HKS worth $130K in debt?

[jduds]

I think younglions point is that for someone going into public service, it's unreasonable to think that you'll make enough money to justify monthly loan payments of $1000+.

vannik, I think you're an engineer. So it's reasonable to think that you can make $100K+ a year. Taking out $100K+ in loans is not unreasonable if you're going to a top-tier business, medical, or law school since your expected salary upon graduate will likely end up being about 10-15% of your loan payment (that's the recommended amount). But if you're going into public service, taking out $100K in loan is just not as reasonable. The payments will be about 25-30% of your expected income, and while you can spread the timeline of your payments, the fact that you do have to pay such a huge loan, for such a long time will likely affect what kind of job you take, where you end up living, and even how many kids you plan to have. At the end of the day, it's an individual choice. And while it might not make sense for one person, for someone else it might be worth it.

[younglions]

vannik - I recognized that English is your second language... I'm not faulting you for lacking clarity. Like I said, your English is quite good for a non-native speaker. However, the arrogance is not appreciated.

You're correct on your discussion in regards to high income earners. Perhaps government/non-profit workers are highly paid in Korea, but in the United States they are not. The salaries of your friends working in the pharmaceutical industry have very little relevance to anybody interested in pursuing a career related to public policy.

People deciding not to go to Harvard because $130k in debt is too much are not engaging in "very bad mathematics," rather they are engaging in REALITY based mathematics.

EDIT: In response Jordan+Airforce1 - Two people, myself included, misinterpreted vannik's posts because of lack of clarity in language. I was merely pointing out that the misunderstandings were due to the lack of shared native language. For me, it was quite easy to recognize vannik's english as being non-native. In retrospect, "poor mastery of english" was too harsh of language. Sorry for that vannik.

[rising_star]

I don't think vannik's English had much to do with it. I understood what s/he was saying the first go-around. It really is a matter of doing math accurately, something this thread had been sorely lacking.

[younglions]

rising_star - the question remains, why are we doing math on 100-200k salaries?

[rising_star]

Because some people make that, depending on where they work? I'm not in government and I don't really care what salaries you all want to do the math on. You're all making guesses without knowing where exactly the OP wants to work after finishing the degree. So, in that sense, what difference does it make if one person uses a $60K salary and someone else uses $100K?

[vannik]

Suppose you take out 130k @ 8.5 percent over 10 years. Your monthly payments would be about 1600. The minimum recommended salary to do that is in the neighborhood of 242k. Maybe you can live frugally and do much better than that, but it's a rough estimate.

Use this: http://www.mappingyourfuture.org/paying ... ulator.htm

Right. Loan re-payment has a finite lifetime--much shorter than one's career. How much does someone with an MPP typically make? If you aren't going to make 200k a year, you theoretically can't afford a 130k loan. Simple as that. Do what you want, but you should learn from current events: don't take out loans you can't afford!

SIPA is a very good school as well, and has a strong alumni network. A degree from there will not be as prestigious as Harvard's, but will certainly be notable and get you excellent positions.

And as already mentioned, $130,000 in debt is a lot especially if you don't plan to make $200K+ to pay off that hefty monthly bill. Also, are you even sure that you can get that much in loans? Stafford loans cap out at $20,500 a year for graduate students, and assuming that $130,000 bill is evenly split between two years, that will leave you with an extra $44,500 to finance each year -- either through private loans (if you have the credit to do so, or a creditworthy cosigner) or whatever other means.

Personally, I would head towards the money.

This is why I thought it was a good idea to say something. You had three posts saying that one must make $200,000 a year to pay $1,600 a month back on a $130,000 loan and live comfortably. That is saying that one must take home $7,800 a month after taxes to live comfortably. Nowhere in this post did someone mention that the career was going to be making a specific value. I just assumed if the number of $242,000 was being thrown around, $100,000 might not be out of the question. My point was to demonstrate how these three posts were incredibly inaccurate and that one can live comfortably with that amount of student loan debt and be taking home a salary of $100,000, which happens to be almost 60% less than the value first used to try to sway the judgment of the OP.

[math123]

I beg your pardon, but we aren't pulling these numbers out of our asses--as you seem to be doing. Loan agencies recommend having a 200k salary in order to justify taking out 130k in loans. End of story. If you choose not to head their advice, I hope you have good reason. I don't see how you find that so unreasonable.

[math123]

I would also like to add that the apparent blase attitude toward loan burden is highly problematic. We are in this mess today partly due to people who don't understand not biting off more than you can chew. Do whatever you want, but don't expect to be bailed out.

[rising_star]

I beg your pardon, but we aren't pulling these numbers out of our asses--as you seem to be doing. Loan agencies recommend having a 200k salary in order to justify taking out 130k in loans. End of story. If you choose not to head their advice, I hope you have good reason. I don't see how you find that so unreasonable.

So what you seem to be saying is that vannik's calculations based on the $100K salary are wrong. And yet, you haven't refuted his (or her) math. Just because loan agencies recommend something does not make it necessary, which I believe is what vannik has been trying to show by showing how the payments would affect the take-home pay of someone NOT making $242K/year.

P.S. Watch your language, math123 (and everyone else). No more borderline racist remarks and no insults.

[math123]

P.S. Watch your language, math123 (and everyone else). No more borderline racist remarks and no insults.

I'm insulted. I wasn't even involved in the (reasonable) critique of his/her English ability. How dare you use my name and "racist" in the same line.

[math123]

So what you seem to be saying is that vannik's calculations based on the $100K salary are wrong. And yet, you haven't refuted his (or her) math. Just because loan agencies recommend something does not make it necessary, which I believe is what vannik has been trying to show by showing how the payments would affect the take-home pay of someone NOT making $242K/year.

Ugh, why do I even bother. My fuckin' taxes are bailing out people like you and vannik who believe in whatever they want to believe.

[TulipOHare]

Racist?! I saw posts criticizing vannik's English, but hell -- I don't speak very good Turkish. If someone who spoke Turkish listened to me and said "Hey girl, your Turkish sucks," are they being racist?

[younglions]

I just want to say that it wasn't my intention to criticize vannik's English as I did. I was merely attempting to explain the source of a disagreement--30% of it was slightly imperfect wording on vannik's behalf, and 70% of it was poor reading comprehension at 3 a.m. on my behalf. I've since deleted the comment and apologized to vannik.

Vannik's math is accurate, but probably not relevant to the original poster. If a person is interested in going to HKS, s/he is likely interested in a career in public service. Generally public service careers don't pay well and prestige doesn't matter nearly as much as it does in a discipline like business or law. That 130K in debt likely won't appreciably augment a HKS graduate's salary, despite the reality that HKS grads are among the best prepared in the discipline.

As someone also interested in a public service career, I'm acutely aware of the deleterious effects a heavy debt load can have on the borrower interested in the field. My main concern wasn't having to pay $1,300 a month for a student loan bill--I'm sure I could find a job after graduating from a place like Harvard to cover that--but the career sacrifices that the heavy debt load would necessitate. I'm interested in Int. Development, and with massive debt there is no way I could work in the field (that is, work locally in Swaziland, Guatemala, etc.) after graduating. Most of those positions pay $35k-45k a year, and some are even unpaid.

[glasses]

Racist?!

Borderline racist, yes. Reading someone's faulty English and assuming that person is an international student is, at the very least, "culturally insensitive"--particularly since plenty of non-international students think that numbers can legitimately stand in for words, which is hardly an example of "good English." I've seen native English speakers who can barely string a sentence together. On the flip side, plenty of "non-natives" are perhaps less "easy to recognize"--the assumption that "poor English" means "not a native speaker" is infuriating and belittling. There are legitimate points to be made about the difficulty of learning to speak English as a second language--but people may want to be wary about drawing so-called "obvious" connections. Many, many people are ESL, and I would bet money--maybe even 130 K, which I distinctly do not have!--that you can't pick all of them out of a crowd of text. So, yes, it is borderline racist that younglions found it "quite easy to recognize vannik's english as being non-native." I'm not arguing that vannik had excellent English, or that it's racist to criticize anyone's language proficiency (snotty, maybe, but not racist): the other assumptions that sunk the ship.

And for the love of god, math123, please stop acting like you can fix, are fixing, or even know how to fix the state of the economy single-handedly.

[teaganc]

Borderline racist, yes. Reading someone's faulty English and assuming that person is an international student is, at the very least, "culturally insensitive"--particularly since plenty of non-international students think that numbers can legitimately stand in for words, which is hardly an example of "good English." I've seen native English speakers who can barely string a sentence together. On the flip side, plenty of "non-natives" are perhaps less "easy to recognize"--the assumption that "poor English" means "not a native speaker" is infuriating and belittling.

In general, glasses, I like you--as much as I can like any faceless internet user--and obviously you feel passionately about it, so I hesitate to comment at all; however, I really think that sometimes this website and its accusations of racism are a little absurd. Assuming that everyone who types on a message board without perfect grammar is international is, in fact, foolish, but honestly, non-native English speakers are reasonably easy to recognize, especially if you have experience with ESL. I've taught ESL students before and the mistakes that they make are very distinct--in fact, I can often identify what the student's native language is by the mistakes that they make in their English, if I have some knowledge of the native language. Native speakers make typos, or have homonym spelling issues, or make more common mistakes like spelling ridiculous "rediculous" and putting commas in crazy places. Non-native speakers often place English words into the grammatical structure of their native language, or have issues with pronouns. Obviously there are many more examples of both, but suffice to say, the types of mistakes are distinct. Thus while "poor English" does not instantly denote an international student, certain types of mistakes can make the author identifiable as an international student. To argue that such identification is racist takes political correctness to Zizekian level and strips it of meaning. And last I checked, "international" is hardly a race, nor is it a pejorative.

[younglions]

Borderline racist, yes. Reading someone's faulty English and assuming that person is an international student is, at the very least, "culturally insensitive"--particularly since plenty of non-international students think that numbers can legitimately stand in for words, which is hardly an example of "good English." I've seen native English speakers who can barely string a sentence together. On the flip side, plenty of "non-natives" are perhaps less "easy to recognize"--the assumption that "poor English" means "not a native speaker" is infuriating and belittling. There are legitimate points to be made about the difficulty of learning to speak English as a second language--but people may want to be wary about drawing so-called "obvious" connections. Many, many people are ESL, and I would bet money--maybe even 130 K, which I distinctly do not have!--that you can't pick all of them out of a crowd of text. So, yes, it is borderline racist that younglions found it "quite easy to recognize vannik's english as being non-native." I'm not arguing that vannik had excellent English, or that it's racist to criticize anyone's language proficiency (snotty, maybe, but not racist): the other assumptions that sunk the ship.

And for the love of god, math123, please stop acting like you can fix, are fixing, or even know how to fix the state of the economy single-handedly.

Alright, this is getting ridiculous. I've already admitted I went too far with my message and deleted it. Vannik was being outright arrogant with his/her insistence that some of us couldn't understand the math (making demeaning comments at least two times). In a bad mood, I impetuously responded that maybe it wasn't the math we couldn't understand, but his/her language, and that that was the source of our disagreements. It was snotty (not racist) and it was a mistake. I admitted I was wrong, and I apologized.

Glasses - Have you ever spent time outside an English-speaking country? It's an honest question. I haven't lived anywhere where English is spoken for more than three years, and in the process, I've gotten to know quite closely a lot of friends and coworkers who are learning the language. The differences between poor native speakers and ESL speakers are usually discernible. I made an observation, and I was correct.

How about we get back to the real issue here--whether or not HKS is worth the debt.

[slowbro]

Going back to debt repayment for a moment, I took another look at the student loan calculator that math123 posted and see that it recommends that "your student loan payment be less than 8 percent of your gross income." That's an arbitrary and unexplained percentage, though, which doesn't take into account an individual's income and living expenses. If you can live below your means and devote a larger percentage of your income to paying student loans, then by all means do so; you'll save a large amount on interest.

And speaking of interest, limiting yourself to 8% when you can very comfortably pay more only benefits the student loan companies. A cynic may argue that it explains why the calculator, which is on a site sponsored by "student loan guaranty agencies," adopts such a one-size-fits-all approach to repaying debt. This ties in nicely with rising_star's earlier point that you can't accept advice from loan companies uncritically.

[glasses]

In general, glasses, I like you--as much as I can like any faceless internet user--and obviously you feel passionately about it, so I hesitate to comment at all; however, I really think that sometimes this website and its accusations of racism are a little absurd. Assuming that everyone who types on a message board without perfect grammar is international is, in fact, foolish, but honestly, non-native English speakers are reasonably easy to recognize, especially if you have experience with ESL. I've taught ESL students before and the mistakes that they make are very distinct--in fact, I can often identify what the student's native language is by the mistakes that they make in their English, if I have some knowledge of the native language. Native speakers make typos, or have homonym spelling issues, or make more common mistakes like spelling ridiculous "rediculous" and putting commas in crazy places. Non-native speakers often place English words into the grammatical structure of their native language, or have issues with pronouns. Obviously there are many more examples of both, but suffice to say, the types of mistakes are distinct. Thus while "poor English" does not instantly denote an international student, certain types of mistakes can make the author identifiable as an international student. To argue that such identification is racist takes political correctness to Zizekian level and strips it of meaning. And last I checked, "international" is hardly a race, nor is it a pejorative.

Teaganc, this is fair. From younglion's initial statement, I hadn't gotten the sense that he or she had actually considered the differences between mistakes associated between ESL speakers and native speakers. On the contrary, to me it read as a kind of gut this-guy-can't-speak-English-he-must-not-be-"from here" reaction: in that context I thought that A) he was using the word "international" as a pejorative, and that it was strangely tied to race--which also bothered me, since "native English speaker" is hardly a race, either--or at the very least nationality-based "otherness." Not to mention, since the OP's place of residence or origin weren't remotely relevant to the actual conversation (from which I've meandered significantly, too, I admit), I found vannik's willingness to "go there" distasteful and hasty. When it comes to matters of race, I do have a tendency to be a bit more Zizekian than I would be in any other universe, and I do apologize for that; but, I think that the phrasing and the irrelevance of younglion's post opened itself to the sort of reaction that I had. It didn't quite reek of thoughtfulness, or even thoughtoutness.

Evidently, younglions put more thought into it than I perceived, and I appreciate that.

Glasses - Have you ever spent time outside an English-speaking country? It's an honest question. I haven't lived anywhere where English is spoken for more than three years, and in the process, I've gotten to know quite closely a lot of friends and coworkers who are learning the language. The differences between poor native speakers and ESL speakers are usually discernible. I made an observation, and I was correct.

To your question: yes, I have.

[liszt85]

I'm insulted. I wasn't even involved in the (reasonable) critique of his/her English ability. How dare you use my name and "racist" in the same line.

With great power comes... er.. great power!

Who can predict my native language? Teaganc? Lets play! You can maybe give me grammatically incorrect sentences and ask me to identify the mistake(s) in them. A game almost like "20 questions", what say? All that you said about non-native English speakers did not in the least offend non-native English speakers like myself. In fact, the only time I've been offended by comments on these forums was when somebody commented that I probably lacked the skills to succeed at grad school, and I found that "borderline racist" (as all that followed from a question that I had asked based on some unique circumstances I'd been in and due to very important cultural reasons)!

I however want to check how good your ability to guess is. Do not cheat, I've posted about my nationality various times in these forums, if you've seen one of those posts, the game ends before it has begun.

[rising_star]

I'm insulted. I wasn't even involved in the (reasonable) critique of his/her English ability. How dare you use my name and "racist" in the same line.

The "P.S." was directed at everyone, not just you. I thought that was pretty clear since I said that everyone should watch their language. Specifically, you were mentioned because you wrote "vannik, your writing is borderline nonsense" without actually explaining why or refuting what vannik said. That is incredibly rude and inappropriate here. Younglion wasn't named because s/he already apologized. If you have a problem, take it up with administration.

Ugh, why do I even bother. My fuckin' taxes are bailing out people like you and vannik who believe in whatever they want to believe.

Nobody's taxes are bailing out anyone with student loans unless you mean that there are people with student loans who are benefiting from government programs like WIC, food stamps, and welfare. That said, there are plenty of people without student loans or mortgages benefiting from those programs too. Why not do some research on what happens with student loans (and how they can never be discharged in bankruptcy, for example) before getting on a high horse that says that if you don't do exactly what the loan companies say, you will obviously default. Alternately, if you want to continue to tout that line, find some facts/statistics/evidence to back it up. I doubt you'll find any other than what the loan companies themselves put out.

Going back to debt repayment for a moment, I took another look at the student loan calculator that math123 posted and see that it recommends that "your student loan payment be less than 8 percent of your gross income." That's an arbitrary and unexplained percentage, though, which doesn't take into account an individual's income and living expenses. If you can live below your means and devote a larger percentage of your income to paying student loans, then by all means do so; you'll save a large amount on interest.

And speaking of interest, limiting yourself to 8% when you can very comfortably pay more only benefits the student loan companies. A cynic may argue that it explains why the calculator, which is on a site sponsored by "student loan guaranty agencies," adopts such a one-size-fits-all approach to repaying debt. This ties in nicely with rising_star's earlier point that you can't accept advice from loan companies uncritically.

I think slowbro (hey, fancy seeing you here!) makes an excellent point. The 8% thing is arbitrary. There are many people that can put more than 8% of their income towards their student loan payment. Who are we to say that post-graduation the OP couldn't?

The OP may want to check out this website: http://www.ed.gov/offices/OSFAP/DirectLoan/calc.html. It gives repayment amounts for federal loans based on different payment schedules without telling you how much you have to earn. Then you can use math like vannik was suggesting to figure out how much you would need to earn to live comfortably.

[teaganc]

Who can predict my native language? Teaganc? Lets play! You can maybe give me grammatically incorrect sentences and ask me to identify the mistake(s) in them. A game almost like "20 questions", what say? All that you said about non-native English speakers did not in the least offend non-native English speakers like myself. In fact, the only time I've been offended by comments on these forums was when somebody commented that I probably lacked the skills to succeed at grad school, and I found that "borderline racist" (as all that followed from a question that I had asked based on some unique circumstances I'd been in and due to very important cultural reasons)!

I however want to check how good your ability to guess is. Do not cheat, I've posted about my nationality various times in these forums, if you've seen one of those posts, the game ends before it has begun.

Actually, I think I remember where you are from other posts, so I'm not sure I can play. And anyway, I don't have any experience with the official language there, so I'm not sure I could pick out places where your native grammatical structure bled through to your English.

[liszt85]

Actually, I think I remember where you are from other posts,

Shouldn't you put in an extra "from" ? This is ok too, but I think you may have meant to put in an extra "from". We had a discussion on such repeated word structures in the linguistics forum. Look it up, it is interesting!

[teaganc]

Shouldn't you put in an extra "from" ? This is ok too, but I think you may have meant to put in an extra "from". We had a discussion on such repeated word structures in the linguistics forum. Look it up, it is interesting!

Ah, but you haven't come to the US yet, so you are still there. Hence, "where you are."

[liszt85]

Ah, but you haven't come to the US yet, so you are still there. Hence, "where you are."

Yea, I got that, but like I said, you may have meant to put in that extra "from". Ah ditch, who cares.

About what you said about Ohio, those things (whatever they are) may be true about Cincinnati or Cleveland or wherever.. please tell me Columbus is alright :|

[DefinitelyMaybe]

I would also like to add that the apparent blase attitude toward loan burden is highly problematic. We are in this mess today partly due to people who don't understand not biting off more than you can chew. Do whatever you want, but don't expect to be bailed out.

EXACTLY.