Turning Down PhD for MA?

[Phil519]

Hi, I have a question. Would anyone on this board ever turn down an offer from a leiter ranked PhD program for a top MA program? Lets say an applicant has funded offers from a few MA programs with excellent PhD placement and the same applicant also has an acceptance to a top 30 or 40 PhD program. Would there be any case in which it would make more sense go to the masters program in hopes of gaining more acceptances to PhD programs? Or is that just playing with fire (i.e. given the competative nature of doctoral admissions, there is no guarantee of gaining acceptance after an MA)? I understand that declining a PhD offer for a MA would add on 2-3 more years of graduate study.

[philosophe]

I'm also considering this... But my program is only one year. I think I'm going to request to defer my acceptances, but I'm not sure if they'll do it. I'll report back.

Just remember the admissions process is a real crapshoot, so I would be wary to give up your acceptances, but if you can secure them for a future time, that's a different story.

[Establishment]

Are you happy with where you got in, or do you wish or think you could have done better? If the latter, I'd say do the MA. I turned down two top-50 spots to do the MA, and I've heard of many others doing the same. A good MA statistically improves your chances at top programs.

[Cottagecheeseman]

I'm in this position as well, say if I get into UVA off the waitlist, and also get into one of the MA programs I applied to. I'm not sure which I would choose now, but I would seriously consider turning down and offer to go to an MA if I thought it made my chances quite good at getting into a good Phd program afterwards. 

Edited March 5, 2014 by zizeksucks

[Zukunftsmusik]

Would you regret your decision if, after the MA program, you only got into the same school or comparable schools? There's a lot to like about MA programs, but is what you would gain there worth two extra years of time? (Most PhD programs I've looked at don't give too much credit for courses completed at MA programs, so your time to degree won't decrease much if at all)

 

If you think your answer to the first has a high probability of being yes or to the second has a high probability of being no, then don't do it.

[lesage13]

How is the department in your AOS? How's it's placement? Personally, I'd take a sure thing over rolling the dice again if you're already in at a mid-tier department that's strong in your AOS and has a track record of placing well. As others have pointed out on this board, the PGR overall rankings doesn't necessarily track the kinds of things that a prospective grad student should be looking for when deciding where to go/apply--if that's what you're worried about wrt the PhD offer you have. (Btw, have you visited either school?) I think that fit, climate, and placement are all more important than a department's overall rank, but that's just me. Also, given the kind of randomness at play in grad admissions, know that there's a chance that you might not do as well next season, even with an MA under your belt.

Edited March 5, 2014 by lesage13

[Griswald]

Have you considered accepting the PhD offer with the intent to transfer later on? It's been done before, and my sense is that many departments are happy to help their students get into more prestigious programs, provided that those students are really excellent.

[philosophe]

Have you considered accepting the PhD offer with the intent to transfer later on? It's been done before, and my sense is that many departments are happy to help their students get into more prestigious programs, provided that those students are really excellent.

 

You mean accepting the Phd offer as a deferral and going to the MA first? I thought that's what you were talking about, but then I wasn't sure considering your second sentence. I'd be curious to know what you mean. 

[wildc4t]

He means going to the PhD program with the intent to apply to "better" PhD programs in a year or two.

[philosophe]

He means going to the PhD program with the intent to apply to "better" PhD programs in a year or two.

 

I see. I'm surprised that that's done.. it seems like once they accept you and invest their time and money into you it would be kind of rude to be like, see ya around, write me recs for a better program. unless you have a really good reason (IE the person you wanted to work with left or retired, etc.)

Edited March 5, 2014 by philosophe

[Griswald]

I see. I'm surprised that that's done.. it seems like once they accept you and invest their time and money into you it would be kind of rude to be like, see ya around, write me recs for a better program. unless you have a really good reason (IE the person you wanted to work with left or retired, etc.)

Well, I know a few students who have done it, so it's definitely possible. I think you're right though, that you'd have to be tactful about how you go about it so as to avoid offending anyone in your department. I think you'd have to stand out as one of the department's top students in order to even consider asking. 

[Ryura]

This Leiter post is relevant to the idea of transferring:

http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2010/08/transferring-phd-programs-twice.html

 

Most people there sounded fine with transferring Ph.D. programs; a large number didn't even find transferring twice problematic.

[philstudent1991]

Hi, I have a question. Would anyone on this board ever turn down an offer from a leiter ranked PhD program for a top MA program? Lets say an applicant has funded offers from a few MA programs with excellent PhD placement and the same applicant also has an acceptance to a top 30 or 40 PhD program. Would there be any case in which it would make more sense go to the masters program in hopes of gaining more acceptances to PhD programs? Or is that just playing with fire (i.e. given the competative nature of doctoral admissions, there is no guarantee of gaining acceptance after an MA)? I understand that declining a PhD offer for a MA would add on 2-3 more years of graduate study.

There would indeed be cases where it would make more sense to go to the MA. Which cases those are, however, I think only you can decide.

[Occam's Razorburn]

To lay my cards on the table here, I had an offer (with lots of money, oddly), from a T40 (PGR) program the first time I did applications. I also got admitted to an MA program, one of the not-really-ranked "top 6," I guess. I figured it was a calculated risk, but I chose to take it. I'd say I'm very happy I did it, honestly. I feel like not only has it helped my admissions process and all that, but it's made me a better philosopher, put me into contact with more scholars and future scholars of philosophy, and been genuinely fun as well. I think I'd find it valuable even if I didn't end up getting into any better-ranked schools because of it. 

 

I think it's fine, and oftentimes even advisable, to take that risk. As long as you're realistic about it and acknowledge that it is, in fact, a risk, I think holding off on accepting that decent-but-not-stellar PhD offer to do a Master's instead is completely reasonable.

[philosophe]

To lay my cards on the table here, I had an offer (with lots of money, oddly), from a T40 (PGR) program the first time I did applications. I also got admitted to an MA program, one of the not-really-ranked "top 6," I guess. I figured it was a calculated risk, but I chose to take it. I'd say I'm very happy I did it, honestly. I feel like not only has it helped my admissions process and all that, but it's made me a better philosopher, put me into contact with more scholars and future scholars of philosophy, and been genuinely fun as well. I think I'd find it valuable even if I didn't end up getting into any better-ranked schools because of it. 

 

I think it's fine, and oftentimes even advisable, to take that risk. As long as you're realistic about it and acknowledge that it is, in fact, a risk, I think holding off on accepting that decent-but-not-stellar PhD offer to do a Master's instead is completely reasonable.

 

I appreciate this, thanks!

[LogicalForm]

I'm in a similar position to this one. (Hi, longtime lurker here, finally joined up this morning). I was accepted to Western Ontario (Ph.D) and Toronto (M.A.), and it's making the decision a lot more difficult. If it were just two M.A. offers, I think I would easily go with Toronto, but the fact that I could start my Ph.D this fall at what I feel like is a decent place for my AOIs is pretty enticing. There's a part of me that thinks going to Toronto will allow me to elevate myself into having a chance at all the schools I was rejected to this year the next time I apply, but another part of me which thinks I should just accept the offer I got from Western and get started, since this whole application game is so unpredictable.  I'm just going to try to get advice from as many people as possible. 

[ProspectiveGradStudent]

One of my professors at my undergrad institution started his Ph.D program at Syracuse University. Halfway through the program there was for some reason a mass exodus of Syracuse's then-most-recognized philosophy professors -- severely decreasing the strength of the department. My professor and many of his colleagues opted to transfer, and he ended up at Rutgers where he graduated.

 

So there you have an example of a transfer who had good reason to transfer, without stepping on anybody's toes, who ended up at a top tier school in the process. 

[MeonticDodals]

LogicalForm, you should be careful with 1yr graduate programs like Toronto's or St Andrews'. I think there's a tendency amongst applicants to overvalue the credential's contribution to your PhD application. The main value of such programs is to make you a better philosopher. Admissions committees will not be impressed by the fact that you graduated from Toronto's MA -- barring game-changers like the Rhodes and the like, the only thing that truly impresses ad. coms. is good work and good letters. So you should attend Toronto only if you think it will help you to produce a better writing sample and net you some nice letters.

 

If you apply next fall, you will have had little time to fully benefit from you classes at Toronto and to form relationships with professors. So if you do opt for the MA, you should be prepared for the possibility that you'll only start your PhD in two years.

 

EDIT: Original post was missing a few crucial words.

Edited March 6, 2014 by MeonticDodals

[LogicalForm]

MeonticDodals, thanks for your advice. I should clarify...I didn't mean to imply that merely the credential of the Toronto M.A. would get me into a high ranked Ph.D, but rather, as you say, the M.A. at U of T would give me another year to become a better philosopher under some great professors, and would give me the opportunity to get letters from some of them. If I choose to attend Toronto (or Western for just the M.A., which is also an option), it will be with the plan of taking another year off afterwards (as I've done this year after my B.A.) and applying to Ph.D programs for entrance in Fall 2016.

My dilemma was more concerning whether I should just go with the Ph.D offer I have on the table now, or do a one year M.A. with the intention of improving my abilities/letters/GREs and my chances in another cycle. 

 

It's true that another drawback would be that the M.A. would require taking more time off, but as long as I remain current and try to stay engaged, one or two years off from school doesn't seem like that much in the long run to me. Does that make sense?

[Phil519]

The PhD program in question is very good for my AOI and has very good placement (its TT placement far exceeds many similarly ranked programs). In fact, it would be a great program to go to in a few years.

 

My hesitations are these:

 

1) I went to a very small school that didn't have much breadth of coursework, so I am missing a lot of core coursework in certain parts of my AOI. I have taught myself a lot of the relevent contemporary discussions and issues. An MA program would help catch me up to speed on a lot of the stuff that my undergrad program couldn't offer. I suspect that it was my lack of coursework, in part, that held me back from other programs.

 

2) While my GPA was a 4.0 my junior and senior year, my freshmen and sophmore year GPA, for various reasons, consisted of mostly A-'s and a few B+'s. I think this also hurt my application and spending two years in an MA program could undo a little of the damage and potentially make me a stronger looking applicant.

 

3) In certain respects, it would be really nice to have a few more years of support and development so that when I do go to a PhD program, I will be more prepared for the graduate level writing and research. I know I am capable of that now, but I also know that two more years of practice would be an immense help to feeling more comfortable in a doctoral level environment.

[Ryura]

The PhD program in question is very good for my AOI and has very good placement (its TT placement far exceeds many similarly ranked programs). In fact, it would be a great program to go to in a few years.

 

My hesitations are these:

 

1) I went to a very small school that didn't have much breadth of coursework, so I am missing a lot of core coursework in certain parts of my AOI. I have taught myself a lot of the relevent contemporary discussions and issues. An MA program would help catch me up to speed on a lot of the stuff that my undergrad program couldn't offer. I suspect that it was my lack of coursework, in part, that held me back from other programs.

 

2) While my GPA was a 4.0 my junior and senior year, my freshmen and sophmore year GPA, for various reasons, consisted of mostly A-'s and a few B+'s. I think this also hurt my application and spending two years in an MA program could undo a little of the damage and potentially make me a stronger looking applicant.

 

3) In certain respects, it would be really nice to have a few more years of support and development so that when I do go to a PhD program, I will be more prepared for the graduate level writing and research. I know I am capable of that now, but I also know that two more years of practice would be an immense help to feeling more comfortable in a doctoral level environment.

Is there a reason why you think the PhD program wouldn't help with (1) and (3), but an MA would? Certainly the coursework of the PhD program will expose you to relevant contemporary discussions and issues as well as prepare you for graduate level writing and research.

[philstudent1991]

If you feel this PhD program is where you'd like to end up anyways, I'd definitely take the offer while you have it. The only case I'd think about doing the MA is if you want to get in to a "better" PhD program later.

[philosophe]

So I was just admitted to Tufts for the terminal MA. I'm under the impression that they have very good placement, and I'm back to my question of whether or not I should attempt to get into better phd programs by going the MA route first. Any additional thoughts on this would be welcome! thanks

[MeonticDodals]

Go to Tufts -- from people I've talked to in my PhD program, the Tufts MA is an excellent launch pad.

[Establishment]

Tufts kills it every season with their placement.