Program Compairson & Decisions

[turktheman]

Hello Everyone,

 

I thought this would be a great topic to open: What schools are you currently deciding between? What considerations are you weighing? Where do you feel you will be Fall '14?

 

If you already made a decision between a few schools, please post as well in order to aid others in their decisions.

 

 

I have narrowed my five schools down to two: PTS and YDS. I've been researching and researching the differences. I really like PTS' ability to offer 1-credit pass/fail language courses to keep my Greek and Hebrew sharp as a I finish a second master degree without the stress of getting an "A" in them. I also like its location, but I hear its winters are harsher than New Haven. However, Yale's University offerings are very attractive to me--even though they publish their course offerings very late (PTS seems to publish course offerings for the next two years). So, I know exactly what courses PTS offers, but YDS has yet to release the offerings. Money is not a big deal between both schools as it'll cost me the same to attend either.

 

The major question I have that is going to sway me is this: "Generally, do PTS graduates or YDS graduates fair better in PhD placement, especially in New Testament/Early Church programs?" Any insight into this question is greatly welcomed.

 

Thanks

[rabgogh06]

I'm at YDS. I would strongly encourage you to come here. I wouldn't worry about courses as determinative factor in decided where you should go. YDS also has pass/fail classes, so you can always take that if you prefer. But the grading system is not on an A scale anyway. It's H/HP/P. It is rare that any student here would not get into a PhD program, especially if they have that in mind as a goal from the beginning. Feel free to message me if you have any further questions and want insight from a student. 

[Lux Lex Pax]

My admittedly impressionistic take is that the PTS M.Div. has placed more students in better programs than the YDS M.Div. But that probably has more to do with the academic types going for the MAR at YDS, which has no analogue at PTS, rather than the M.Div. The lack of an MTS or MAR at PTS has the effect of lumping everyone together, both future ministers and future academics, which creates a weird division among PTS M.Div. students -- anyone who has studied at PTS knows what I mean. In short, PTS M.Div. over YDS M.Div., but I'd give a slight advantage to YDS MAR over the PTS M.Div.

Another thing to consider, the PTS New Testament faculty has seen quite a bit of turnover in recent years. It lost Gaventa and Ross to Baylor and Duke, respectively, though it has also lost others. Dale Allison was a good hire, but most of the newer NT faculty are young scholars, which could be both positive and negative. Positive in that they might not be as busy and might devote more time to students. Negative in that they aren't established names in the field, so their references would carry the same gravitas as Gaventa. I would probably still give the advantage to PTS just because it has a larger bible faculty and you could also benefit from the resources next door at the University.

[rabgogh06]

My admittedly impressionistic take is that the PTS M.Div. has placed more students in better programs than the YDS M.Div. But that probably has more to do with the academic types going for the MAR at YDS, which has no analogue at PTS, rather than the M.Div. The lack of an MTS or MAR at PTS has the effect of lumping everyone together, both future ministers and future academics, which creates a weird division among PTS M.Div. students -- anyone who has studied at PTS knows what I mean. In short, PTS M.Div. over YDS M.Div., but I'd give a slight advantage to YDS MAR over the PTS M.Div.

Another thing to consider, the PTS New Testament faculty has seen quite a bit of turnover in recent years. It lost Gaventa and Ross to Baylor and Duke, respectively, though it has also lost others. Dale Allison was a good hire, but most of the newer NT faculty are young scholars, which could be both positive and negative. Positive in that they might not be as busy and might devote more time to students. Negative in that they aren't established names in the field, so their references would carry the same gravitas as Gaventa. I would probably still give the advantage to PTS just because it has a larger bible faculty and you could also benefit from the resources next door at the University.

 

 

Yes - the MDivs do not typically apply to PhD programs, so there is less placement. But if an Mdiv was focused on the PhD goal from the beginning, that wouldn't be a problem. But I suggest just switching to the MAR when you get here, which is easy to do.

[Lux Lex Pax]

Yes - the MDivs do not typically apply to PhD programs, so there is less placement. But if an Mdiv was focused on the PhD goal from the beginning, that wouldn't be a problem. But I suggest just switching to the MAR when you get here, which is easy to do.

Why switch if it isn't a problem? Seems a bit contradictory.

I'd also want to check to see how easy the switch between programs really is, especially if you'd rather do the concentrated MAR.

[rabgogh06]

Why switch if it isn't a problem? Seems a bit contradictory.

I'd also want to check to see how easy the switch between programs really is, especially if you'd rather do the concentrated MAR.

Because the Mdiv program is broad and has other requirements that may not be necessary if one has the sole goal of PhD studies. The MAR would be very focused on a given course of study. But if one preferred to be "well-rounded" and receive the things an Mdiv has to offer, it still would not be a problem as long as you have the PhD goal in mind from the beginning. The point being: one needs good recs from Professors in the field to which you are applying, so an Mdiv needs to be intentional about setting up more meetings etc, since they'll have less classes with these Professors. 

Edited March 24, 2014 by rabgogh06

[theophany]

Because the Mdiv program is broad and has other requirements that may not be necessary if one has the sole goal of PhD studies. The MAR would be very focused on a given course of study. But if one preferred to be "well-rounded" and receive the things an Mdiv has to offer, it still would not be a problem as long as you have the PhD goal in mind from the beginning. The point being: one needs good recs from Professors in the field to which you are applying, so an Mdiv needs to be intentional about setting up more meetings etc, since they'll have less classes with these Professors. 

 

As someone in the MDiv program at YDS who has been admitted to a doctoral program, I would second this unless you have any inkling of doing ordained ministry. I made the MDiv work by configuring my electives carefully and developing relationships early on with faculty, but the MAR is more concentrated in fields with less work required outside of them. MDivs have to take preaching, a required church history sequence, an internship with practicum, ministry classes, a broad curriculum in general, etc.

 

Just for the sake of numbers, I know of three MDivs at YDS who applied to doctoral programs, and all three were admitted (two to their top choices).

 

And switching into the MAR concentrate is dependent on whether the faculty in that area approve of your switch. I know plenty of people who have done it.

Edited March 24, 2014 by theophany

[RivkahJ.]

I’m deciding between Emory (where I received 75% tuition) and YDS (where I received 55% tuition and it’s more expensive to live in New Haven ). YDS has the MARc in Second Temple and Collins, but the MTS at Candler does have Holladay and Newsom.

However, I’m concerned about Candler’s placement in top tier Ph.D. programs? (Specifically in New Testament/ Early Judaism programs). Should this be a concern?

I’ve been hearing different things. 

[rabgogh06]

I’m deciding between Emory (where I received 75% tuition) and YDS (where I received 55% tuition and it’s more expensive to live in New Haven ). YDS has the MARc in Second Temple and Collins, but the MTS at Candler does have Holladay and Newsom.

However, I’m concerned about Candler’s placement in top tier Ph.D. programs? (Specifically in New Testament/ Early Judaism programs). Should this be a concern?

I’ve been hearing different things. 

 

There is not only Collins for 2TJ, but G. Sterling, H. Attridge, Hindy Najman, and Steven Fraade. The first two have done NT stuff, the second two Judaic stuff, but both are heavily involved in texts and projects that are especially elegant to Second Temple Judaism. And then of course there is al the rest of the NT, early christianity, and judaic faculty.

[Lux Lex Pax]

I’m deciding between Emory (where I received 75% tuition) and YDS (where I received 55% tuition and it’s more expensive to live in New Haven ). YDS has the MARc in Second Temple and Collins, but the MTS at Candler does have Holladay and Newsom.

However, I’m concerned about Candler’s placement in top tier Ph.D. programs? (Specifically in New Testament/ Early Judaism programs). Should this be a concern?

I’ve been hearing different things.

Those are both excellent programs. I think either choice can work for you. I'd give the edge to Yale, however, because it does seem to have stronger faculty in that particular area, and Yale generally places better than Emory. Before making a decision, you should probably try to get more money out of Yale by telling them about your offer at Emory and your worry about the significant increase in cost of living in New Haven as compared to Atlanta. It's doubtful, but they might kick in some extra money.

[Body Politics]

Seriously. Always try to gently shake the university money-tree. The worst that can happen is nothing falls out.

[theophany]

Those are both excellent programs. I think either choice can work for you. I'd give the edge to Yale, however, because it does seem to have stronger faculty in that particular area, and Yale generally places better than Emory. Before making a decision, you should probably try to get more money out of Yale by telling them about your offer at Emory and your worry about the significant increase in cost of living in New Haven as compared to Atlanta. It's doubtful, but they might kick in some extra money.

 

Don't count on it, though. YDS's financial aid is super tight right now and there's not more money to be had.

[sacklunch]

I would choose YDS over almost any other divinity school at this point, notwithstanding large scholarships elsewhere. In 2nd Temple/NT/HB reception they simply have a stunning number of resources between Div, RS, and NELC. If the difference is between 50% and 75% aid, I would still choose YDS. While I don't doubt that PTS has good placement rates for its students, I have encountered way more students in top ten programs that came from YDS than PTS (again, in those subfields). Also, while PTS does have the option for MDiv students to take a more 'academic' route, it is still an MDiv. You may end up doing an MDiv and a Thm/STM to be competitive. And if you are going that route, you might as well do an MAR and an MTS/MA afterwards (so says the secular guy!). If your interests are in both academics and ministry...well, you may have to pick one or the other if you expect to get into a top program after finishing just the MDiv (for example, people with MDiv's at top programs tend to have a ThD/STM, whereas it is more common to see one MAR/MTS or two 'academic' M*'s). I may get some hell for saying this, but our field is the only one where people expect to pursue academics and ministry within the degree. It makes sense why many choose to do so (some might argue you cannot have one without the other...?), but again, this usually necessitates additional time spent on the 'academic' end of things (of course some doctoral programs 'do' both, again though, rarely in 2nd Temple at the 'top' schools). If you want to be competitive at top programs, excluding issues of ministry, go to YDS, earn your MAR, and apply to both doctoral programs and (if you don't get in) MA programs in ancient history and/or classics. Admission requirements for EC are ruthless, in part because of its popularity as a subfield, but more importantly because of the language requirements. 

[turktheman]

Hey All,

I appreciate the comments and insights. I am visiting Yale next week to make a decision. I'm beginning to lean towards YDS--no small part from the great points brought to my attention here. I'm definitely wanting to do Phd work after this masters since I already have an academic MA from the University of Memphis in Egyptology where I concentrated on Late Antique Copticism/Archaeology. . I'm making a switch to a more general master degree--not just for a strong PhD application but also for marketability. At first Mdiv seemed right, so I applied across the board in that program. I'm certainly going to attempt a switch to the MAR at Yale.

Thanks again everyone

[rabgogh06]

Hey All,

I appreciate the comments and insights. I am visiting Yale next week to make a decision. I'm beginning to lean towards YDS--no small part from the great points brought to my attention here. I'm definitely wanting to do Phd work after this masters since I already have an academic MA from the University of Memphis in Egyptology where I concentrated on Late Antique Copticism/Archaeology. . I'm making a switch to a more general master degree--not just for a strong PhD application but also for marketability. At first Mdiv seemed right, so I applied across the board in that program. I'm certainly going to attempt a switch to the MAR at Yale.

Thanks again everyone

Let's talk when you're here. Send me a message with your name and info and I'll look out for you.

[george_lit]

If the difference is between 50% and 75% aid, I would still choose YDS.

I was in this position (50% at YDS Second Temple MARc vs 100% somewhere else) and I did NOT choose YDS. Where does the other 50% come from? Loans cover a PART of it IF they make them available, and they aren't giving guarantees about that. I'd agree with your advice if you were talking about making a choice between 80% at YDS and 100% somewhere else, but you're being a bit naive to think that everyone has funds at their disposal to cover the difference.

There are a lot of people in top programs who come from YDS and there are a lot who come from state colleges or other non-Ivy schools. If you're brilliant, you can succeed without the reputation of a big institution AND save yourself tens of thousands of dollars in debt.

Also, this is far too important a decision to make based on the advice of strangers in an online discussion forum. Talk to financial aid at YDS and ask where the rest of the $ would come from. Talk to professors at your school. But you don't know who you're talking to here or if they truly have your best interests in mind.

[turktheman]

I was in this position (50% at YDS Second Temple MARc vs 100% somewhere else) and I did NOT choose YDS. Where does the other 50% come from? Loans cover a PART of it IF they make them available, and they aren't giving guarantees about that. I'd agree with your advice if you were talking about making a choice between 80% at YDS and 100% somewhere else, but you're being a bit naive to think that everyone has funds at their disposal to cover the difference.

There are a lot of people in top programs who come from YDS and there are a lot who come from state colleges or other non-Ivy schools. If you're brilliant, you can succeed without the reputation of a big institution AND save yourself tens of thousands of dollars in debt.

Also, this is far too important a decision to make based on the advice of strangers in an online discussion forum. Talk to financial aid at YDS and ask where the rest of the $ would come from. Talk to professors at your school. But you don't know who you're talking to here or if they truly have your best interests in mind.

In my particular case, it is the difference between paying $600/semester to attend YDS versus $1400/semester at PTS. Of course, housing is more expensive in New Haven so the difference basically offsets.

[george_lit]

In my particular case, it is the difference between paying $600/semester to attend YDS versus $1400/semester at PTS. Of course, housing is more expensive in New Haven so the difference basically offsets.

Ok in my case it was a difference of $12,000.

[Alex Madlinger]

I turned down an offer I really like because the funding was only 50%, and I completely agree with your decision. Some people might have circumstances that make a 50% offer doable. I didn't.

[turktheman]

I know I couldn't afford much more than a couple of thousand a semester. I keep going back and forth on traveling to New Haven, but it'll cost me at about 1,000 to do so. That money would look a lot better invested in a computer and a new set of tires for the move.

[sacklunch]

Of course the money would come from loans. I don't expect most (any?) of us to have thousands of dollars laying around to study religion! Take that for what you will. Yes, people from state schools succeed all the time, many going on to top schools in fact. Do what you can, mates. <3