A Trashed GPA to 1st Class Honours... Now What?

[Marcion]

 

Hey all members of Grad School Cafe! I am wondering if I can get some insight and advice from people... Straight up, my goal is to be a professor and scholar of the New Testament and Christian Origins. I want to be an academic, a teacher, and a scholar in the field. Yes, yes, yes. Before you warn me, I have read and heard it all. I know the job market is cut throat for academics at the moment, I know competition for placements within divinity schools and religious studies programs is tough, and I know there is not a lot of opportunities for me after I complete my studies and achieve my PhD eventually. Maybe I am delusional or just plain stupid, but I really cannot see myself doing anything else. It is what I want to devote my life too. I love education, I love scholarship, I love writing, and I love the exploring the world in which a backwater group of marginal Jews from Palestine grew to be the dominate religion of the Roman Empire in merely three centuries. I do not want to sound like an academic brat that things he "deserves" to be an academic and professor, as I know it is a deep privilege to be respected as a teacher and a scholar, but frankly I do not day dream of a high office in an ivy league university. I would be just as happy working in a community college, a state university, or private college with a pay cheque coming in week to week, so long as I was surrounded by colleagues who encouraged my work and students who engaged with the classes before them. An ideal dream perhaps, but as my aunts, uncles, brothers, and parents all work in education in one way or another, I guess you could say it is in my blood and I have raised on the power and privilege that education brings and gives.  

 

However... I have not had the best of times when it comes to this academic path, this what I need you help with.

 

Allow me to explain. When I was an undergraduate, I began my Bachelor's of Theology at the Australian Catholic University. In my first two years, I was rocking my GPA, getting high praise from my professors, and working very hard on my on time to take in all the knowledge I could. However a deep lose struck me in my third year with the death of my grandmother, which was unexpected and quite shocking. Rather then being emotionally mature and seeking the aid of my professors, I foolishly avoided classes and just accepted failures for my assignments. Thus beginning my downward path... I then changed universities to Charles Sturt University and begin my studies as an Anglican Priest, which was what I desired to do with my life at that time. However, the university was dramatically different to my previous one and I loathed my time there. I was dirt poor as well, so I had to juggle working crazy hours into the night at a MacDonalds, along with seminary church training, as well as academics. By the end of the year, my GPA was trashed, my faith in God and the Church destroyed, and to top it all off one of my closest friends in another seminary program related to the university killed himself, this was the last straw and I said to hell with it all and I postponed the degree completely. I decided it was time to grow up and "get a real job", which I did for three years, working as a manager of a jewellery store, yet that was very unrewarding and in time, I felt drawn back to my academic life. I finished my degree via distance education with good grades and received my Bachelor's Degree with mediocre results, no biblical languages, and no shining scholarship.

 

While being an agnostic now, I still loved reading and reviewing whatever pieces of literature came out, like Crossan's new work or Ehrman's. Seeing what debates were going on the SBL forums, and seeing what some of my favourite scholars were cooking up next. While I did not have faith, I had a desire for knowledge, and I knew I wanted to be an academic in the field. Wanting to be an academic now, I set my goal on that and started contacting various universities. All of them looked at my transcripts and might as well have laughed me off the phone or through their emails, apart from one professor from the University of Newcastle. I spoke with him over the phone and he was extremely impressed with how well read I was, how up to date I was on the scholarship in the field, and how many ideas I had when it came to Christian Origins and the New Testament. He told me to send in what I considered to be my best essay, I did, and he called me back within the hour and said he would fight for me to be accepted as an Honours Student. I do not know if you are familiar with Honours Programs, but it an extra year students are invited to take in relation to their Bachelor's Degree in which they produce a thesis of 15,000 words. I was accepted into the program and spend the year working hard on this thesis, being on "The Honour and Shame of Circumcision in 1 Corinthians within the Jewish-Roman Matrix". I received First Class Honours for my thesis, which basically the summa cum laude of Australia. I am not trying to blow my own horn, but after how low I was before, it was quite the feat to go from what in America would be a GPA of 1.00 to summa cum laude. 

 

In the mean time, I met a wonderful girl from Kansas, who stole my heart and we began a long distance relationship and eventually, I asked her to marry me. We are currently undergoing the process of the K1 Visa and we will be wed in September, where I will move to America and be with her. With one year left in Australia, I decided to take advantage of Australia's 'free' education system, and enrolled into a Masters of Theological Studies program that I could complete in a year. I have been rocking that as well, and will hopefully finish that program by the end of the year almost with great marks as well ready for grad school in America... However... this is the kicker, I still do not have any biblical languages under my belt. My undergrad years at ACU and CSU offered Greek and Hebrew, but they were in my low points so I failed both of those classes, and in my Masters program this year Greek or Hebrew was not being offered. I have emailed around PhD programs I have liked the look of but all understandably require extensive backgrounds in the biblical languages. It had been suggested I do another Masters, this time taking the time to focus on the languages and perhaps mix it up with more Old Testament studies as well or Classics or just Ancient History in general.

 

I am at a lose and I do not know what to do, where to go, what expect from programs in the United States, not to mention the GRE. Can anyone offer some insight? What programs? What ways to go? 

 

[xypathos]

This honors thesis - it seems to read more as a post-bac than anything. Did you take courses at all during this year or did you solely focus on writing the thesis?

 

You mentioned completing the BA through distance education - which is fine, I did the same and got two extremely generous funding offers. Somewhat different boat than you since I'm going the M.Div route but I touched base with Vandy before I ever applied to discuss my situation and was informed that 1) the school must be regionally accredited, 2) good grades, 3) solid LORs - do those three and the committee wouldn't bat an eye at the fact that it was online. I know some of this isn't relevant to you.

 

Without knowing more we can't suggest programs, unfortunately. The biblical scholars in training here need to know more about what you're interested in to suggest PhD programs.

 

That said, I don't think you'd get into any of them.

 

You're going to need at least one more M* degree to flesh out your research interests some more, work on the ancient languages, counter the online degree (it'll get you into a M* program, but I wouldn't dare apply to PhD programs with only an online degree), and probably to court some stronger LORs. 

 

The GRE isn't that bad, it's mostly overhyped. There are more important things in your app. As far as preparing for it, I really enjoyed Magoosh.

[sacklunch]

If you have your heart set on NT, you will need a minimum of two years of Greek. Usually students in NT have a couple years of Hebrew, many German, French, and related ancient languages (Latin, Coptic, Syriac, and so on). Because you have no languages now and that is going to be the biggest factor in getting into a funded PhD, you most certainly will need another M* degree. You might apply to some of the bigger divinity schools, since many of them offer good funding (no idea how this would work since you are moving here with an American wife). As a bridge between another masters, if there is some time between, you might consider doing some of the language work at a community college wherever you happen to live. FWIW, the University of Kansas (in Lawrence) has a really great Classics Dept. I'm fairly sure they offer full rides + stipends for their MA students, though you would def. need Greek/Latin going into the program. Point being, there may be a way to register for the classes as a special student and get some of them out of the way (again, maybe your wife having in state status would give you cheap tuition...?). 

 

Lastly I would say, just be open. Your interests will change, keep your options open. 

[Marcion]

Just to correct a few things and flesh out, but thank you so much for replying! 

 

Firstly, the Apostle Paul and his activities are my main area of interest, to narrow it down, I am really interested in the opposition Paul faced throughout his career and in a wider sense, the legacy Paul left in which Paul could praise him and curse him. A lot of my research and thesis has its basis in the work set by F. C. Baur and the "Two Mission" thesis, and with modern scholars like Gerd Ludemann, Michael Goulder (RIP), David Sim, Ian Elmer, James Tabor, and a lesser degree Francis Watson and Eung Chun Park. However, I also have an interest in the Gospels of Matthew and Mark and what sort of Christianities they may represent, but Paul is my main focus. I hope that helps.

 

To explain the Honours Degree, I am going to just link to Wiki, I know shocking that a budding scholar would recommend such a link but it does flesh it out well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honours_degree. Basically it almost like a "second" degree "attached" to your first degree. The Honours Degree is stand alone and can only be achieved by the production of a thesis, usually 10000 - 15000 words in length. In my experience the year was broken up into two main parts, part one was methodology and literature review in which I took a few classes on producing such things at this level but spend the main about of time exploring my own methodology and producing a literature review related to my thesis, and then part two, the bulk of the thesis research and argument.

My Masters of Theological Studies that I am doing now, is multi-mode, in which we have online classes but also seminars and intense classes every couple of weeks. At the moment, I am working with a GPA 6.90 out of 7.00. So a big turn around. My classes are: The Gospel of Matthew, The Pauline Literature, Social Justice and World Religions, and The Philosophy of Research Methodology. Second and final semester I am taking: New Testament Christology, Sacraments and Sacramentality, and Special Studies (my choice and producing a 10,000 word thesis on a topic). I will have this Masters completed around September this year, which is at the time (Obama willing), after I have my Visa interview and I am approved, I will go to the United States of America.

 

My fiance is not with me, she lives in Kansas and is awaiting me there. After I marry my fiance, I will become a "Resident Alien" and eventually "Permeant Resident", hence the name wink*wink*. From what the various universities have told me, this counts me as a Resident Application, as if I was a US Citizen.

 

To Latte, I have looked at the University of Kansas and it does look like a very promising program. They do have an M.A. Program in Religious Studies and a lot of students who need Greek and Latin I have been told "sit in" on the classes and take it on their own time, and in the second year of the program, if they can prove they are up to it, they can take the Masters Level Greek and Latin subjects towards there degree. Johnson County Community College also teaches Greek and Latin, so I have considered starting there for a year, then bridging into KU's MA Program. Missouri State University has also recommended that same course of action. However, I have seen various Divinity Schools and Seminaries that offer Greek, Latin, and Hebrew in there MA programs with no prior languages needed. So... lots to take in and lots to process.

Edited March 21, 2014 by TheResidentAlien

[mdiv2014]

the dive in your gpa can be handled (god knows one of the biggest mistakes of my undergraduate life was 'allowing my priorities to change' when i received a scholarship)

like other posters said start rounding out your life experiences as they relate to your goals

i would add becoming a substitute teacher (check the requirements of each school district - the preliminary paperwork and background checks may be daunting, don't give up as teaching is your goal

also volunteering at churches, etc

welcome to amerika

[Macrina]

While you certainly have some relevant background and interest, the reality is that the US system will not consider your honors year as anything equivalent to a first masters, and many successful applicants to doctoral programs have several relevant masters degrees. Given your GPA issues, as well as your Australian (therefore, relatively unknown here) institutions, you will almost certainly need to do a second masters to become competitive for phd applications. This isn't a bad thing as it will allow you to get your languages up and to become familiar with the American system and institutions.

Good luck.

[Marcion]

Well it appears the second masters is becoming the clear winner... but where and what? Can anyone speak to Kansas or Missouri or another grad school they can recommend? 

[Macrina]

NT isn't my area, so I don't know where the POIs you are interested in teach. If I were trying to navigate the theological/religious studies education system in a new country, I would figure out my end goal. If the goal is a phd, where? Are the people you want to work with at top-tier institutions? If so you will need an M* degree from a comparable institution.

Figure out the places you're aiming for for your final degree and work backwards. It is possible to get into really highly ranked places with a relatively unknown/less impressive background, but in your case, there are too many unknowns already. I wouldn't take that risk.

[Marcion]

That is really my game plan Macrina. I do not have visions of ivy league glory and top tier placements. I think I am a decent scholar and professor in the making. After redeeming my Bachelor's with my Honours and now Masters, I think I am onto a good thing, but I am nothing special. I can admit that. Thanks for your advice, very insightful.

[Joseph45]

I think the main thing to keep in mind is that it's not as hard to get into Duke, Yale, Harvard Div schools as one would think. It sounds like you could write a pretty good personal statement and would have a couple of strong rec letters, so I think it's very possible to get accepted into one of those programs.

 

The advangtage of going to one of those three (or similar places) is, first of all, they have a lot of money (Yale and Harvard more than Duke). They're probably way more affordable than what you think, and certainly more affordable than many less prestigious programs.

 

Secondly, they give you a chance to impress important people. You certainly don't need to go to one of those schools to get into a top PhD program (and I'm guessing most of the people who go to those schools with dreams of glory don't end up getting into top programs), but you'd be surprised how many people at top programs come from one of those three. You sound like you're much more up to speed on the scholarship than many people who enter those programs would be, so you would have the chance to set yourself apart.

 

By the way, you wouldn't have to finish an M.Div before applying to PhD programs. You could apply after a year or two (if you think your application is ready) and see what happens.

 

The downside, however, to going to one of those (or similar) large div programs, is that you're not going to get much personal attention. You'll be fighting other students for professors' attention, and that's no fun.

 

Anyway, there's my two cents.

[Marcion]

Thanks for the advice Joseph!

 

Probably the programs that have interested me the most is the Masters in Interdisciplinary Studies that feature Classics, Languages, and Religious Studies. The featured at the University of Oregon sounds really good: http://classics.uoregon.edu/programs/graduate-program/interdisciplinary/

[xypathos]

You know yourself better than any of us, but how does this program help you get to where you want to be? Looking at the coursework you said you've completed to date and what this program requires, it's going to be two years at the minimum. Looking at the language requirements, I think you're really looking at three years.

 

While history and religious studies share some skillsets and research methodology, there are differences. This program is designed for the former, though it would still be beneficial for you if you're interested in the history of Christianity. I think there are better programs if your goal is a PhD in Religious Studies.

 

As others have stated, I'd look at the academic MA/MTS degrees offered by Yale, Duke, Harvard, Vanderbilt, and the like.

 

Just my .02

[Kuriakos]

Are you the same guy who posted on the SBL facebook group?

[sacklunch]

Alien,

Sent you a PM. I'm from near where you will be moving. 

[Marcion]

Are you the same guy who posted on the SBL facebook group?

 Yes I am. I didn't really find any of the feedback helpful or the advice insightful, and generally, the tone was completely negative towards a person interested in a career in scholarship and teaching. I am not saying everyone had that view, but I jumped over here because I had seen people be a bit more open, sharing, caring, and helpful. Plus, I felt safer sharing my journey here, so people can see a fuller picture.

[Kuriakos]

From what I remember, the advice was generally the same. Get a second master's or do a post-bacc in Classics somewhere. 

[Marcion]

From what I remember, the advice was generally the same. Get a second master's or do a post-bacc in Classics somewhere. 

 

Yes, but here, people have actually recommended programs and directed me to schools I had not considered or did not know about. Also, at TheGradCafe, no is posting articles or comments about the decline in academic jobs, why going for a Phd is a foolish venture, or just generally questioning my desires and motives behind wanting to be a scholar and educator just because I said "I cannot see myself doing anything else with my life". So yes, the advice is the same, but more focused and the negativity is lacking to my delight.

[marXian]

Lots of people have thrown out some great advice already, but I just wanted to add something else.

 

I'm going to be a bummer and bring a little bit of negativity...  ...but hopefully it can become positivity!    Please do not take this the wrong way, since all I know about you is from your story that you've posted. Think of this as some "tough love" I guess: You seem like you're in an idealistic phase right now, and you need to get through it as soon as possible if you want to get real about a PhD program.

 

Three things tell me that.

 

1)Yes, your story and this thread demonstrate that you know you need to do something about your undergraduate career. But you set up your story as "Look I'm not after that idyllic job--I want this one which is way more realistic!" It's really not though. Any of us, even those of us already in programs, would be crazy to just assume we're definitely going to get a job at an Ivy League school when we're done. The vast majority of us will not. But the jobs you're talking about are negligibly easier to obtain than a job at a tier 1 university. So in a sense, we're equally crazy if we think we're just going to waltz into even a community college with our PhD in hand, slap it down and say, "Now where's my office?" I know--you don't want to hear about the job market. But that tells me you maybe don't want to hear about other potential obstacles as well. Your response to Kuriakos' question about the SBL Facebook page seems to confirm that. You have to be realistic about the job market because that's going to help you figure out what programs you should be aiming for and thus what your preparation now should be.

 

2) People are going to tell you things you don't want to hear, and they're going to do it in a not nice way. It's not because they think you're a bad person for wanting a PhD (well, maybe some do) but it's because when a person comes on to a page like that or a board like this leading with dreams of a cozy little office at a liberal arts college or whatever and what is to me sort of an odd instance on an interdisciplinary studies program, a red flag immediately goes up signaling that maybe this person has some blinders on that need to be removed. Be open to the possibility that you do have some blinders on right now. So instead of saying, "I don't like that answer," take those responses very very seriously. If you want to make this happen, you need to take every step you possibly can toward the goal of just getting into a PhD program without already deciding on what sort of job you're going to have when you're done.

 

3) Lastly, it's confusing why you would shy away from one of the major div schools or seminaries in favor of an IS program. I would very seriously take into consideration the level of language prep that derewigestudent is suggesting. I would also take seriously the suggestion that an IS program may not be the best prep for a PhD in New Testament. At the very least, it will close some doors for you that an MDiv, MAT, MTS, etc. from a well known div school or seminary would not. Why do you have your heart set on an interdisciplinary studies program aside from the fact that it combines religious studies and classics? If you went to Harvard, Duke, Yale, etc., you could easily take courses in classics, religious studies, languages and you'd be earning a degree that would be far, far more competitive than the Oregon program.

 

Again, I'm not trying to discourage you. The sooner you really face the reality of your situation, however, the easier it's going to be for you to really figure out what it is you need to do to get into a good program. I think all of us at one point or another went through a phase like this. And as I said at the beginning, you're obviously on the right track in owning up to the fact that your current preparation just isn't going to cut it. Recognizing these other things will go a long way in being able to properly assess your situation and prepare accordingly.

[Marcion]

marXian, thanks for your response. Very true and right. As you said, any job in higher education is idyllic at the moment. I am not shying away from that, not at all. In fact, I have spoken to my fiance about Plan Bs recently and all of this is going through out minds. I am barely 25, so I have a lot of time to figure out what I am going to do and where I am going to go. I like that you said we are "equally crazy". Perhaps in time I will have to move back to Australia to chase the dream, perhaps I will end up a High School teacher, or maybe back in the jewellery gig until the opportunity comes. I am well aware how cut-throat it is out there, so any position a stroke of hard work and luck. I just want to trust that I am honest about what may come of this, but I want to chase it anyway.

To the comment about facing realities and criticisms from others, I have a sense that on this forum that people are well aware what it is like out there but being supportive and helpful. I don't want to come off as someone who avoids criticisms and realities, trust me, from where I was a year ago with a Bachelor's Degree shot to hell, I had a lot of realities to face. As for SBL, it was not so much, "I do not like that answer" but "how is that answering helpful to me or to anyone?". Once again, I am really grateful for your response and others, the fact that you have taken the time to write such a long response to me, shows that you want to impart some advice and wisdom. Already I have been PM with a few courses I did not know about, people have offered insights about schools, and I have seen people take the time to comment. Criticism is fine, but I think constructive criticism benefits in the long run. 

 

As for the seminary/divinity school thing... This is in all likelihood a prejudice from my previous experience with a university-linked seminary. It was very strict, very religious, and very devotional. Granted, I was in training to be a priest. But I am worried that now that I am an agnostic, I am not sure how I would "feel" in the programs at a Divinity School and at a Seminary. Something I was advised by my supervisor was to look for programs where I could see myself teaching and with people who would equally challenging and supportive. As I do not see myself at a seminary or a divinity school, I am looking at public and state schools like Missouri, Kansas, and Oregon. Please bare in mind, I am still learning what is out there and what is available to me, and not only that, but my fiance also wants to do her Masters as well. As I am sure a lot of you are aware, it is not only about our academic goals, but our partner's as well. For example, Emory's program looks very good and I am sure it would be a good fit for me, however my fiance has no desire to move to Atlanta and in her field, she doesn't feel like it would be a good fit. Now, I could be way off about seminaries and divinity schools in the USA, I have been wrong before! So please correct me if I am wrong!!! As for the interdisciplinary studies or religious studies or whatever, these are merely options and they appear to be good ones for my need and lack of languages. 

 

Please know, I am taking everything on board and I am really grateful for everyone's advice. 

Edited March 22, 2014 by TheResidentAlien

[Lux Lex Pax]

Not all divinity schools or seminaries in the U.S. are as confessional as you might think. University of Chicago Div, Yale Div, Harvard Div, GTU, and probably Claremont, for starters, are places where a skeptic might not have a difficult time, and might even find it more amenable than being a believer.

[Marcion]

Not all divinity schools or seminaries in the U.S. are as confessional as you might think. University of Chicago Div, Yale Div, Harvard Div, GTU, and probably Claremont, for starters, are places where a skeptic might not have a difficult time, and might even find it more amenable than being a believer.

 

Thanks for the heads up. Claremont has caught my eye being the old home of Burton Mack and now home to Dennis MacDonald.

[marXian]

Okay that makes more sense now. Thanks for the charitable response. Someone else very recently started a thread with the same assumptions about divinity schools/seminaries. There are definitely some places you do not want to go as an atheist or agnostic. But the big name programs will be totally fine. In addition to what Lux mentioned, Boston College and Duke would probably be fine as well. Those are the sorts of programs that will have the greatest recognition among the best PhD programs in biblical studies.

[Joseph45]

"on the comment about facing realities and criticisms from others, I have a sense that on this forum that people are well aware what it is like out there but being supportive and helpful."

 

For what it's worth, I strongly disagree with this statement. Most people on this forum are applying to PhD programs, or maybe in their first year. I'm not sure if anybody has actually applied for a job. There's a lot of people who are sure that things will just work out for them, because they don't need to teach at a prestigious school.

 

I'm probably pathetic (and definitely a procrastinator), but I"m actually ABD and will be on the job market in the fall, which means I have enough friends who have applied for jobs that I really get why the SBL forum people might have really dissuaded you. I mean, I know multiple people in Duke NT and Duke Theology, for example, who are on the job market for multiple years. And it's not because they're interested in getting a top job. They're happy to teach at a small school. And it's not that they don't have extremely impressive CVs. It's just the nature of the job market.

 

With that said, my advice to almost everybody on here is that you shouldn't do the PhD unless you're in at a legitmately top program. There are some amazing students and professors at the Indianas, Marquettes, Syracuses of the world, but getting a job out of those places is not fun. Getting paper accepted at conferences is harder, gettting external (and usually internal) funding is harder, getting key external readers is harder, etc.

 

I'll also echo the above post in encouraging you to go to a program that will set you up well for admittance into a top RELS PhD program. You sound very read for someone at your stage, but you'll really develop those interest in a good program that focuses on your topic (as opposed to a interdisciplinary program at this stage). All of which is to say in the nicest way possible, you're at a great point for where you're at, but when I read your interest I didn't mistake you for a current PhD student.

 

Finally, you mentioned that you're 25. You are young now, but think about what it'll be like when you've spend 2-3 years in a masters degree, and then 5-6 getting a PhD and can't get a job. Whether you have kids by that time or not, it's no fun to be unemployed in your mid-thirties, with little job prospects, and spent about a decade breaking even (at best) financially.

 

I won't be the guy who says you shouldn't do this, but don't take the idealism of this forum for reality. We're all idealists here.

[Marcion]

I am simply going to ask then... "What would you have me do?"

[xypathos]

I am simply going to ask then... "What would you have me do?"

Do what you want to do. We just want to make sure that you're fully aware of the realities.