Give it to me straight about Claremont Graduate University

[1Q84]

43 minutes ago, ProfLorax said:

I see some full-time NTT jobs listed at $30-40,000 a year. Given the economic climate, it's just not sound advice to suggest that someone take $200K out in loans for a PhD in the Humanities. It's just not. This isn't about CGU as an institution or the people who graduated from there. It's about adjunctification, shrinking English departments, and anti-humanities rhetoric (if I hear another GOP candidate mention philosophy majors...). 

I know it feels like folks are attacking your institution, drugazi. I know it feels personal. But the advice isn't personal: it's prudent. That's all. 

Exactly. I apologize drugazi that you thought I was attacking CGU but I thought the fact that I linked you to the thread-that-shall-not-be-named was sign enough that I was trying to make a wider point about the academic job market.

If your statement had been that you wanted to take on $200,000 of debt to attend Berkeley, I'd honestly still say pass. But considering grads from that school tend to land TT jobs pretty easily, let's guesstimate a starting income of $50,000. Even if you paid down the $200,000 very aggressively with that income, (maybe $2000 a month), a federal student loan would still take you 138 months and cost an additional tens of thousands of dollars of interest. Many folks, I'm sure, would still take the Berkeley opportunity with those numbers considering the prestige and job chances. I wouldn't but that's just because I'm extremely debt adverse. 

Listen, if you have tons of savings or someone funding the last 30% of the cost, then feel free to ignore everything I said. But to take on $200,000 + in loans for a slim chance at a <$50,000 salary (because that's what's common to most grads from schools outside of the "Top 20") is really just foolish. Nothing personal.

[dr. t]

Lorax, you're pitching this like it's a new problem; the job market has been absolutely crap since the 1970s. Yes, the current climate is even worse, but it's been a bad decision to go to any non-funded program for over forty years.

In 2015, institutions that do not offer full funding, including a livable stipend, are, frankly, predatory, on par with the worst of the for-profits in effect if not in intent. They exist to enable their students to trap themselves in cages of the students' own devising, and recruit (as we see in this very thread) by pitching the possibility of (extremely limited) success as the likelihood of the same. CGU clearly falls into this category, and it is right that it should come under attack. 

To the OP: a doctorate is a professional apprenticeship. It is, in other words, a job. Do not work for free.

Edited November 29, 2015 by telkanuru

[ProfLorax]

9 minutes ago, telkanuru said:

In 2015, institutions that do not offer full funding, including a livable stipend, are, frankly, predatory, on par with the worst of the for-profits in effect if not in intent. They exist to enable their students to trap themselves in cages of the students' own devising, and recruit (as we see in this very thread) by pitching the possibility of (extremely limited) success as the likelihood of the same. CGU clearly falls into this category, and it is right that it should come under attack.

I almost amended my post to include something like this. I agree 100%. Really, what I should have said is that our critiques of CGU are not focused on the graduates of the program but the program itself. A program may have and produce brilliant scholars, but if they don't fully fund their PhD students, then it just isn't as reputable as other programs that do. And, it's unethical as hell. 

[ExponentialDecay]

Taking out $200k for any degree anywhere is insane. The time when the labor market in the States or anywhere in the world for that matter could support the risk premium for that kind of a decision is long past, and ironically, in that time, that degree did not cost $200k. You're going to have to be making $300k starting out to pay down that kind of debt in 10 years - there isn't a profession in the world that pays that kind of money out of the gate. At a $50k professor salary, you're basically indentured for life. You may as well remortgage the house now to pay the tuition in cash because that will be a wiser financial decision.

 

I wonder if drugazi's mother knows that her daughter would take out $200,000 for a humanities PhD. I mean, hello, parenting?

[ProfLorax]

4 hours ago, ExponentialDecay said:

I wonder if drugazi's mother knows that her daughter would take out $200,000 for a humanities PhD. I mean, hello, parenting?

Feeling you until this right here.

[EmmaJava]

7 hours ago, ExponentialDecay said:

I wonder if drugazi's mother knows that her daughter would take out $200,000 for a humanities PhD. I mean, hello, parenting?

[EmmaJava]

I will say that I for one was a bit confused about the assumptions and conclusions being made based on your posts. This is not a defense, because I was also confused by your posts, and I guess others were, too.  But, speaking for myself, I didn't have the time to go back through and read the backlog thoroughly, and - here's another assumption - figured that those who were weighing in were doing a really diligent job of dissecting every little word from every post...because that's what I do when I do literature, and some of the responses here certainly give the appearance of very close reading. I have been an outsider/lurker to this conversation and I think that the clarification is constructive, thanks for providing it. 

[Guest]

 

Quote

I never said I would take on $200k in debt. Y'all should go back and read my posts.

 

Quote

 

Okay, not to split hairs here, but you did say:

"I'd pay $200k for a PhD if it meant I got a job afterwards. Much more important than fully-funded and no job.  "

 

Now, I know that PAYING $200k is not the same thing as taking on $200k in debt, but it kinda is, because I really don't think that most people thinking about an English PhD have $200k lying around to give to Claremont. Therefore, I think the implication here--that the people in this discussion are just putting words in your mouth--is quite dishonest. We didn't hallucinate this entire discussion.  

Moreover, I wouldn't recommend that people pay $200k to Claremont even if they DO have the money lying around. As we established in this post, a Claremont PhD is not exactly a path to a well-paying TT (or even NTT) job. And yes, you implied that as well--that $200k would be worth it if you got a job. The rest of us are saying: no, that's not true; and CGU doesn't seem to be placing its grad students right now, according to what we see on the internet. 

More importantly, people go to grad school for free and get a job. Why be the sucker who pays $200k for the privilege of competing for the same jobs with the guy who went to Yale and got the whole thing for free? It just makes no sense. 

Edited December 1, 2015 by my_muse

[Roquentin]

(my apologies in advance for going a bit off topic)

Canadian here. I have to ask. This $200k being tossed around - is this a realistic sum? When the thread first began, I assumed that this was a rhetorical figure. Would this actually be a reasonable assessment of the average cost of an unfunded PhD in English in the U.S. (recognizing of course that funding usually covers tuition, that different schools charge different fees, that few people, if any, I hope, will take on this much debt for their degree, and etc.)?

 

[Joan Callamezzo]

13 hours ago, drugazi said:

The three CC profs I named all make well in excess of $100k. Since they're public employees, feel free to look them up. (http://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/cerritos-college/). And I'm not sure why you think they're poor profs just because they're at CCs? I named these people, because I work for them... which was my point as to why I know about CGU.

That is not how I was using the word "poor." For someone posting on a forum about attending graduate school in literature your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired. 

[unræd]

On November 29, 2015 11:22:50 AM, 1Q84 said:

If your statement had been that you wanted to take on $200,000 of debt to attend Berkeley, I'd honestly still say pass. But considering grads from that school tend to land TT jobs pretty easily...

Not to diminish the institutional privilege and support that I'm well aware I have, etc etc etc--but Lord, if only that were the case!

(Which is another way of saying that there's no PhD program for which I'd go into that level of debt--or even just for which I'd fork over $200,000 I had lying around--either.)

[1Q84]

3 hours ago, unræd said:

Not to diminish the institutional privilege and support that I'm well aware I have, etc etc etc--but Lord, if only that were the case!

(Which is another way of saying that there's no PhD program for which I'd go into that level of debt--or even just for which I'd fork over $200,000 I had lying around--either.)

I wasn't ragging on Berkeley, to be clear.

I know that it's the common line nowadays that going to top tier schools in the US doesn't guarantee anything yada yada yada but is my claim that grads from Berkeley tend to land a TT job demonstrably not the case? Not being snarky, sincerely want to know. (I was, of course, making a comparative claim.) Judging from the placement record for the past couple of years, 4-5 TT positions seems pretty decent for the field.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Roquentin said:

(my apologies in advance for going a bit off topic)

Canadian here. I have to ask. This $200k being tossed around - is this a realistic sum? When the thread first began, I assumed that this was a rhetorical figure. Would this actually be a reasonable assessment of the average cost of an unfunded PhD in English in the U.S. (recognizing of course that funding usually covers tuition, that different schools charge different fees, that few people, if any, I hope, will take on this much debt for their degree, and etc.)?

 

According to the website, it costs something like $32k a year to go there. The tuition may decrease as you move out of coursework and into reading/dissertation hours, but over the course of 4-7 years, that could indeed add up. Throw in the cost of living in SoCal, and I'm guessing that $200k is a tame estimate. 

Even if CGU English provides full-tuition scholarships (and I'm not sure they do), the cost of living alone over the course of 4-7 years could bring one to the six-figure range. But I'm not seeing anything about any kind of support on the English department web page. I also did a search through the grad student handbook and found no hits for "stipend," "tuition," or "assistantship." The handbook makes one statement about the department's commitment to maintaining financial support for students, but I have no idea what that support entails. 

But no, to answer your other question, it is not typical for a humanities PhD to cost that much. Most come with full tuition waivers, stipends, and health benefits. If people take out loans, it's typically to cover living expenses (often in an expensive city or if one has children). I believe that CGU is a rare program in the sense that it expects people to pay. Even Berkeley, which was previously notorious for not offering a lot of aid to the majority of its enormous grad classes, has changed its ways and moved to guarantee aid (if I'm not mistaken). 

[ExponentialDecay]

It was a risky proposition, but a Glee gif and Darjeeling Ltd? It paid off.

[ExponentialDecay]

In regards to drugazi's stated examples, I did some quick Google research, and here are the interesting facts: outside of random community colleges, almost all of these people teach at Azusa Pacific University. Now, I don't know, maybe that's her alma mater (in which case it's still silly to suggest that it represents the whole of socal), but that's not even the interesting thing. The interesting thing is that they are all expressly affiliated with the Church, in that they are ordained or have MDivs and similar. Now, I know that the Church will contribute money towards your education if it will be in service of it. 

[Roquentin]

6 hours ago, my_muse said:

According to the website, it costs something like $32k a year to go there. The tuition may decrease as you move out of coursework and into reading/dissertation hours, but over the course of 4-7 years, that could indeed add up. Throw in the cost of living in SoCal, and I'm guessing that $200k is a tame estimate. 

Even if CGU English provides full-tuition scholarships (and I'm not sure they do), the cost of living alone over the course of 4-7 years could bring one to the six-figure range. But I'm not seeing anything about any kind of support on the English department web page. I also did a search through the grad student handbook and found no hits for "stipend," "tuition," or "assistantship." The handbook makes one statement about the department's commitment to maintaining financial support for students, but I have no idea what that support entails. 

But no, to answer your other question, it is not typical for a humanities PhD to cost that much. Most come with full tuition waivers, stipends, and health benefits. If people take out loans, it's typically to cover living expenses (often in an expensive city or if one has children). I believe that CGU is a rare program in the sense that it expects people to pay. Even Berkeley, which was previously notorious for not offering a lot of aid to the majority of its enormous grad classes, has changed its ways and moved to guarantee aid (if I'm not mistaken). 

 

Ok, that makes sense. Thank you!

(I'd never heard of CGU before this thread, and I'm still trying to wrap my head around the $32k/year fee. That's more than the tuition fees for my entire 6 year doctorate!)

[unræd]

On December 1, 2015 9:50:42 AM, 1Q84 said:

I wasn't ragging on Berkeley, to be clear.

I know that it's the common line nowadays that going to top tier schools in the US doesn't guarantee anything yada yada yada but is my claim that grads from Berkeley tend to land a TT job demonstrably not the case? Not being snarky, sincerely want to know. (I was, of course, making a comparative claim.) Judging from the placement record for the past couple of years, 4-5 TT positions seems pretty decent for the field.

No ragging assumed!

And Berkeley's placement is certainly as good as anyone else's--although an important thing to remember about the yearly figures is that students on the market now matriculated before UCB contracted their cohort sizes, so they're coming from a larger pool. The part that made me pause about your initial statement was less the "tend" than the "easily." But yes, I suppose given the probabilistic capaciousness of "tend" it's more or less accurate--my hesitance is just because of how hard the market nonetheless is on the friends here I have on it currently and for those here on the other side of that "tend," and I don't want to diminish that or make it sound like it isn't. 

And, to be fair, it's probably as much my own reflexive apotropaic tic--irl I never discuss future career possibilities without saying something like "assuming we should be so lucky to get jobs"--that I use to try to inure myself against even the possibility of the coming horror, and to try to disarticulate the fiction of meritocracy that being at a place like Cal can set up in your brain.

 

Edited December 3, 2015 by unræd