Advice for LoR: Know you well but tougher v.s. Good impression but Less interaction

[mphct]

Hello everyone!

 

I had headache with picking whom to write my letters, and am really hoping to get some advice!

 

One professor with whom I took 3 courses. He is one of the most senior professors in poli sci department. He knew me well. I went to his office often, attended seminars he hosted out of class, and interned in a think tank with which he affliated. But he is very tough. I am sure he will write me a desent letter, but not sure if he will rank me as outstanding or one of the best (He was very generous to provide his letters but he said he would rank students among all he has taught.)

 

Another professor is a big name is policy circule. I knew him because I invited him to speak to an international conference I organized. Later, I audited his graduate classes once, actively attended seminars he hosted, and keep him updated about my recents. My interaction with him is not as much as with the first professors, but perhaps I left better impression on him, and I was one of the few undergrads he had interacted that much. Another close professor of mine who knows both of them suggest that this professor will generally write a nicer letter, and it will be a "safe" choice if he is willing to write. The concern is that I am not sure if my interaction with him would provide enough information to allow him write an informed letter.

 

P.S.: I am aiming for MPP/MIA which requires lots of professional experiences. I have one great academic letter for sure, and I am wondernig if I choose the second professor (mentioned above) who would write my abilities out of class will be a good plus?

 

Thank you everyone for your generous thoughts and suggestions!

 

 

 

 

[nugget]

Perhaps go with the second one and provide him with additional information that will help him write a more detailed letter, such as a copy of your c.v., transcript or copies of any papers, projects or assignments that are worthy of bringing to his attention. In fact, I would ask him what you could do to give him the information he requires to write you a LOR see what he suggests.

 

If he doesn't know you well enough to write the letter than he will probably let you know, so I wouldn't be too concerned about that.

Edited November 10, 2013 by jenste

[Loric]

If you already think your first prof is going to sound like a buttclown (Who ranks people in rec letters? Who does that?!?) then he will probably sound like a buttclown to the adcomm, no matter how well he even ranks you.

 

Try for the second, settle for the first if needed. Whoever can writer the stronger letter that makes you look better is the right choice. Someone who is willing to say anything negative about you or say you're in any way lesser or inadequate is typically not that person.

 

No one on an adcom is expecting brutal honesty.

[mphct]

Thank you Mocha and Double Shot for your replies! I decide to exclude the first Proff, even though he witnessed by progress during the years. I will go for the second one for sure. 

[mphct]

Also, I have another question. Is it ideal that the RoL's from your departmental major? I am applying for Master in Public Policy, a professional program, and I need to prove that I have ability to succeed in classes rather than to be successful in one particular filed as an academic. So in this sense, can I choose a professor (who is really a big name in his filed but slightly different from my major: History v.s. International Relations) but knows my coursework well? Thank you again!

[Loric]

Sure, why not?

 

If someone can hit the needed talking points about you, supervised you, knows who the heck you are, and can write a strong letter.. they're good.

 

If you're going into a very distinct field, asking someone from the outside to reccomend you wont be the best course. They're supposed to speak to your abilities.. and they may think you're a great person but if you say.. want to go into underwater basket weaving, and they don't know anything about weaving or being under water.. well.. it's a poor choice.

 

Consider what would make a strong letter that paints you as a strong candidate. Can this person write one? To an extent it is about "can this person do grad level work" but also "do they have requisite skills needed for this particular program."  Adcoms know people fudge their resumes and credentials... it's much harder to get a random 3rd party from a university to say you can do something you can't.

[emmm]

I don't think ranking in letters is that uncommon, and I believe some forms specifically ask recommenders to do this. Ideally, your recommenders would rank you in the top 10% or higher. You should ask if people can write you "strong" letters and then you need to trust them. Most professors want their students to do well and will offer advice on grad school applications/programs if asked. I unexpectedly found that asking people to write letters for me was the one bright spot of what was otherwise a pretty stressful experience. My recommenders were enthusiastic and interested in how the process was going for me. They were pleased when I got interview invites and supportive when I got rejections and happy for me when I finally got accepted. I ended up becoming closer to the people I asked for letters from as a result, even the one woman who intimidated me and who I did not think would be likely to write me a strong letter. I was wrong -- she even offered to proofread my SOP! So don't worry  overmuch -- if they agree to write for you, they  most likely will try to write something that helps you.

[TakeruK]

If you already think your first prof is going to sound like a buttclown (Who ranks people in rec letters? Who does that?!?) then he will probably sound like a buttclown to the adcomm, no matter how well he even ranks you.

 

Try for the second, settle for the first if needed. Whoever can writer the stronger letter that makes you look better is the right choice. Someone who is willing to say anything negative about you or say you're in any way lesser or inadequate is typically not that person.

 

No one on an adcom is expecting brutal honesty.

 

As emmm said, ranking is pretty common in some fields, such as mine. It gives a quantitative way to compare applicants. For example, Prof A might think the top 25% of their students are "excellent" and Prof B might only think the top 10% of their students are "excellent". So if they both write "Student X is an excellent researcher", they can mean very different things. The ad comm in my field would want to know how strongly your prof endorse your application -- are you one of their brightest products, or are you an average student in the lab? Also, being ranked in the top e.g. 15% of a very prestigious lab/group might be much better than being the top 5% at a lesser known lab. 

Edited November 14, 2013 by TakeruK

[Loric]

What a terrible way to see the world and other people.. 

[TakeruK]

As much as I would also want the world to be a nice idealised place where everyone has the opportunity to pursue all of their interests, the reality is that resources are limited and grad programs will want to have some strategy on how they allocate their resources (time of profs as well as money). For each school, this usually means getting the best / most talented students they can. Thus, the application process is for each school to determine how much they want each applicant to attend their school and this would largely depend on how good of a researcher each applicant is. There is also other aspects such as fit that come into play, but ultimately, every school want to get the most talented people possible. And so the application process is designed to help them decide who are the most talented + best fit out of the application pool.

 

Most programs cannot accept every applicant who is good enough / qualified for the program. So, things like LORs need to say more than whether or not the candidate is qualified to pursue a PhD -- they need to help the grad program decide how the candidate compares to others that the LOR writer has seen, and ultimately, how the candidate compares to all of the other applicants. 

 

This level of competition is present all through academia, at least in my field. Research grant funding is limited -- we cannot (and should not) expect that taxpayers or other agencies to give us unlimited resources to do research. Many great research ideas will go unrealised and unfunded because while they may be worthwhile things to study, they just might not be as good as other ideas in the competition. 

 

So, while I would like for all of us to have all the resources to do everything we can dream of, I think it's important to know that in reality, resources are limited and so pretty much every single resource (PhD positions, post-doc positions, grant money) is awarded at a competitive level.

[mphct]

Thank you everyone for all your thoughtful responses!!! They have been really helpful!!!

 

Just an update: I've asked the second professor to write my letter, and he gave an immediate positive reply. What I'll need to do is to send him over my purpose of interests, e-address, etc. I am also plannign to send him some of my writing that might be interest to his area of focus and a sheet of facts of our intereactions to ease his memory recalling process (hopefully to make my letter more detailed and personal).

 

What is unexpected to me is that I thought my academic letter would have no problems, but my targeted professor hasn't replied me and it's the fifth day. It is very rare, since we had email interactions just weeks before and all seem go well. He is generous man, very nice to his student and I had a sense that our relationship would last for years despite of my graduation. I know he is a busy person, but this is just making me a bit freeking out.

 

So I still have headeche picking the academic letter. I have two letters supposing to comment my initiatives taken outside of the class, and I really need one strong academic letter to show my "intellectual distinction", if borrow the words of criteria.

 

And I have three candidate professors to pick:

 

1). A very distinctive historian. Very renowened in his filed, but not directly related to my major which is international relations. If he says yes, then I trust him that the letter will be good. Otherwise I think he would just ignore your request.

 

2). My targeted professor in poli sci department. Very nice and very generous in showing his praises. He will write good thing I am sure for that. But he is just too busy that he might not have enough time and energy writing me a very personal letter. I don't think a letter full praises will make a strong case for my dream program which is very selective.

 

3). The first professor I mentioned here. Senior proff. in International Relations. 3 courses with him. Confident that will get a descent letter. But not sure if he will fully endorse and support me.

 

Folks, thoughts and comments are really welcomed!