Possible Glass Ceiling for Applicants with MAs

[MApplicant]

Hey everyone!

 

I was greatly disturbed by the Leiter post a few weeks back with comments from an admissions committee member at a top-20 PhD program for all the reasons people here and on Leiter’s blog made clear. That post, however, prompted me to investigate a nagging suspicion I’ve had about PhD admissions for applicants with MAs: only applicants who attended either a prestigious, well-known undergrad institution and/or an institution with a graduate program in philosophy prior to their MA are admitted to top-20 PhD programs in philosophy.

 

I looked through placement records of five highly regarded (Leiter recommended) funded MA programs and dug into the backgrounds of those who were admitted to top-20 programs since 2008. Ideally, I’d go back further than 2008, but around that time it gets more difficult to trace students’ histories out – over the course of six years some students have dropped out while others have completed the program, and for those that haven’t, internet records were spottier, personal details on the department website and personal websites were less common, etc. What I found was disheartening. Indeed, almost every student attending a top-20 PhD program who received an MA from a highly regarded, funded terminal program did their undergrad at a prestigious institution and/or one with a philosophy grad program. I did find a few exceptions, but every exception was either an international student or else the top-20 program that admitted them was Notre Dame.

 

Of course, I do need to qualify this somewhat. I was only able to trace out (or draw from personal familiarity with) 30/51 MA program placements into top-20 PhD programs. It’s entirely possible that some MA students without this sort of undergrad background got into top-20 PhD programs. The fact that every single one of the thirty (apart from the Notre Dame admits) came from (1) a well-recognized, prestigious undergrad institution, (2) an institution with a philosophy graduate program, and/or (3) a non-American institution, leaves me skeptical that there are many exceptions. This is also not to say that there won’t be exceptions in the future – perhaps even to the point where it wouldn’t be appropriate to call them exceptions. After all, MA programs have been pumping out solid students for years now and are earning greater respect in the philosophical community. I sincerely hope that MA applicants from different backgrounds (i.e. not (1), (2), or (3)) can gain admission to top-20 PhD programs in the future, but the evidence I’ve uncovered to this point suggests that they have not in the past (and if they have, they’ve been remarkably rare).

 

I bring this up because at this time every year, rejections start rolling in and applicants begin considering MA programs. I think that they’re well worth consideration. I, myself, attended a Leiter lauded MA program and have nothing but positive things to say about my experience. I met a ton of great people, learned so much, and had a blast. I think my time was well spent, but I had expectations going into the program that were not informed by this sort of data. If my expectations were informed by this data, I would’ve reconsidered my choice of attending an MA program instead of a decent, funded PhD offer. That’s not to say that students from less prestigious backgrounds can’t improve their applications (but most importantly, their philosophical skills) and get into better PhD programs post-MA. I’ve seen that happen with over a dozen people and I would now count myself among them, but it’s also important to have realistic expectations. Developing expectations about MA programs should be greatly informed by their placement records, but it’s also important to ask what students who got the placements you might want had in common. Strong philosophical skills, stellar writing samples, and great letters of recommendation to be sure, but that may not be all, sadly. 

Edited February 14, 2014 by MApplicant

[ianfaircloud]

Your conclusion is something like, "A candidate who comes from a weak undergraduate institution may not be helped much, as far as PhD placement is concerned, by attending even a well-regarded MA program."  Or something like that.

 

That conclusion may surprise a lot of people, but it doesn't surprise me too much.  I attended a very weak undergraduate institution.  In my experience, based on my readings, conversations, personal experience, anecdotal evidence, etc., there's a heavy bias against people who attended weak undergraduate institutions.  Even if one's written work is superb, one's numbers are all near-perfect, and everything else is lined up just right, the reputation of the undergraduate department can, by itself, undermine an applicant's shot at PhD admissions (to top-20 programs).

 

Anyway, I really appreciate your post here.  I think it's good that you've done the research and can say, with more certainty, that my suspicion could be warranted.

[MattDest]

You should really share the data you collected, if you have it. It would be very interesting to look at.

 

As an aside, I'm an (or will be, future sense) an exception to this. I went to a top-rated Leiter MA program, but attended a CSU (while I loved it, it was not recognized, and no grad program) for my undergrad. I've been admitted to Arizona, and still have a few other T-20 applicants out even though I'm not holding my breath. I realize that one exception doesn't undermine a trend at all, but I figured I would say something. 

[MApplicant]

That's awesome to hear MattDest! I'd be happy share details via PM. I'm especially curious if you went to one of the (funded) programs I looked at.

 

Ianfaircloud, that's one way of stating it. I didn't mean to imply that applicants with unspectacular undergraduate records (or even spectacular undergraduate records at anything but a very prestigious American program) can't be helped much. Just that getting into a top-20 PhD program seems to be remarkably difficult for anyone with such a background when they come from an MA program. (Casually perusing top-20 program websites, you'll often come across someone from an undergraduate institution that isn't especially prestigious, but they got into the PhD program straightaway without an MA)

Edited February 14, 2014 by MApplicant

[MattDest]

That's awesome to hear MattDest! I'd be happy share details via PM. I'm especially curious if you went to one of the (funded) programs I looked at.

 

Ianfaircloud, that's one way of stating it. I didn't mean to imply that applicants with unspectacular undergraduate records (or even spectacular undergraduate records at anything but a very prestigious American program) can't be helped much. Just that, getting into a top-20 PhD program seems to be remarkably difficult for anyone with such a background when they come from an MA program. (Casually perusing top-20 program websites, you'll often come across someone from an undergraduate institution that isn't especially prestigious, but they got into the PhD program straightaway without an MA)

 

I am at the University of Missouri, St. Louis. Many of the students here are funded, but I don't know if it's one of the programs you looked at. 

[ianfaircloud]

You should really share the data you collected, if you have it. It would be very interesting to look at.

 

As an aside, I'm an (or will be, future sense) an exception to this. I went to a top-rated Leiter MA program, but attended a CSU (while I loved it, it was not recognized, and no grad program) for my undergrad. I've been admitted to Arizona, and still have a few other T-20 applicants out even though I'm not holding my breath. I realize that one exception doesn't undermine a trend at all, but I figured I would say something. 

 

Definitely worth saying something.  I don't regret my choice, even as it looks like I could be shut out of admissions.  

 

Here's a point worth making: Even if (or even though) there's this bias, nothing gives an applicant with my background a better shot than for that applicant to attend a top-ranked MA program.

[ianfaircloud]

I am at the University of Missouri, St. Louis. Many of the students here are funded, but I don't know if it's one of the programs you looked at. 

 

Incidentally: I almost went to UMSL.  Great place to get an MA.  I lived in St. Louis awhile, so it was a serious consideration for me.

[MApplicant]

That is not one of the programs I looked at. For what it's worth, there were four MA placements at Arizona from the schools I looked at, but I was unable to find information about their undergrad institutions (nothing on the department website, MA programs with little information to identify them by, etc.) It's possible Arizona's exceptional in the way Notre Dame's exceptional, but I will make note of this and continue to search for information.

 

I'm not sure what the success rate is of people simply taking a year off and applying again with a refined writing sample (I also don't know how I'd come to know that), but I agree with you Ian. My MA experience was invaluable, improved my application, and got me into programs I'm happier to attend - even if not top-20 programs (I suppose I'm still waiting to hear from all of them).

[ianfaircloud]

I'm not sure what the success rate is of people simply taking a year off and applying again with a refined writing sample (I also don't know how I'd come to know that), . . . 

 

I'm curious about this, too.  I'm not sure whether you saw another post of mine on this site today, but I raised the point that part of what makes the best MA programs the best is their ability to attract people who would have done well with just an additional year to spend on a writing sample.  Again, I must emphasize, I think MA programs are extremely valuable, and I'm very glad that I attended one.

[AquinasDuo]

 I did find a few exceptions, but every exception was either an international student or else the top-20 program that admitted them was Notre Dame.

 

 

Do we have an insight as to why Notre Dame is an exception? I kick myself every time I realise I cut them from my list year for cost and now have better reason for said kickings, but I am sincerely curious to figure out why Notre Dame admissions are just so. 

[philosophe]

I think it would be fair to send this to Leiter and get the phil community to weigh in.

[ianfaircloud]

Do we have an insight as to why Notre Dame is an exception? I kick myself every time I realise I cut them from my list year for cost and now have better reason for said kickings, but I am sincerely curious to figure out why Notre Dame admissions are just so. 

 

I'd be curious how many applicants to Notre Dame are admitted in part because those applicants attended relatively-weak undergraduate institutions with religious ties.  Understandably, Notre Dame aims to be particularly inclusive of those with religious backgrounds.  There are a lot of capable students of philosophy attending little-known private schools for this reason.  Totally a guess here.

Edited February 14, 2014 by ianfaircloud

[Weltgeist]

I hope this doesn't come off as braggartly, but I'm applying to PhD programs straight out of my BA from a not at all well-known undergraduate institution (not even ranked on Leiter) with only a terminal masters, and I've had surprising (to me at least) success: wait-listed at two top-30 programs so far with assurances I have a good chance of getting into one. Granted my grades are excellent, but my GREs are only decent.  I guess I just want to say that to everyone coming from a middle-of-nowhere state school undergrad background, with or without an MA, there is some hope! I came into this with the same fears and loaded myself up with safe schools and am now feeling relatively comfortable.

[idol.chatter]

Grrr. I don't know how to respond to this except to express serious frustration. I find the disdain adcoms seem to have for unknown undergrads so irritating. For those of us who didn't even know what philosophy was as a discipline before selecting an undergrad, or for the tons of students who I'm sure change majors to philosophy in their sophomore or junior year, not even being able to get out of the gate because we went to a unknown undergrad seems so - to be trite - unfair. 

[Establishment]

A lot of people who have re-applied a second time have had better success. You'll find random such stories either here in thegradcafe or on Who-Got-In. This applies to both those re-applying with a BA, and those with an MA.

 

As for the MA glass ceiling, there may be a certain prejudice against MA students among some faculty members/universities, but t's not entirely clear. http://schwitzsplinters.blogspot.com/2011/10/sorry-cal-state-students-no-princeton.html did a little study on how much impact undergraduate prestige has on applicants, though I'm not sure how MA's fit in. There was that post on Leiter which displayed one sentiment. I've also heard remarks about certain universities not liking to admit MA students, but I don't think anyone really knows.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Establishment

[ianfaircloud]

I hope this doesn't come off as braggartly, but I'm applying to PhD programs straight out of my BA from a not at all well-known undergraduate institution (not even ranked on Leiter) with only a terminal masters, and I've had surprising (to me at least) success: wait-listed at two top-30 programs so far with assurances I have a good chance of getting into one. Granted my grades are excellent, but my GREs are only decent.  I guess I just want to say that to everyone coming from a middle-of-nowhere state school undergrad background, with or without an MA, there is some hope! I came into this with the same fears and loaded myself up with safe schools and am now feeling relatively comfortable.

 

That's awesome for you.  I think you're an exception.  But I guess that's the point, right: there are exceptions.  But let me tell you, I can say with complete confidence that nobody -- I mean no one -- is coming from my undergraduate institution and getting into a top-30 PhD program, without first attending an MA program.  I'm very, very confident about that.  So maybe it depends in part on how weak the institution is.

 

A lot of people who have re-applied a second time have had better success. You'll find random such stories either here in thegradcafe or on Who-Got-In. This applies to both those re-applying with a BA, and those with an MA.

 

As for the MA glass ceiling, there may be a certain prejudice against MA students among some faculty members/universities, but t's not entirely clear. http://schwitzsplinters.blogspot.com/2011/10/sorry-cal-state-students-no-princeton.html did a little study on how much impact undergraduate prestige has on applicants, though I'm not sure how MA's fit in. There was that post on Leiter which displayed one sentiment. I've also heard remarks about certain universities not liking to admit MA students, but I don't think anyone really knows.

 

Well, to be clear, we're not talking about an MA glass ceiling.  We're talking about a "weak-undergraduate-institution" glass ceiling.  I think the thread would more properly be titled something to this effect.  Note what MApplicant said: "only applicants who attended either a prestigious, well-known undergrad institution and/or an institution with a graduate program in philosophy prior to their MA are admitted to top-20 PhD programs in philosophy."

[philstudent1991]

I'm curious as to how this forum perceives the top 5 or so MA programs. What are they? The ones that immediately come to mind are Tufts, Brandeis, Georgia State, UW Milwaukee, Houston and UMSL. Are there any other programs that might be candidates for the top 5?

[MApplicant]

Well, I only meant to state that I've found pretty discouraging evidence for a glass ceiling for applicants with MAs. As I said above, I've noticed a lot of students from lesser known/prestigious schools at top-20 PhD programs, but they're the ones who made it straight through from their BAs.

[Weltgeist]

That's awesome for you.  I think you're an exception.  But I guess that's the point, right: there are exceptions.  But let me tell you, I can say with complete confidence that nobody -- I mean no one -- is coming from my undergraduate institution and getting into a top-30 PhD program, without first attending an MA program.  I'm very, very confident about that.  So maybe it depends in part on how weak the institution is.

That was of course my point; that there are exceptions, and that qua exceptions they aren't mythical: they happen.

 

I wish of course that the exceptions weren't such exceptions - I share completely idol chatter's gripe: several friends of mine are utterly brilliant (certainly more so than me) but come from similar backgrounds as me and have had considerably less luck in admissions, and I have no doubt why.

[Establishment]

I'm curious as to how this forum perceives the top 5 or so MA programs. What are they? The ones that immediately come to mind are Tufts, Brandeis, Georgia State, UW Milwaukee, Houston and UMSL. Are there any other programs that might be candidates for the top 5?

 

Virginia Tech, I think for top-5. I think Texas A&M has a very strong placement record though given certain interests, but overall probably doesn't make the cut.

[MApplicant]

That was of course my point; that there are exceptions, and that qua exceptions they aren't mythical: they happen.

 

I wish of course that the exceptions weren't such exceptions - I share completely idol chatter's gripe: several friends of mine are utterly brilliant (certainly more so than me) but come from similar backgrounds as me and have had considerably less luck in admissions, and I have no doubt why.

Congrats! I think you're an exception to Ianfaircloud's claim, but not to mine if you're applying straight from your BA without an MA.

[MApplicant]

Do we have an insight as to why Notre Dame is an exception? I kick myself every time I realise I cut them from my list year for cost and now have better reason for said kickings, but I am sincerely curious to figure out why Notre Dame admissions are just so. 

 

Unfortunately, I don't. Three out of five MA applicants (whose undergrad backgrounds I could find) admitted to Notre Dame were from religious schools though.

[Monadology]

MApplicant, do you mind contacting Eric Schwitzgebel with your data? Given his post about the effect of undergraduate degrees on PhD admissions, he might find it really interesting and might post about it on his blog, which could get the word out if these trends are genuine (anecdotally I can kind of confirm them, but I don't remember what undergrads all my classmates went to).

[MApplicant]

Sure thing, I'll pass this information on to Leiter and Schwitzgebel. First, I want to do some more digging though so I can have a more complete dataset. 30/51 isn't bad and it may not get much better with such little information out there about some of those students, but I'd like to get it as complete as I can.