Job versus PhD program

[nesw4314]

Hello,

I'm going to keep it short and concise and not write a bunch of drama. Basically, I'm in a Ph.D program at Berkeley (fellowship for five years) and working full time at a company. It's hell trying to do both (I had to find out for myself first) and now I need to choose one. Which option to choose?

 

Basic facts: married, 3 month old daughter, lots of bills that need to be paid down, school loans, high standard of living.

 

Option 1: Do the Ph.D.

I absolutely am in love with the thought of pursuing a Ph.D. and thereafter obtaining it. I may or may not need it for the type of career I want because I could see myself working in several different capacities but I'd like to have it just in case. Concern: giving up my current salary, living like a poor person and feeling guilty about making my wife quit her job. 

 

Option 2: Keep my job

I am making a lot of money at my current job (nearly six figures) but I hate it. However, it's in an area my wife and I both have fallen in love with, it's where our daughter was born this past summer, we have a church here we've recently joined, and we love our daughter's daycare here. Concern: something bad happening that results in me getting let go (e.g., a Ph.D. taking my spot somewhere down the line) and then getting stuck in a lab tech position because I wouldn't have a Ph.D.

 

Please help.....

Edited September 18, 2013 by nesw4314

[TakeruK]

I think this is very much a personal decision -- only you can decide what you want / what's best for you! I am surprised that they let you go ahead with both job and PhD this long -- most fellowships will prevent you from committing to a full time (or even part time) job elsewhere!

 

If I was in your exact shoes right now (permanent, full time, well-paying job offer, spouse has good job that she loves, living in a city we love, having great support system for our new family), I would definitely take the job. This is because a PhD is no guarantee that you will end up with a job that you would like more! My current plan is to get a PhD in hopes of getting at least a permanent research staff position in a location where we could live the lifestyle we want and also be close to a support system for our future children (i.e. close to our family). 

 

Sure, I would be happier with more independence/control on my research as a professor instead of a research scientist but that difference would be marginal for me. To me, I would definitely trade career happiness/satisfaction for family happiness! Of course, in the ideal world I would want to have both but if that happens, I would feel like I've won the lottery. In practical terms, I'd gladly suffer through 40-50 hours/week of a job I hate and spend ~120 hours a week living a life I love with my family.

 

Also, I would consider why I want a PhD in the first place. Maybe your field/career goals are different but to me, if I felt that a research scientist position is hell, then I probably would not want any career that required a PhD either (since anything in my field that required a research degree like the PhD would probably require doing research). I would not do a PhD just because I want to extend my education -- I think of my PhD as required training to get certified to work in a career that I want in academia. Ultimately, I might end up outside of academia which is also fine, because I think the PhD is also a qualification I need for the jobs I want. 

 

In terms of finances, to me, $85k/year is a great starting salary. If I stay in academia, that's about the starting salary for an assistant prof at my dream job school. But I would only be able to get there after 5 years of grad school ($30k/year and 4-6 years of post-doc ($40 to $50k/year). Going through the academia route is basically an opportunity cost of about $40k/year for 10 years...$400k and 10 years just to end up where you would be right now (in terms of salary and career advancement), assuming everything goes well and you actually get a tenure-track position in a location you actually like. Also, if you stay in your job for 10 years, you will probably be further advanced and probably at a higher salary grade too. And, even if you changed your mind about being unhappy in your job, I think 10 years as a research scientist is probably more useful experience than a PhD and 2 postdocs (unless you are going to try to get into academia).

 

The bottom line for me is that personally, there is a list of things that would make my life happy and complete. The items include things like location, salary, spouse happy at their career, support system for new family, job satisfaction etc. In order to achieve all of them, my ideal job would be a position at a university near my hometown (I'm not certain if I want to be in a position that is mostly research or mostly teaching). But for me, it's pretty unlikely to get all of this! Thus, I'd gladly trade one aspect (i.e. job/career happiness/satisfaction) to be sure that I'll achieve everything else on that list (and also get it 10 years faster than my current career plan). That's just my point of view though, I'm not saying this would necessarily work for you but I hope explaining my opinion would help you form yours! Good luck

[Lisa44201]

I would go for the PhD. It opens up doors that might not be open otherwise. I couldn't stand to have my children grow up watching me be miserable in a job I hate; kids pick up on that, and that's not an attitude towards employment that I want to impart on my children.

 

I have a six-year-old and a three-year-old. I've dragged them and my husband from NY to OK on this journey. My husband has been incredibly supportive; if he had not liked this area, I'm not sure we'd be here.

 

Career happiness and family happiness are not mutually exclusive.

[sunpenguin]

I agree with TakeruK that this is a personal decision only you can make, but I also agree with Lisa: if I were in your shoes, I would take the PhD. One point is that it's remarkably easy to adjust your standard of living when you're doing something you love. (This wouldn't apply if you were choosing between a decent-paying job and something that would put you below the poverty level, but that's not the case here.) Another is that you're always going to wonder what would have happened if you'd chosen the PhD. A very likely scenario, if you choose the job, is that in five years you'll find yourself reapplying to PhD programs but having a hard time getting admitted because adcomms will see you already started one and then dropped out.

 

Jobs come and go. Education is with you for life.

[TakeruK]

I see Lisa and sunpenguin's point of views and I agree, in some circumstances (i.e. depending on the student and their family), going the PhD might be the better route. Also, I forgot to mention that I have a Masters degree from Canada before starting a US PhD program. In Canada, the Masters degree is basically the first 2 years of a Canadian PhD program (if I had stayed in the same place for my PhD, I would probably finish in another 3-4 years instead of starting over in the US). A MSc in Canada opens up a ton more opportunities than a BSc -- you can be a prof. at non-research universities, you can be, for example, the science manager for a museum, you can be a lab manager for a research lab (one of my undergrad research project was managed by a brilliant MSc), or a research technician, staff scientist, etc. Having a PhD might make you more competitive for some of these positions, but it's only high level independent research positions that would really be excluded without a PhD. Even my lab manager was able to do research independently and also supervise undergrads.

 

Also, although my reply time was way after the OP's first post (I started writing then had to leave), I was reading the original version of the post where the research position sounded much more permanent (i.e. not a 2 year renewable contract or something and also it sounded like it was an actual research related position, which the current wording doesn't imply anymore). Anyways, so please take the above points into account when I said that I would personally go for the job over the PhD. 

 

Just to respond to a few valid points made by Lisa and sunpenguin:

 

1. Both of my parents had jobs they hated when I was growing up. They had to flee their home countries at a young age and did not even finish high school. I found that this really motivated me to work hard to end up in a job that at least utilizes my skill instead of just my labour. I think it's important to be a bit more realistic when saying that we "hate" a job. I think it's unrealistic to expect that every one of us will have a job we love. My goal is to just avoid a job that I would hate (the only ones I hate are the ones that make use of my labour only) and be content even if I did not end up with a job that makes me happy. I would content to do any kind of research job -- research independence is ideal for happiness, but not having it would not make me hate the job.

 

2. Career happiness and family happiness are not mutually exclusive, of course. But for me, since I have such high constraints on family happiness, if I am able to have a job that meets all of the family happiness criteria now (e.g. like the job the OP has) then I would be willing to give up career happiness to secure family happiness. My wife has also been incredibly supportive on "our" PhD journey and we picked the current program together -- the PhD program decision was made with equal weight to academic fit and personal fit.

 

3. Personally, I think the expression "Education is with you for life", when applied to "formal education" only makes sense for high school and college/university level work (one can certainly continue educating themselves in their interests outside of a formal degree program throughout one's life though!). As I said above, I do not believe that the PhD degree is NOT a life enrichment program. To me, it is purely the training/certification necessary in order to carry out independent and innovative research. I would not advise anyone to do a PhD unless that was their goal -- a PhD program is not the place to go if you just want to learn more about your interest and pursue your passions. This is why I was confused by the OP's seemingly contradictory desire of wanting to attain a PhD yet also absolutely hating a research job (I've see the wording has changed now, but it originally implied that the job was research related). Maybe I was wrong about the research nature of the job, which would change a lot of things I've said above. 

 

4. It's true that one might feel regret about not completing a PhD in the future. But the reverse is also true. A PhD is no guarantee for career satisfaction or happiness. In terms of career advancement/progress, after the PhD and/or postdocs, the OP might be far behind where the OP could have been if they started their career now and then regret having gone the PhD route. Or not. The point is that we don't know the future and every point I might write towards going for the job can be refuted by another point for the PhD and vice versa. This is a tough decision and I don't envy the fact that you have to make it. However, at the same time, you are in a very fortunate position to have a choice in your future -- some people are currently facing neither of your choices! Good luck

[juilletmercredi]

I am strongly against the idea of pursuing a PhD "just in case."  I only think that's a viable reason if a person is already IN a PhD program and has completed a significant proportion of it (3+ years) and is pretty close to finishing.  You get a PhD - and sacrifice the time, energy, and earnings - because a job that requires a PhD is your FIRST choice.  If there are several other things that you would be really happy doing and you're not even sure that you really want a job requiring a PhD…well, do those other things first!

Here's the way I see it: If you can get into a graduate program now, you can get into a graduate program in 3 or 5 years down the road if you change your mind again.  There's no reason to believe that you will find it harder to get into a PhD program later just because you left one - I know at least two people who have left one graduate program and started another one in a department that was on par with their original department.  In the event that you do get let go for a PhD holder, you can then choose to work another job or return for a doctoral degree.  But if you and your partner are settled, you love your area, and you don't really want to move - then stay.  Deal with the hypothetical lay-off if it happens. If it does, you can change careers.

I disagree that it's easy to adjust your standard of living when you have a family.  It's DIFFICULT.  It's easier emotionally to do that if you're doing it for something you love, but you also have a wife and daughter to worry about.  Also, I've talked to people who have left PhD programs and very few of them say that they "always wonder what would've happened if they had stayed in a PhD program."

TakeruK's advice about the economics makes a lot of sense.  I also had parents who, growing up, weren't exactly thrilled about their jobs.  My dad never loved his, and my mother was a SAHM who worked a lot of low-paying retail jobs part-time at various points in my life until she went to nursing school when I was 15 or 16 (and fell in love with nursing, but by then I was in college).  I can't say that it had a significant impact on my development.

 

I'm not saying that you shouldn't stay in your program, OP, but what I'm saying is that there's nothing wrong with making the decision to leave it and definitely nothing stopping you from returning in a few years - say, after your daughter goes to school or you get too tired of your job to continue.

[nesw4314]

To the poster above, changing careers is just not in my blood. I am strongly against changing careers. I believe one goes to college and then graduate school to receive training for a specific career path and any deviation from that career will have been a waste of degrees. I absolutely couldn't entertain the possibility of having to change careers. 

 

Also, I potentially want to be a professor, not necessarily at a major university. In order to do that I need a Ph.D. Also, even if I don't go into academia I could see myself serving as a research scientist for the US Department of Agriculture (I'm in a bio-agricultural science field), which also requires a Ph.D. I absolutely hate my current job and I just don't see how it makes sense to decide at 24 that I'm going to choose to stay at a job for the rest of my life (because as I said, I'm in a small field where you need a PhD to do most things). Because I'm in a small field there's no getting back in a PhD program later if I don't do it now because everyone knows everyone......It's now or never, not now or later.

 

Finally, I never said I dislike research, in response to a previous poster -- not to the poster immediately above this post. I said that I dislike my current job where I do research. I don't choose my research projects. I don't call any shots really. Not to mention, the culture itself just sucks. However, such a statement in no way implies that I dislike research in my field of study, it just means I don't like the research I'm currently doing for this company where I have little authority. 

Edited September 23, 2013 by nesw4314

[TakeruK]

To the poster above, changing careers is just not in my blood. I am strongly against changing careers. I believe one goes to college and then graduate school to receive training for a specific career path and any deviation from that career will have been a waste of degrees. I absolutely couldn't entertain the possibility of having to change careers.

 

I just wanted to say that if I remember anything from the "Career and Personal Planning" classes we had in high school, the most important thing in career development is to be flexible to change and thus develop transferable skills. In addition, throughout college, the attitude of my department was not that "oh you are getting a physics degree, let's prepare you for physics grad school." Instead, they emphasized all the skills you develop as a physics major and how you can use these skills to have careers outside of physics/astronomy. For example, alumni from my undergraduate program have gone on to work for companies like Amazon or Plenty of fish.

 

I don't mean to directly contradict you, but I really do not think it's realistic to expect to be able to choose a career path in our 20s and then stick with it for the rest of their lives. My own teachers did not do this (one was a banker until her 40s then switched to become a teacher), my parents didn't do this, my in-laws didn't do this either. I think it's important to be a bit more open-minded, and instead of thinking "this degree in X will get me a job in X", I would think "this degree in X will train me in skills A, B, C, for use in the future". Similarly, I would think "this job/career I'm having now is giving me skills and experience in D, E, F and I can use this for the future". This is why I said above that the PhD is not terribly useful unless you cannot be happy without a job that requires it. You develop a few useful skills in the PhD, but they are not very transferable -- everything in the PhD is pretty much designed for one career path -- academia. I think working in a research position for 5 years might net you more employable/transferable skills than a PhD (except in academia). 

 

However, if you truly feel strongly that you absolutely must work in your own field, then obviously you will be happier doing so and it sounds like you want to choose the PhD. I agree with juilletmercredi that there it isn't a good idea to do a "PhD just in case". It's a huge commitment and cost, as you have stated in your original post, but ultimately, I think being happy about your life is more important. I would just advise you to make sure whatever choice you make is actually what you and your family want. I would lean towards the research job because that's how I'd get the most happiness out of the situation, but maybe that's not necessarily true for you!

 

Also, I potentially want to be a professor, not necessarily at a major university. In order to do that I need a Ph.D. Also, even if I don't go into academia I could see myself serving as a research scientist for the US Department of Agriculture (I'm in a bio-agricultural science field), which also requires a Ph.D. I absolutely hate my current job and I just don't see how it makes sense to decide at 24 that I'm going to choose to stay at a job for the rest of my life (because as I said, I'm in a small field where you need a PhD to do most things). Because I'm in a small field there's no getting back in a PhD program later if I don't do it now because everyone knows everyone......It's now or never, not now or later.

 

We have similar career goals here. Many of the jobs I want to have require a PhD, or having a PhD would make me more competitive. But it's important to remember that a PhD does not mean a guaranteed job that you'd like. I think my field is pretty small too, and there are many many more PhDs graduated each year than there are professorships open. Even during my PhD, I am doing (and plan to do more) extra side things that will hopefully give me some employable skills in case I don't make it in academia.

 

Finally, I never said I dislike research, in response to a previous poster -- not to the poster immediately above this post. I said that I dislike my current job where I do research. I don't choose my research projects. I don't call any shots really. Not to mention, the culture itself just sucks. However, such a statement in no way implies that I dislike research in my field of study, it just means I don't like the research I'm currently doing for this company where I have little authority.

I'm sorry to have misunderstood your post. The wording was slightly different in the original and I misunderstood it to read that you hated the research work you were doing, not just the culture of the job / the job itself. As academics, we all value academic freedom and independence but the truth is, I think very few people actually get to choose their own research projects and truly call all the shots. You probably have seen this: http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1436 It's a satire, and professors do get a ton more freedom than a research scientist; however, it's really only professors or researchers at soft money institutes that get this limited freedom. Again, this is only a small subset of all the possibilities that can happen after you get your PhD (during which, you won't really have much freedom either, but probably more than your current job). 

 

I stopped here to re-read what I wrote and I feel that my post sounds more and more like I'm trying to tell you to not do the PhD. So I just want to say that this is not the case! I was trying to point out my opinions on the advantages of not doing a PhD when you have another opportunity, but I guess they came out more strongly than I intended. I am in a PhD program and I'm pretty happy with it in fact! However, I hope you will still consider what I said above about being more open-minded about a career path, instead of picking one and sticking to it. You don't have to agree with me, I just hope you don't dismiss my post as someone who is trying to convince you not to do a PhD. Whatever you choose, it should be whatever you and your family think is the best path forward for yourselves!

[juilletmercredi]

To the poster above, changing careers is just not in my blood. I am strongly against changing careers. I believe one goes to college and then graduate school to receive training for a specific career path and any deviation from that career will have been a waste of degrees. I absolutely couldn't entertain the possibility of having to change careers. 

With all due respect, that's rather silly.  Especially for someone pursuing a PhD.  Nowadays, tenure-track jobs are hard to come by, and research positions are also competitive.  What if you finish your PhD and don't get a tenure-track job in your field?  Are you going to give up and not work anywhere?  What if you do become a professor and you realize that you hate it and it makes you miserable?  Not to mention that your training doesn't become obsolete just because you change careers.  For instance, you may go from being a professor to being a program official at the NIH.  That's a career change, but you're still using your PhD!

Also, even if I don't go into academia I could see myself serving as a research scientist for the US Department of Agriculture (I'm in a bio-agricultural science field), which also requires a Ph.D. I absolutely hate my current job and I just don't see how it makes sense to decide at 24 that I'm going to choose to stay at a job for the rest of my life (because as I said, I'm in a small field where you need a PhD to do most things).

I never said that you had to stay with that job forever.  All I said was that if you and your wife are comfortable where you are, then maybe it's a good idea to stay there *for now* until you're not so comfortable, or are ready to move on.

. Because I'm in a small field there's no getting back in a PhD program later if I don't do it now because everyone knows everyone......It's now or never, not now or later.[

I'm skeptical about this.  If you took a leave of absence from your program, you could certainly return later.  Moreover, I know people in fields big and small who have left and come back later.  In fact, I have a friend in the biomedical sciences who was in a great PhD program, left in year 2 or 3, worked for 2-3 years in the field, reapplied to a program closer to his partner and is starting it this fall.

Also, if you say that you can't fathom choosing a job at 24 and doing it for the rest of your life…how does that jive with you saying that you believe that you to go college and then graduate school and do that career for the rest of your life?  Aren't those the same thing?  How can you hold those two incompatible beliefs?

I know one person who has stuck with the same career his entire lifetime, and that's my dad (has worked in transit for the 30 years he's been a working adult).  And as I already stated, he's not terribly happy.

 

Like TakeruK, I want to emphasize that I am NOT telling you not to do the PhD..  In fact, given how strongly you feel about it, it may indeed be the right choice for you.  I'm merely pointing out some other things that may be useful to take into consideration when you are making the choice.  I love my PhD program, and it's been a great 5 years so far (I only have 1 left).  But as TakeruK also pointed out, I've found that my happiness in the program has not had so much to do with what I was studying but everything to do with my life AROUND the program.  I haven't changed my field in the 5 years I've been here, but I've gone from okay to miserable to very happy during that time - and that was mostly based on me making adjustments to my personal life to be happy, not the way I've pursued my career.  I think in this economy, people overstate the importance of what you do for a living to your happiness, and understate the importance of pretty much everything else in life.