Social work PhD/Soon to be Phds Share!

[HopingforaSWphd]

Hi everyone,

 

There isn't enough information on here about social work phds. Please share information for hopeful social work phds about what you wish you had known during the application process, during phd, on job market, ect.

 

Here are some questions to get us started.

 

Was the Social Work Phd a good idea?

 

What careers do you want?

 

Do you feel like your degree is respected?

 

Do you have an MSW/ do you wish you did have one?

 

Any advice for those of us thinking about getting a SW phd?

 

 

 

Thanks!!!

[justastudent]

I originally earned a masters in family therapy towards the MFT license in California. After getting that and working in the field of social work for many years I realized I wanted to pursue the social work PhD to transition to doing research and teach. I then earned an MSW in management and planning before applying to any PhD programs. I will be starting a PhD program in the fall at a different school than I earned the MSW.

[HopingforaSWphd]

Any advice on applying? My top choices are Columbia and UPENN. I have an MPA (not an MSW- may do it at the same time as a PhD) and hope to be a social policy researcher.

[justastudent]

In your case, my advice would be to make sure you can clearly demonstrate your commitment to the field of social work. I am unbelievably passionate about social work. I was not so passionate about therapy. I made a strategic decision to pursue the MA in counseling psychology, but I paid a price for picking a degree in something I wasn't completely sure I wanted to pursue a career doing -- although I have absolutely no regrets about the education I received.

As far as application advice I could not tell you more than the typical response. Make sure you submit your best package possible and apply to as many places as you can. If you are young enough, be willing to apply to more than one application cycle. Beyond that, I have no true understanding about the behind the scenes admissions process.

Feel free to pm me.

Edited May 20, 2014 by justastudent

[newjourney]

I am planning to apply for a PhD in SW this fall. I have a family, so relocation isn't really an option right now as we will be relying on my husband's income. There is only one program here in my city, so that is the only one I am applying to. Although there is another school that has an interesting Sociology PhD program. But I identify as a social worker, and the sociology program is 5-7 years. I would hope to get out of SW in 4. (This is all assuming my application is successful). My goal would be to become a professor (yes, and relocate the family) or do policy/research. So I am looking for research skills in particular. But I would love to hear from others about the SW PhD -where does it lead to? Is it respected? Same questions as HopingforaSWphd posted

Edited June 6, 2014 by newjourney

[hmsw2013]

Hiiiii

 

 

Im in my last year at Fordham and will be graduating in 2015 with my MSW. I'm interested in applying for my PHD in SW at only one school and thats Columbia . Im not interested in teaching at all. Mostly interested in policy/admin . I too would like to hear from PHD hopefuls 

[TheCrow]

I'm applying to MSW/PhD programs without a prior graduate degree in the upcoming year. I'm also interested in policy and research. I agree that there's nowhere near enough information about applying to PhD programs.

[TheCrow]

We've already have this conversation via private message about 18 months ago. Given the organization of the field, it makes no sense for me to take large amounts of debt for the MSW, a degree that on average would pay much less than my undergraduate degree, and would not teach me to research skills I would need for the type of job I would want if I don't eventually get a job in the academy as I intend. Should I do so and then go to a PhD program, those loans would continue to accrue interest while in the PhD program (since subsidized loans have been eliminated at the graduate level). You could--and have--advise to go to a cheaper regional public school, but these programs not only seem not to pretend to offer macro work, but indeed have lower acceptance rates than flagship public and top private universities that offer macro-level courses (and offer PhDs, meaning there's more research to get involved in). Such programs mostly intend to take those working full-time in social services in the area, train them up to the next level (usually almost exclusively in clinical methods), and then return them to the local environment. Their acceptance criteria follow from this mission, so I may not even be particularly competitive. In fact, one of the full professors at the MSW program at a regional public university in my state that you recommended (as I have already mentioned) told me not to come to their program because I will not find the training I'm looking for, and recommended her alma mater instead.

 

It would make far more sense for me to do one or two years after the MSW while I work on my dissertation (even if it extends my PhD program), or even do two years of practice after the PhD.

 

According to Unfaithful Angels, there's a big division in social work between faculty interested in clinical methods and those interested in research and policy--and both need each other. Policy and research needs the clinical people because that's where most of the demand is, as well as external grants; clinical people need the policy and research people to legitimate that the field is not just psychology under a different name (and lower price tag).

 

Social work also seems to suffer from a lack of specialization and division of labor that other fields (e.g., education, law, business) have long since arranged. How much sense does it make to do at least two years of full-time work after a bachelor's degree (to qualify for many regional public MSW programs), take on debt for a two-year MSW (sold as an "investment in your future"), work two more years full-time, then move way off to get a PhD, then move way off again for your first faculty position?

Edited June 13, 2014 by TheCrow

[justastudent]

Hi Crow. Who are you referring to? just curious.

I would have to disagree with you on one particular point. I studied for the MSW under a few certain professors who were proud to boast about never having performed social work. I was not pleased nor impressed with their disdain for doing the thing they were supposed to be training me to do. Also, had I not had social work experience before the MSW I would not have had the personal experiences to match to the theory I learned in class. That said, we all learn differently. This was just my experience. Best of luck in your apps.

[TheCrow]

I'm referring to the poster before me, who is a professor of social work. The differing organization of doctoral work in different fields has to do in part epistemology. If I were to hire someone to teach clinical practice courses, it would make sense for me to higher someone with years of work. In terms of organization, social work is organized most similarly to nursing, where the BSN is required for nursing (and for admission to the MSN or PhD) and where those who hold a degree in a different field can earn accelerated BSN or BSN/MSN degrees. The result can be to either more or less rush someone through the PhD after years of practice as a pro forma approach so that everything looks as it it supposed to (much like the field of education is notorious for having poor methods or and more or less stapling pages of regressions together and calling it a "dissertation" or many nursing "PhD" programs) or to divide labor so that you have those who produce new knowledge and those responsible for instructor on the basis of years of applied experience (as law does: you have tenure-track professors of law, most of whom have never been "real attorneys," and clinical professors from the field).

 

The epistemology of social is ostensibly a posteriori, as seen in books like Social Work in the American Tradition. Here, we can clearly trace the history of the formation of social work programs as primarily charity workers who organized to provide training to entering members of early case management, determining and managing the "worthy poor." Those with applied experience of many years then became the instructors at these schools like the New York School of Philanthropy (now Columbia University School of Social Work), which would later lead most such programs to affiliate with university and formalize the credentialing process that we see today in the BSW and MSW and their appertaining structures (in particular, CSWE).

 

One of the problems is that the MSW is the terminal practice degree in social work, while the PhD degree in the terminal degree in research. This is dissimilar from law (where most professors only hold the JD, the terminal degree) and business (where this distinction is similar, but very few people hold both the MBA and the PhD since they are intended to accomplish very different tasks). However, social work wants everyone to hold both degrees, even though the PhD is not accredited by CSWE and represents vastly different things at different schools. Like nursing, at many lower-ranked schools, the PhD in Social Work does not represent a traditional PhD, but an advanced practice degree under a different name (which was more appropriately named the DSW, or Doctor of Social Work and, in nursing, the DNP, or Doctor of Nursing Practice). However, the PhD has come to replace EdD, DSW, and DNP degree at many places since it is a higher-status degree. Ironically, however, these sort of camouflaged degrees, despite the name PhD, are not intended to prepare their holder for academic work or even independent research. The problem then is that the formalized academic apparatus wants social work to conform to other fields through the doctoral process, based on independent scholarship and not advanced practice. But there's debate on what this should look like and it makes sense that those engaged in clinical and casework are going to focus on the importance of years of practical experience, while those in policy are going to focus on the importance of economic modeling, social theories, and the like--not years of practical experience.

 

Importantly, the requirement of the MSW to teach "practice courses" means that social work also cannot hire many scholars from other disciplines who may be better trained in certain areas, but must reproduce from within. I think that Michigan's doctoral program has one of the best attempts at solving this, by providing a joint PhD in social work and another social science discipline. Relatedly, the MSW prepares students for psychotherapy, case management, and perhaps community organizing, but not real policy work--it does not have the public administration, economics, statistics, and research focus to accomplish that task because it is not intended to. But, the field of social work cannot address social problems in earnest if it cannot also engage meaningfully with policy in a way that is not organized based on someone who is a clinician or caseworker happening to engage in macro-level practice on the side.

 

There are a number of competing perspectives here. Some would argue that the argument between micro- and macro-level social works has been quelled and that there's sort of an uber social worker who is expected to practice at all different levels. The result there is usually that the term "social worker" really represents a clinical or case worker who engages in macro-level work on the sides. It is difficult to try to professionalize what is ultimately a quite political role for those who are engaged in policy work and challenge macro social structures. It is also difficult to distinguished a professionalized macro-level social worker from competing fields like public administration. In Social Work in the American Tradition, Nathan Cohen argued in passing that those engaged in private clinical practice aren't social workers at all! And in Unfaithful Angels, the authors point out a growing trend of the use of MSW-level social work to provide private psychotherapy to the middle class and not to engage with social problems in any real way. This is being supported by third-party reimbursable billing, restrictions of the use of title through NASW lobbying (consider that it's not possibly to engage in the unauthorized practice of social work unless one calls oneself a social worker; social work does not have a distinct body of knowledge that characterizes its members practices and distinguishes them from others who provide psychotherapy in legally meaningful way, compared to attorneys and physicians), and the like through which there's a dangerous possibly of social work coming to be merely a cheap psychology--focusing on the individual and problems within his or her control in away that reaffirms the existing power structure and distribution of economic resources and political power.

Edited June 17, 2014 by TheCrow

[HopingforaSWphd]

IMO combo MSW/PhD programs are a very poor idea. You need post-MSW experience in social work, at least two years. If you want to do policy, it is very helpful to have post-MSW experiences in programs that use policy. If you want to teach, schools give strong preference to graduates that have at least 2-years post MSW experience, and CSWE requests it for instructors who will teach any practice classes. Some schools define practice classes broadly, to include research.  Your PhD curriculum will be grounded in practical application if you have post-MSW experience that you can use to apply the concepts. Of the students that completed a sw PhD with me, the ones without two years MSW are lingering in low-paying contract work or have returned to MSW-level practice positions to get the experience.

 

Hi Social Work PhD,

What about doing a PhD without the MSW. If I already have an MPA? I want the PhD so I can become an social policy researcher not so much to teach... have you seen people who have come in with a related masters and opt not to get the MSW?

[TheCrow]

You might want to see "Should Doctoral Programs Graduate Students with Fewer than two Years of Post-Msw Practice Experience? No!" and a response, "Should Doctoral Programs Graduate Students with Fewer than two Years of Post-MSW Practice Experience? Yes!", both in the Journal of Social Work Education. I guess a lot of what matters is what you mean by "social policy researcher." (e.g., are you looking for a tenure-track job in social work?). (As well as Shore, B., & Thyer, B. A. (1997). Should non-MSWs earn the social work doctorate? A debate. Journal of Teaching in Social Work, 14(1/2), 127-145.)

Edited June 24, 2014 by TheCrow

[HopingforaSWphd]

I'm interested in either working in policy institutes, federal government/ state government as a researcher. I wouldn't mind getting a tenure track position if its at  R-1 institute and focused on policy and theory. thanks so much for these resources. I will read them!

 

You might want to see "Should Doctoral Programs Graduate Students with Fewer than two Years of Post-Msw Practice Experience? No!" and a response, "Should Doctoral Programs Graduate Students with Fewer than two Years of Post-MSW Practice Experience? Yes!", both in the Journal of Social Work Education. I guess a lot of what matters is what you mean by "social policy researcher." (e.g., are you looking for a tenure-track job in social work?). (As well as Shore, B., & Thyer, B. A. (1997). Should non-MSWs earn the social work doctorate? A debate. Journal of Teaching in Social Work, 14(1/2), 127-145.)