Women applicants?

[murial]

The apparent "dearth" of women in philosophy echoes on this forum as well? 

[bar_scene_gambler]

I wouldn't say a dearth, per se, but there are a handful of women around here (just like the amount of women in philosophy I guess)

[catwoman15]

HEY!!

 

I'm a philosopher and a lady. I'm not an applicant, but I was (once upon a time). Also, I'd say there is a dearth of women in philosophy, considering that only 15% of tenured and tenure track faculty in philosophy are women (and that's reflected in the participants on this forum, when I brought up an issue of gender in another thread, it was promptly decided that such a problem was not philosophical and wasn't relevant to philosophy).

 

Anyhow, I'm a woman and I think I may be the only one around here (unless you're one too, then that makes two). If you wanna chat I'm more than happy to!

 

ETA: I have a lot of underrepresented group specific information about graduate studies (especially funding) which I'm happy to talk about. If you want to, I'm happy to send it along.

Edited January 18, 2014 by catwoman15

[MattDest]

I wouldn't say a dearth, per se, but there are a handful of women around here (just like the amount of women in philosophy I guess)

 

It's certainly a dearth, and it's certainly a widespread problem in philosophy. Luckily, programs like this one from UCSD are working to change it. 

[jjwaq]

I think there is a dearth of women, as well, and I'm hoping to land at a grad program that already has a more equal gender balance. Strong women in graduate philosophy seminars contribute more than men, I think--they give their share of philosophical insights, and are better able than men to criticize the inevitable pride and posturing that arises among males when discussions devolve into showing off.

[murial]

Hi! Thanks a lot for your encouraging reply. I'm a woman applicant from India. I have a B.A. Honours, M.A. and MPhil degree in philosophy. Slightly intimidated by the application procedure, as i have absolutely nobody to consult with. 7 years of studying philosophy in india, i haven't come across a single person who has applied abroad (or maybe a few did, but none ever shares their experiences). But I'm rapidly coming to terms with the process. I just finished applying to The New School - they have a separate support publication group for women in philosophy. 

[jjwaq]

Murial, I wish I could be of more help but unfortunately don't have any experience with international applications. Careful with the New School, though, as I think the funding often isn't great.

[murial]

Yes there might not be a dearth, per se, but there's definitely a relative dearth, when compared to other disciplines. 

[catwoman15]

I think there is a dearth of women, as well, and I'm hoping to land at a grad program that already has a more equal gender balance. Strong women in graduate philosophy seminars contribute more than men, I think--they give their share of philosophical insights, and are better able than men to criticize the inevitable pride and posturing that arises among males when discussions devolve into showing off.

 

 

I know this is meant well, but it strikes me in the wrong way. It's a weird generalization about women that doesn't seem accurate. I'm in a program with an alright gender balance, but I still watch men steamroll women in seminar on the regular. I also watch women clam up and be quiet, then after class say brilliant things. 

 

Leaving it up to "strong women" to put men in their place is putting the onus on the wrong party. 

[jjwaq]

It's true that it isn't the responsibility of women, and it's unfortunate that women have to deal with it.

[bar_scene_gambler]

Sorry my dumb morning brain though dearth meant excess. I recant. There is definitely a dearth of women philosophers, both here and in academia. 

[catwoman15]

Yeah, I'm sorry I was so quick to jump on it (you seem like a thoughtful person, and men who want to work with women and think women's contributions are valuable are a good thing, not at all a bad thing), I'm just a tad sensitive over the issue because I am one of those strong personalitied women. I have the reputation of being a bitch that goes along with it, rather than the reputation of being assertive, confident and smart.

[catwoman15]

Hi! Thanks a lot for your encouraging reply. I'm a woman applicant from India. I have a B.A. Honours, M.A. and MPhil degree in philosophy. Slightly intimidated by the application procedure, as i have absolutely nobody to consult with. 7 years of studying philosophy in india, i haven't come across a single person who has applied abroad (or maybe a few did, but none ever shares their experiences). But I'm rapidly coming to terms with the process. I just finished applying to The New School - they have a separate support publication group for women in philosophy. 

 

You might consider a Fulbright application (which I admittedly don't know much about), or a predoctoral ford fellowship (if you're a permanent resident of the US). Both of these programs have already had deadlines this year, but you could apply for a predoctoral ford in the fall (even if you're already attending a program).

[jjwaq]

No worries. The difference between bitch and assertive-confident-smart is due to the perceiver, not to the one being perceived. Men have a choice in how they choose to interact with the women in their departments, and if their incorrect choices have led them to perceive women as bitches rather than valuable contributors, then the fault is with these men and the women shouldn't have to apologize for anything. The best friend I made in my MA program was one of the women who stay quiet in class, and we both wish that things were different in philosophy.

Edited January 18, 2014 by jjwaq

[MattDest]

No worries. The difference between bitch and assertive-confident-smart is due to the perceiver, not to the one being perceived. Men have a choice in how they choose to interact with the women in their departments, and if their incorrect choices have led them to perceive women as bitches rather than valuable contributors, then the fault is with these men and the women shouldn't have to apologize for anything. The best friend I made in my MA program was one of the women who stay quiet in class, and we both wish that things were different in philosophy.

 

Hmmm, I don't know about this. There are assholes of each sex, and they are assholes irrespective of any qualities of any particular perceiver. I think the problem in philosophy (and generally), is that assertive women who aren't assholes tend to get labeled as assholes by prejudiced parties (which include both men and women - I think). Many of these prejudiced parties have false beliefs about how women ought to behave, and unfairly label certain behaviors as "asshole" when they should be labeling them as "assertive". This is a problem that's related to sexism in philosophy, but I don't think that every asshole that happens to be a women is just a victim of this prejudice either. 

 

Hopefully this came out right, it's very difficult to talk about these issues in a largely anonymized internet forum. 

[catwoman15]

Hmmm, I don't know about this. There are assholes of each sex, and they are assholes irrespective of any qualities of any particular perceiver. I think the problem in philosophy (and generally), is that assertive women who aren't assholes tend to get labeled as assholes by prejudiced parties (which include both men and women - I think). Many of these prejudiced parties have false beliefs about how women ought to behave, and unfairly label certain behaviors as "asshole" when they should be labeling them as "assertive". This is a problem that's related to sexism in philosophy, but I don't think that every asshole that happens to be a women is just a victim of this prejudice either. 

 

Hopefully this came out right, it's very difficult to talk about these issues in a largely anonymized internet forum. 

 

 

+1 This seems totally right. I've known many women who were assholes, just general jerks. I've also known many men who are just general jerks. 

 

But, having a reputation for being a bitch as a woman usually means that you refused to be talked down to, talked over, and know your place. It's hard to tell the difference between jerk and assertive if you don't know the person. I just tend to give the benefit of the doubt to women who people think are jerks, so that I can assess whether they are really jerks, or are just more assertive than 'women should be'. Sometimes they're jerks. Sometimes they just refuse to know their role.

[MattDest]

+1 This seems totally right. I've known many women who were assholes, just general jerks. I've also known many men who are just general jerks. 

 

But, having a reputation for being a bitch as a woman usually means that you refused to be talked down to, talked over, and know your place. It's hard to tell the difference between jerk and assertive if you don't know the person. I just tend to give the benefit of the doubt to women who people think are jerks, so that I can assess whether they are really jerks, or are just more assertive than 'women should be'. Sometimes they're jerks. Sometimes they just refuse to know their role.

 

Agreed. The other side of this problem is that many men who are assholes fail to get labeled as such because their behavior is just excused as "eccentric" or " confident". Women get a raw deal. 

[shelbyelisha]

Lady philosophy applicant, here! Glad to see my fellow male philosophers are so supportive

[murial]

Clearly, women are receiving quite a lot of attention, support and encouragement in academic philosophy circles etc. One wonders what then is the real real reason thats keeping the women to men ratio in philosophy so stunted?

[bar_scene_gambler]

Lady philosophy applicant, here! Glad to see my fellow male philosophers are so supportive

Of course. I've never met a woman (well, maybe I've met one woman, but she was the rotten apple of the bunch) who wasn't at the very least my equal (and many I've met do far better work than I). I don't think it's an uncommon mindset within our generation of philosophers.

 

Clearly, women are receiving quite a lot of attention, support and encouragement in academic philosophy circles etc. One wonders what then is the real real reason thats keeping the women to men ratio in philosophy so stunted?

My guess is that it's a combination of things. For one, the stunted ratio is probably foreboding in and of itself. It probably serves to scare many women away, towards more accepting fields. Another thing is probably that many institutions are still "good-old-boy clubs", so to speak. I would hazard a guess and say that many Ivy League and private institutions have environments which change much slower than others (I know my university is that way). Of course, there are bound to be a plethora of other factors, but I'm sure they at least contribute in some meaningful way to the stunted male:female ratio.

[catwoman15]

Of course. I've never met a woman (well, maybe I've met one woman, but she was the rotten apple of the bunch) who wasn't at the very least my equal (and many I've met do far better work than I). I don't think it's an uncommon mindset within our generation of philosophers.

 

My guess is that it's a combination of things. For one, the stunted ratio is probably foreboding in and of itself. It probably serves to scare many women away, towards more accepting fields. Another thing is probably that many institutions are still "good-old-boy clubs", so to speak. I would hazard a guess and say that many Ivy League and private institutions have environments which change much slower than others (I know my university is that way). Of course, there are bound to be a plethora of other factors, but I'm sure they at least contribute in some meaningful way to the stunted male:female ratio.

 

It isn't uncommon for younger generations in philosophy to be more, say, 'open minded.' But this isn't what controls the discipline. The discipline, as a whole, is overwhelmingly gate-kept by 50-70 year old men. Those who rose in the philosophical ranks quite a bit before our time. They are on admissions committees, hiring committees, conference organizers and chairing committees, and fellowship committees. Someone did a survey of the Leiter Report and noted that there is a correlation between women on faculty and Leiter Ranking, the higher ranked your program, the fewer women on faculty you have. This is not causation, but it is an interesting correlation, but I hesitate to provide reasons other than a suspicion that it has to do with the sexism of the discipline as a whole.

 

Second, it's nice to think of yourself as open minded and sort of 'liberal' with regard to the way you assess people. This, though, actually has nothing to do with combating implicit bias. In fact, people who think they are unbiased are often those with the greatest biases (and members of underrepresented groups themselves have negative biases about the groups of which they are a part).

 

Philosophy's underrepresentation problem is complicated and can't necessarily be tied to any one factor, but it is probably more like a perfect storm of factors (both social and institutional) that combine to make it difficult for women and people of color to succeed in the discipline. 

 

(Also, I have links to a lot of studies and papers on the topic, if anyone wants to read them.)

[murial]

It's shocking if the said biases are offered by such distinguished old philosophers. It's the prime vocation of philosophy to question, introspect and abandon prejudices. I guess they aren't philosophers then, just great grand SCHOLARS of philosophy. 

Edited January 18, 2014 by murial

[Cottagecheeseman]

I read somewhere in a link from Leiterreports that I can't find now that the gender difference in philosophy begins at the undergraduate level, despite women outnumbering men in the undergraduate setting, which could explain why there are so few women in grad school and hence the profession in general. Something about philosophy, either the atmosphere, the types of people who generally take, the study itself, (who knows???? No seriously do you know? I want to know!) turns off women early on, which keeps them from becoming philosophy majors and hence philosophy professors.

But, I do have to say that though philosophy compared to humanities is very non-gender balanced, it is more on par with the hard sciences (physics, maths, chemistry) in terms of male to female ratio. I don't know why this is so. I hope we find out, but I just want to say this isn't just a problem in philosophy, and it's probably not a problem just because of male sexism in the profession, because though there still is a biased towards men in philosophy, it's definitely not even close to what it has been.

[murial]

Do you think the general atmosphere in routine philosophy seminars, paper presentations etc is more hostile than it is in any other discipline? Since philosophy chiefly progresses by a ruthless tearing apart of arguments etc..could it be that that just intimidates women more than anything else?

[catwoman15]

I read somewhere in a link from Leiterreports that I can't find now that the gender difference in philosophy begins at the undergraduate level, despite women outnumbering men in the undergraduate setting, which could explain why there are so few women in grad school and hence the profession in general. Something about philosophy, either the atmosphere, the types of people who generally take, the study itself, (who knows???? No seriously do you know? I want to know!) turns off women early on, which keeps them from becoming philosophy majors and hence philosophy professors.

 

There was a study done on it ( here: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1527-2001.2012.01306.x/abstract) that was published in hypatia. Showing that the biggest drop off of women is between taking intro classes and majoring. But, the study doesn't control for the fact that a lot of people take intro classes to try something out, and have already decided to major in something else. The study also found that the drop is mitigated by the presence of more women on faculty in a department.