Canadian to USA

[DeafAudi]

Hi there,

 

I apologize if this topic has already been touched on--I wasn't able to find it in the search.

 

Anyways, I am curious as to if it is more competitive for international students applying to US universities compared to US residents.  In Canada, it really does seem like we accept a lot of international students to our universities. I saw somewhere that it is harder to get in and now I am so nervous, haha.

[Canis]

I'm applying to Canadian programs, and they've told me they can admit 1 or maybe 2 international students! So, it's pretty tough to study in Canada actually for a U.S. American!

 

I had one international student in my cohort here, but she left. I suppose with both U.S. and Canada the issue is that it's much more expensive to fund an international student. Good luck though - we both need it!

[TakeruK]

Yes.

 

There may be a lot of reasons, but in the sciences, the main reason is cost. PhD programs that are fully funded means that the department must pay the cost of tuition for the student. For many schools, particularly state/public colleges, the tuition for an International student is much higher than a domestic (US) student. For example, at UC Berkeley (http://registrar.berkeley.edu/Default.aspx?PageID=feesched.html), the fees for a California Resident is $7900/semester while an international student costs $15451/semester !! American citizens can establish California Residency after 1 year so this extra burden only happens once but an International student must always pay the higher fee.

 

At (usually) private schools, tuition is the same for all students, residents or not. They are usually much higher but the schools are better funded and since there is no cost incentive to take a domestic student, there is no disadvantage for International students. 

 

The stats tell the same story. At UC Berkeley, and most UC campuses, about 10% of the graduate student population (in the sciences) are International. At private schools, like the one I am currently in, this fraction is 40%. My Canadian profs correctly predicted that I would have a better chance of getting into a higher ranking private school in California than a lower ranking public one.

 

This happens in Canada too, but the fee differential is much smaller. I think Ontario schools have some of the highest tuition fees, and when I was at Queen's, my graduate fees (as a Canadian) were $7000/year while my international friends paid something like $13000 or $15000 per year. 

[DeafAudi]

Ok, thanks! I did apply to several public schools, but will also be applying to a few private, so hopefully it works out...I am willing to take on the costs if I end up doing what I want to do. 

[DeafAudi]

I also noticed that many schools do not have international tuition, but in state/out of state. How would international tuition make a difference, then?

[TakeruK]

In many schools, out of state = International tuition as well. However, in other schools, there is a pretty big additional fee for International tuition on top of the out-of-state tuition.

 

Or maybe I misunderstood your question, here's another answer! Let's compare 3 students wanting to attend a PhD program at UC Berkeley (since we have the numbers above). Student A is from California, so A pays in-state tuition for every single semester ($8000/semester). Student B is from Washington, let's say, so they pay out of state tuition ($15500/semester) for the first year, then they will have to change their residency and pay in-state for the remaining  years ($8000/semester). Student C is from Canada, say, so they pay $15500/semester every single semester every single year! 

 

I am not sure how many semesters are in Berkeley's year and not sure if you have to pay summer tuition. If we assume 2 semesters per year and a 5 year grad program,

 

Student A costs $80,000.   [in-state]

Student B costs $95,000.   [American, but out-of-state]

Student C costs $155,000. [international]

 

I am simplifying things since some schools will reduce the tuition after candidacy where you don't really take classes anymore. But many other schools do not do this, so I think my numbers are still fair comparison. 

 

Here, we see that over 5 years, the cost difference for Americans is not very large. However, an international student costs about twice as much as an in-state student, and over 60% more than any other American. For a school that do not have a large budget but needs the personnel, they can get two Americans for the cost of one international student. Thus, I think for a school to take an International PhD student, the international student will have to be worth it, and will be held to higher standards than an American.

 

I think this is completely fair because American taxes are subsidizing the Americans' education and as International students, we didn't pay these taxes. And, in Canada, we do the same to International students, except our tuition overall tend to be cheaper so that "twice the cost" might be something like an extra $20,000 to $30,000, not an extra $80,000.

 

And in response to your question about paying the extra cost yourself, it's probably not possible if your program tend to fully fund its own students. If it's a professional program, then that's another story. I can really only speak for the science fields, but the cost of a grad student is much more than our tuition and stipend. The way American profs explain it to me is that they bring in grant money, which they use to pay for our tuition and stipend. However, the University takes a cut of all the incoming grant money, and that is used to pay for overhead costs like our benefits, electricity, office space, and so on. The cut can be pretty large, like 50%. So, for International students like us, our real cost to the profs is easily over $100,000 per year, depending on your tuition and stipend costs. 

 

 

Edit: Oh also, another reason why it would be harder to get in as an International student is because you generally will be competing with other International students. Like Canis mentioned, there is usually some max quota of International student. I'm not sure about US schools, but in many Canadian schools, no single professor can afford to spend that much on a single student all at once. But if every prof only acted for themself, the whole school won't have any international students, which won't be good either! So, at some places, the profs will put some of their grant money each year into a fund which is used to offset the cost of a good international student each year because a good student for the department benefits all. The University itself will usually provide some help too. So, the amount of money in this fund generally sets the limit on how many international students can be admitted and they will select the best international students out of the pool to fill this quota. 

 

However, I think it's true that only the best students tend to apply outside of their own country, since it's a lot of work to move so there is a selection effect. Thus, when you are competing at the International level, your competition is already pre-selected to be better than average students!

Edited January 3, 2014 by TakeruK

[DeafAudi]

Thank you so much for your very informative response!

 

Now I really am worried! The reason why I am applying to the US is because I can't get in in Canada. There are only three schools that offer my program. I did get on a wait-list last year, but I had hoped that I would have a better chance in the US because there are 72 accredited programs with many more seats.

 

My program is a professional program so I'm not sure if what you said about funding is true or not. I think it is rare to be fully funded and most students take a TA or RA assistanceship to offset the costs. I tried to apply to schools that are in less desirable cities or states, like the midwest (everyone wants to live in California! lol). I think I might have to rethink some of the schools I am applying to and apply to a couple more private universities than I had planned.

 

How are you finding studying in the US, coming from Canada? Was it difficult for you to adapt?

Edited January 3, 2014 by DeafAudi

[TakeruK]

Yes, I think your program being a professional one will make a huge difference. Since you won't cost them more money (TA and RA rates are generally the same regardless of where you are from), then you shouldn't have to worry about this factor affecting your chances. Everything I said above about funding only applies to program that fully fund their students (as I also noted above!). So, for you, there may be no real difference between public and private schools in terms of admissions (but it will cost you more!)

 

I was in a similar situation as you -- planetary science is a very small field in Canada, and the specific topic I wanted to cover has only a few professors working on it. In the US, there are many places that do planetary science and there are entire departments covering all aspects of this field, instead of the case in Canada, where we have one professor in a Physics department studying the topic. So, for both of us, I think it makes a lot more sense to apply to the US, because even though chances might be lower (but in your case, this might not even be true), we have a lot more chances, so it's still probably more likely we'll get in a US school.

 

School in the US is different from school in Canada! Not hugely difference but small little things you might take for granted are different. Here are some that threw me off:

1. Canada usually has 12 or 13 week semesters. US schools have 10 week quarters (3 quarters a year) or 16 week semesters (2 per year). I am at a school that does 10 week quarters and boy do they fly by fast!!

2. The US holidays are so weirdly spread out. Rather, they are not spread out, and come in large chunks. 

3. Grades are assigned very differently at most places here. In Canada, my programs always had percentage cutoffs for grades and few programs graded on a curve--if everyone got over 90% then everyone got A+s. In the US, the criteria for a A+ or whatever depends on the class performance! Also, while my programs tend to call 80% = A-, 85%=A, 90%=A+, US programs use 80%=B, 90%=A. So, this makes our grades look inflated but I think they just mean different things. Might work in your favour when you apply though (but they probably are used to Canadian applicants and our system).

4. The drinking age makes a lot of on campus social activities a bit different. In Canada, it's not too strange for a research group to go out for dinner and drinks, including undergrads, but most undergrads here are not legal until senior year, which makes social dynamics (and thus some working dynamics) different. In general, there is more segregation between grads and undergrads.

5. There are such things as "dry campuses" where no alcohol is allowed at all (maybe they exist in Canada? haven't heard of one though)

 

School-wise, I think the change from undergrad-to-graduate student is a much bigger transition than the Canada-US change. 

 

And then there are all the non-school related things like "zee" and dollar bills and weird healthcare, and different words for things (e.g. pencil crayons = colouring pencils in the US)! I think it's a little irrational but one of the hardest changes was going into the grocery store and seeing all different brands, or same brands but different labels. I don't know why, but that the first time I experienced that, it made me feel really homesick and like a foreigner. Sometimes, I will find something that is normally not found in the US (e.g. a Coffee Crisp chocolate bar at this other grocery store chain with a UK parent company) and feel irrationally happy! I don't think these experiences are any different for any foreign student, but sometimes "culture shock" sneaks up on us Canadians because most of the time, everything in America feels a lot like home, but then suddenly, there will be a big reminder that you're not home!

[DeafAudi]

That's too bad about your program not being offered in Canada! I really don't understand why Audiology isn't bigger in Canada, because there is a huge demand for it, especially in Western Canada (80% of professionals work in Ontario, what a surprise! haha). 

 

I agree that there are many, many more chances at US schools, even if we are somewhat at a disadvantage, being international applicants. I was wait listed at UBC last year so I hope that I will at least be competitive for some of these programs. Thanks for the further information about your experience in the US! I'm scared to move but I also look forward to it so much. It will be amazing! I have never done anything like this in my life. 

 

I am also wondering if you had to get a visa? According to the Embassy of the USA in Canada, I would only need to obtain a I-20 certificate from the school I'm enrolled in and pay my SEVIS fee. I would also have to provide proof of funding. So far, I have not provided proof of funding because I don't see how I can know that until I am accepted and able to apply for loans and a student line of credit. I was told that this was fine and would only mean that my admission would be conditional upon receipt of these items. Thanks!

[TakeruK]

About the visa thing--that's correct! We had a very helpful 3-day international orientation here and they even taught us basic Immigration policies that cover all types of foreign students! 

 

It is important to know that there are two things that are often lumped together when people say "travel visa". For US Immigration, they care about two things:

1. "Status". The two possible types are F-1 or J-1. Most people are F-1 status, and the proof of your F-1 status is the I-20 form, issued by your school (DS-2019 form if you are J-1). This form confirms your eligibility to remain in the US to do a certain thing (in our case, go to school). For the I-20 form, you need to prove you have funds to pay for tuition and living expenses for 1 year (the DS-2019 requires proof for the entire length of degree). You are right that you will have to pay the SEVIS fee for US Immigration to process all your paperwork and allow you to be in the US. Your I-20 is always valid for the entire length of degree, but it will expire if you leave your program. You are able to extend your F-1 or J-1 status in some cases. If you start a new program, then you get a new F-1 or J-1 status.

 

2. "Visa". A visa is just "permission to enter the US". A visa generally comes along with a status, since they don't just grant permission to anyone for any reason. A visa may be # of entires limited or it may be time limited, or both. A visa looks like the photo page in your passport. Canadians do not need a visa to enter the US. This is of great help for us, since this means no interviews, and no worrying about valid visas. However, for non-Canadians who might read this, a visa can expire and as long as you already in the US, it's no problem. Remember, visa is only about entering the US, not about being allowed to stay in the US (that's what "status" is). However, if you have an expired visa (and for some people, a visa is only valid for one entry), you need to get a new visa before you can re-enter the US (extra hassle if you leave the US to visit family, go on vacation, or go to a conference). You can never "renew" a visa, you must reapply every time. Luckily for Canadians, we don't have to worry about this!!

 

About proving your funding--yes you wait until after you get accepted. The general process is that you first wait for acceptance and then once you say yes to a school's offer, their International Student Program office will contact you to get biographical information needed for your I-20 form. At the same time, you should be figuring out how to pay for school, setting up loans as needed. You'll provide this information to the school and they will also add it to your I-20 form. Once that's all ready, they will mail you your I-20 form and then you use it to pay the SEVIS fee online. Then you can enter the US and start your program! It's probably a good idea to get all this sorted out about a month before your program starts, but really, the only time crunch is the time it takes between you providing all the info needed for the I-20 (including funding info) to your school and you receiving the physical I-20 in the mail (probably a week-ish to mail it). You might even be able to cross the border without the I-20 (depending on who you get at the border) but then US Immigration will expect you to mail your I-20 to them within 30 days!

[DeafAudi]

Great information, thank you!

 

The other thing I am worried about is getting enough funding. I have heard that the Canadian government loans and even bank student lines of credit are based on Canadian tuition, not American. American tuition is obviously much more expensive. Did you have any issues with this? I can only hope that I will be approved for a decent amount as my parents will not be helping me and I don't have much for savings.

Edited January 5, 2014 by DeafAudi

[Istoleart]

Great information, thank you!

 

The other thing I am worried about is getting enough funding. I have heard that the Canadian government loans and even bank student lines of credit are based on Canadian tuition, not American. American tuition is obviously much more expensive. Did you have any issues with this? I can only hope that I will be approved for a decent amount as my parents will not be helping me and I don't have much for savings.

 

I can't speak for your field but in chemistry, American Universities typically offer tuition waivers/scholarships and a living stipend (18,000 - 27,000$ USD, usually 5 years) if you are applying for PhD. Including the dozens of dream profs I want to work with, the tuition scholarship and 5-year living stipend was an important reason this Canadian wants to head south. You really can't find a better deal. The down side is that we internationals are expected to work at least twice as hard.

[TakeruK]

I can't speak for your field but in chemistry, American Universities typically offer tuition waivers/scholarships and a living stipend (18,000 - 27,000$ USD, usually 5 years) if you are applying for PhD. Including the dozens of dream profs I want to work with, the tuition scholarship and 5-year living stipend was an important reason this Canadian wants to head south. You really can't find a better deal. The down side is that we internationals are expected to work at least twice as hard.

 

The OP is in a professional field, where they will not be funded. It doesn't sound like they will get a tuition waiver, but it does sound like some students can apply for TA and RA ships to get some funding. Also, on F-1 or J-1 status, we are allowed to work on-campus for some jobs (e.g. TAship).

 

Regarding your comment about "can't find a better deal"...actually you can. Even adjusting for various costs of living differences, there are a ton of better deals out there than $27,000/year stipend for science fields. If I had stayed in Canada for my PhD, my stipend would be significantly higher than $27,000/year. In my opinion, there are two main ways people look at grad school stipends. One way is to compare it to undergrad conditions and say "wow, now I get free school and get paid to do it! what a deal!". The other is to compare to what you could be earning if you were not in grad school--for most cases, you are still "paying" to go to grad school. A person working a professional job after undergrad would make more than the average grad student, and 5 years later, would have 5 years of relevant work experience while a PhD would have the degree, be behind in about $100k of income, and have no real world work experience and be working as a postdoc (in the ideal case), making only slightly more than a grad student. 

 

Don't get me wrong--I'm not saying there isn't other value in being a grad student and that we could all get other jobs immediately. Obviously, I still think I am better off as a grad student (and I think most people would be) otherwise I wouldn't be one. But I think it's a bit naive to think of grad school as one of the best paths forward because you get "free school" and a "good" income. I think we should be realistic and face the reality that while we are not living in absolute poverty, grad students in general are underpaid for their qualifications. We are risking some opportunity costs at a chance of a better payout later on.

 

I'm not too worried about making as much money as my peers--I only need enough to live a comfortable life and save up for the future. Most science grad programs do provide enough for a student to live on, but very few provide enough to help the student save for the future, such as retirement, a down-payment on a home, and starting a family. I don't like the overall culture that grad students are expected to be devoted to their work and they should only focus on building their career, not other aspects of their lives.

 

So, while being a grad student is not definitely not a horrible deal or anything, but it's not that great either. Like most life/career paths, it's just another possible path through life.

 

Finally, I am not sure why you say international students are expected to work "twice as hard". I would be very concerned if any place thought that and it would definitely not be a kind of environment I want to be in. 

[thesebrokenwings]

Sorry for bumping up an old thread, but the posts in this thread was very informative and I have additional questions. 

 

I'm a Canadian undergrad in my third year thinking about applying to the States for grad school. I'm not applying for any professional programs, so I presume that if I get accepted, it will be funded. I also understand that I will most likely be applying for the I-20, and I would have to prove that I have enough money to pay for first year tuition + living expenses. In the case that I get funding (a tuition waiver or something of that sort), would I still have to prove that I have enough financial resources to pay for it? I'm currently on government loans for my Canadian undergrad, so I definitely don't have the money...

 

As well, in general, can international PhD students live by on their stipends, or would they have to fork over extra money just to go to school in the States?

[TakeruK]

Sorry for bumping up an old thread, but the posts in this thread was very informative and I have additional questions. 

 

I'm a Canadian undergrad in my third year thinking about applying to the States for grad school. I'm not applying for any professional programs, so I presume that if I get accepted, it will be funded. I also understand that I will most likely be applying for the I-20, and I would have to prove that I have enough money to pay for first year tuition + living expenses. In the case that I get funding (a tuition waiver or something of that sort), would I still have to prove that I have enough financial resources to pay for it? I'm currently on government loans for my Canadian undergrad, so I definitely don't have the money...

 

As well, in general, can international PhD students live by on their stipends, or would they have to fork over extra money just to go to school in the States?

 

Almost all STEM PhD programs in the US (and Canada) will cover all of your tuition plus a living stipend. This is enough to meet the financial requirements for the I-20 in almost all cases  

 

And yes, most students should be able to at least cover basic living costs on their PhD stipends in the sciences! You might not have much leftover or be able to live very well in some cases, but you should be able to count on your program giving you enough to live on. If their offer isn't going to be enough, I'd personally seriously reconsider taking their offer since there are plenty of other programs out there that will pay you more.

[DeleteMePlease]

Sorry for bumping up an old thread, but the posts in this thread was very informative and I have additional questions. 

 

I'm a Canadian undergrad in my third year thinking about applying to the States for grad school. I'm not applying for any professional programs, so I presume that if I get accepted, it will be funded. I also understand that I will most likely be applying for the I-20, and I would have to prove that I have enough money to pay for first year tuition + living expenses. In the case that I get funding (a tuition waiver or something of that sort), would I still have to prove that I have enough financial resources to pay for it? I'm currently on government loans for my Canadian undergrad, so I definitely don't have the money...

 

As well, in general, can international PhD students live by on their stipends, or would they have to fork over extra money just to go to school in the States?

 

You don't apply for an I-20. It is just issued by your university. You apply for your visa (F-1 or J-1) and the I-20 is one of the requirements for this visa. If your I-20 says that you are fully funded, then you usually don't have to show any supporting documents. The visa is the permit to cross the border and the I-20 is the document that permits you to stay in the US.

 

Also, afaik people from Canada don't even need to apply for a visa and just need the I-20 but I could be wrong here.

Edited April 20, 2014 by GermanStudent

[spec789]

You don't apply for an I-20. It is just issued by your university. You apply for your visa (F-1 or J-1) and the I-20 is one of the requirements for this visa. If your I-20 says that you are fully funded, then you usually don't have to show any supporting documents. The visa is the permit to cross the border and the I-20 is the document that permits you to stay in the US.

Also, afaik people from Canada don't even need to apply for a visa and just need the I-20 but I could be wrong here.

You are correct. Canada has a special agreement with the US in which Canadians do not require a visa prior to entering. You are issued F-1 status when you are at the border. The I-20 is the only document that needs to be presented (besides your passport of course). Edited April 20, 2014 by spec789

[TakeruK]

You are correct. Canada has a special agreement with the US in which Canadians do not require a visa prior to entering. You are issued F-1 status when you are at the border. The I-20 is the only document that needs to be presented (besides your passport of course).

 

Just to clarify, the only thing a Canadian really must have at the border is the I-20, but it is highly recommended to bring supporting documents such as the offer letter from the school (with funding confirmation), proof of SEVIS fee paid (even though this should be in their system), marriage certificate (if a spouse is joining you) etc. Ultimately, it's up to the border agent to issue F-1/F-2 status and while complications are rare, it's best to be prepared! Since you are probably going to take these other important documents with you anyways, make sure they are packed in your carry-on (if you are flying) or in an easily accessible place (if you are crossing by land).

 

Also, since it's up to the agent, you might be able to enter the US with some missing documents on the condition that you submit them within 30 days. For example, my school's international office has said that if you forget your I-20 when traveling (or forget your travel signature), it's likely you will still be allowed to enter. But this is probably more likely to be true if it's not your first crossing on this particular I-20/F-1 status.

[Kermit]

I'm wondering how much everyone's I-20 is and if you absolutely have to match that amount. My form from CU Boulder says the total number for expense for a student without dependants is $44,743, which seems a lot higher than other people are posting. Do i need to show the total 44K or can I just cover the tuition and fees.

 

My school has broken it down:

tuition and fees... $29,259

Living expenses... $12,370

Books and supplies..$1800

Personal expenses.. $1,314

 

However I don't think this is realistic. I usually don't buy my school books, just find them online or use the library

s copy, plus the tuition on the cu form is way more than my department told me. How do I get around this?

[DeleteMePlease]

Maybe Fees includes other expenses aswell? E.g. public transportation.

[TakeruK]

I'm wondering how much everyone's I-20 is and if you absolutely have to match that amount. My form from CU Boulder says the total number for expense for a student without dependants is $44,743, which seems a lot higher than other people are posting. Do i need to show the total 44K or can I just cover the tuition and fees.

 

My school has broken it down:

tuition and fees... $29,259

Living expenses... $12,370

Books and supplies..$1800

Personal expenses.. $1,314

 

However I don't think this is realistic. I usually don't buy my school books, just find them online or use the library

s copy, plus the tuition on the cu form is way more than my department told me. How do I get around this?

 

This is an accurate breakdown. Unfortunately, for the I-20, they usually use some "averaged" cost so the textbook number is usually way too high! However, $2000 out of $44.7k isn't a big difference! You will definitely need to show support for approximately $44.7k.

 

But if you think there is a mistake for tuition, you should talk to your department to make sure there isn't a mistake! Sometimes the department will list the 9 month tuition only, or leave out the fees, or they only listed the domestic tuition! Definitely get it clarified, but needing to show costs for about $40k-$50k is a normal amount. 

 

Edit: Are you getting any funding from the school? If you are going to work as a TA or any kind of RA, that counts towards your funding support too! 

 

And, a big part of fees is sometimes student health insurance. It could be several thousand dollars per year, depending on whether your TA/RA work covers this benefit or not. For non-American students, we pretty much have to take this insurance though, unless you are covered by someone else's plan, somehow!

Edited April 21, 2014 by TakeruK