraphs where I really was just making a simple point that was neccesary for the sake of my argument. Instead, I included a bracketed summary of cut paragraphs within the paper. Incidentally, I wish I had done that earlier just as an exercise becasue it really made me think through which elements of my writing were worth showcasing, and which were rather superfluous.