Another "no one to ask for an LOR" Topic

[jalison]

I go to a really big university that is known for treating its UG students as "numbers". Most of my classes have been 200 students+. Also, I went on exchange last year so wasn't able to solidify any connections with professors at my own school during the second half of the year. I am applying to European schools so I have to submit most of my apps by early January. I basically have no one to ask for an LOR because none of my profs are accessible - if you went to office hours you were either there to ask a specific question or you were wasting your professors time. I am also applying to ~10 masters programs so this would be asking a lot of the prof.

I have a few decent options but nothing outstanding, I'm wondering if someone can offer some advice. 

 

Options:

 

1) asking a professor from my exchange school -

PROS: the classes were small and I did good work (especially in comparison to many other exchange students who slack off), I think it might look good to have a letter from my international experience?  

CONS: I only knew the professors for a short period of time, I didn't participate as much as I should have, no personal relationships (they didn't even have office hours at this school), I live on a different continent so coordinating the letters might be more difficult

 

2) I did a one month long summer language course (for which I received a grant) -

PROS: I participated a lot, was always there, had the best mark in the class, might be a good way to show off the fact that I got a semi-presigious grant

CONS: the teacher wasn't a professor so its not very academic, was only a month long course, I'm not actually sure she speaks English because we only communicated in the language of study...

 

3) last year I had to ask a professor for a LOR for the program for which a received a grant... -

PROS: I did really well in his class, he is a well known academic and tenured professor 

CONS: I took the class in my second year

BIG CON: when I asked for the LOR last year he made a HUGE deal about me not ever coming to office hours and now being annoying and asking for an LOR (which he eventually gave me) - he basically made me cry it was so terrifying

 

4) a prof from a seminar this semester

PROS: the class is only 25 people (hallelujah) so I can participate more and he can get to know me academically

CONS: I don't want to come off like I'm only coming to his office hours in order to get an LOR - these are due kind of soon so I would have to forge a relationship ASAP and I feel like it comes off annoying to be like "hey wow so interested in your research, btw can you please help me"

 

TL;DR: I have no one to ask! I know this is my fault because I never reached out but at my school it is hard to do so. Please help me in any way possible

[lzs]

Is there a reason you absolutely HAVE to apply while still an undergrad? Many adcoms see it as a plus for applicants to have had some time outside of school. You could a) try to develop relationships with your second-semester profs and take community college classes after graduating and try to get letters from your professors there.

Also, do you just not have enough, or do you have literally no one? If the latter, that suggests that you have never been involved in research, or else your advisor would be a potential recommender. And if you have no research experience, you're unlikely to get in to grad school anyway (at least in every field I know of), so you might as well rethink your timeframe.

[bsharpe269]

I agree that given your lack of relationships with faculty that you would be best to take some time off. I think you should really evaluate why you havent been able to form these relationships beyond just stating that you went to a really big university. I did too so I do understand that at big schools, you really do have to go out of your way to impress professors but there are opportunities. For example, as mentioned above, research! What is your reserach experience like? If you have done a project and put tons of effort into it then that PI should be an automatic letter writer. Also, even in big classes, professors always notice the top grade in the class. They always notice the students who bring any suggested extra credit or even extra practice problems in the textbook to office hours to ask questions. Internships are a great way to meet people (not academics but industry people) for letters. Have you TAed at all? That is another easy way to get closer with professors. Can you do some of these things your last semester and try to apply next year? Great letters do make a huge difference in the application process!

[victorydance]

Major incongruity here:

 

"I basically have no one to ask for an LOR because none of my profs are accessible - if you went to office hours you were either there to ask a specific question or you were wasting your professors time." > "when I asked for the LOR last year he made a HUGE deal about me not ever coming to office hours."

 

Sorry, but that just does not compute. On one hand you say that going to office hours isn't kosher at your university, then on the other your prof behaved in a way that was completely counter to that statement.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that office hours are held for students to be able to access their professors irregardless of how big your university is. Whether it is to ask about course material, ask them about their research, ask about the field they do research in, or inquire for research opportunities: office hours are always kosher. 

 

Now, going to office hours can be daunting, but you will never get good LORs if you don't go to them. Full. Stop. The way to get good letters is to be involved in some capacity one-on-one with them, whether that is research or taking some kind of independent study with them. Even just getting to know them on a more personal level is better than nothing.

 

I suggest you forget about applying to grad schools at this moment and focus on getting research experience and cultivating good letters during your senior year. I actually didn't nail down the letters I have in my arsenal now until senior year. I mean I had some leads, but I really solidified three letters all from research avenues in my final year. Also do an honours thesis, that is a full-proof way of getting at least one letter.

 

I frequently read a blog that has a really good post on this subject. I highly recommend reading it and applying the tips it offers:

 

How to Acquire Strong Letters of Recommendation

[jalison]

Is there a reason you absolutely HAVE to apply while still an undergrad? Many adcoms see it as a plus for applicants to have had some time outside of school. You could a) try to develop relationships with your second-semester profs and take community college classes after graduating and try to get letters from your professors there.

Also, do you just not have enough, or do you have literally no one? If the latter, that suggests that you have never been involved in research, or else your advisor would be a potential recommender. And if you have no research experience, you're unlikely to get in to grad school anyway (at least in every field I know of), so you might as well rethink your timeframe.

For my school, the only way to be involved in research is to be an Honours student and with my major and double minor it was suggested that I don't do Honours because of my course load - also I don't think that a good reference from a community college would look better than an average reference from a prof from one of the top 30 schools in the world.

 

 

 What is your reserach experience like? If you have done a project and put tons of effort into it then that PI should be an automatic letter writer. Also, even in big classes, professors always notice the top grade in the class. They always notice the students who bring any suggested extra credit or even extra practice problems in the textbook to office hours to ask questions. Internships are a great way to meet people (not academics but industry people) for letters. Have you TAed at all? That is another easy way to get closer with professors. Can you do some of these things your last semester and try to apply next year? Great letters do make a huge difference in the application process!

As mentioned above, to do research at my school you have to be in the Honours program, ditto for TAing

 

Major incongruity here:

 

"I basically have no one to ask for an LOR because none of my profs are accessible - if you went to office hours you were either there to ask a specific question or you were wasting your professors time." > "when I asked for the LOR last year he made a HUGE deal about me not ever coming to office hours."

 

Sorry, but that just does not compute. On one hand you say that going to office hours isn't kosher at your university, then on the other your prof behaved in a way that was completely counter to that statement.

 

 

I suggest you forget about applying to grad schools at this moment and focus on getting research experience and cultivating good letters during your senior year. I actually didn't nail down the letters I have in my arsenal now until senior year. I mean I had some leads, but I really solidified three letters all from research avenues in my final year. Also do an honours thesis, that is a full-proof way of getting at least one letter.

 

I frequently read a blog that has a really good post on this subject. I highly recommend reading it and applying the tips it offers:

 

How to Acquire Strong Letters of Recommendation

Again, to do an Honours thesis I had to start a different curriculum in my second year which was discouraged because of my course load. Thank you for the link!! 

 

I really appreciate all the help and time that you guys put in to answering my query! I should clarify that its not that I don't have anyone to ask, its just that I don't have a strong relationship with anyone that I think would improve my application exponentially - the letters I could get would be more neutral and not application-enhancing. I believe that the rest of my application is strong (despite not being in Honours) due to my school's good reputation, my above-average GPA, my ECs, my various merit-based scholarships and grants from international governments, and my international experiences.  

 

I was honestly just asking for advice on who of the 4 options I should ask for a reference, not asking for advice on whether or not I should apply to grad school. If you have advice on that I would be open to it.

[victorydance]

Why would you need to be in an honours program to be involved in research?

[jalison]

Professors/PhD students who do research tend to (98% of the time) only choose honours students to help them with their research - its not a requirement but because honours students always apply to help with research they prefer them.

 

Edited: You also have to be enrolled in a research-topics class to undertake your own research - graduate and honours students are given priority for these classes. 

Edited September 17, 2014 by jalison

[lzs]

PhD programs mostly don't care about your ECs unless they're related to your Cs, so to speak. This isn't undergrad, they're not looking for people who are well-rounded, they're looking for people with the singlemindedness to devote their whole lives to the study of hyper-specific topics. I understand that it was logistically infeasible for you to do undergrad research, I'm not trying to put you down here, I just mean look at it from their point of view: If you haven't done research, how can they tell if you will be good at research? How can they judge your capacity to complete the marathon that is a dissertation?

Also I would rather have a letter from a no-name prof who knew me super well and loved me and would go to bat for me than from a prof at a top-30 department who would only be able to write "got an A in my class" and other generic impersonal stuff like that. I don't know if that's what you meant by "average," though.

[jalison]

Izs thanks! I am applying for masters programs and not PhD so do you think that makes a difference about my ECs? Also some of my ECs do relate to the Cs - i.e. working with a group that promotes health equity and applying for global health programs. 

 

What I meant by "average" was generic - you understood that correctly - just a cookie cutter "they wrote an interesting paper and got an A" and not anything about my actual abilities as a student. 

 

Also as far as the research thing goes, this is a masters with a thesis but at the schools I am applying to there tend to be 2 different types of masters: research masters and "selective" masters which tend to have more a focus on course-work and doing an internship. I am avoiding applying to research-heavy masters programs due to the fact that, as stated, I have no formal research experience. 

[lzs]

Oh I see! Well that's good, I don't know as much about masters programs since they vary so much, but it sounds like you're on the right track applying to programs that are a better fit for your background and experiences.

[hj2012]

Out of your options, number 4 seems to be the best one, unless either 1 or 2 are faculty at a university in the country you're applying to. Good luck.

[bsharpe269]

Alright well in that case I would ask 1,2 and 4. I definitely wouldnt ask 3. I understand where you are since I was in a similar situation before my masters since as an undergrad, I did not put the effort into building relationships with professors that I should have. I think that as an undergrad, I didnt really get how to do this and I didnt really feel passionate about my major which was obvious to professors. I basically did what you are doing and tried to dig up people that I knew well enough to write generic letters at least. That got me into my masters program so it can work for you too.

 

Now that I have made a lot more effort as a masters student, I have found that asking for letters is actually the easiest part of my PhD applications. I recommend you put a lot of effort into this during your masters for networking, advice, and encouragement from people in your field. I have found it a bit impossible to produce enough research to completely impress my PI AND be a stand out best student in every of my classes so I have found it more useful to indetify a few professors who my personality or research interests really click with and show them my best work. For these professors, I make sure I get A+s on all assignments, read their research and discuss it with them, participate heavily in class, etc. Doing this has drastically changed my academic experience since I feel that I could go ask one of many different professors for advice at any time and feel completely supported. Creating this support system is NOT at all something that comes naturally to me due to my shyness and tendency to worry that I am annoying or inconveniencing professors (which is something I think you also experience). Professors are actually also extremely interested in you, just like you are in them so try not to think like that. Anyway, if you have any questions about this, feel free to ask since this isnt something that comes easily to everyone but is a really important part of grad school.

[hj2012]

bsharpe has really great advice. Also, you might also consider breaking up your letters among 2-3 writers if you feel uncomfortable asking one person for ten of them.

[callista]

Re: option 1 - I did that, only I'd taken a course with that professor for a full academic year.  She did write a letter for me.  This was back in 1996 when the applications were still mostly on paper.  I airmailed all the materials to her.  Try getting in touch with 1.  But definitely work on 4.

[jalison]

Thanks callista, hj2012, and especially bsharpe - I knew someone would understand where I was coming from and I'm glad to hear that the generic letters got you in - this gives me more hope than some of the previous replies did! 

 

I definitely now understand the value of having a relationship with a prof but in my first and second years especially I excelled academically but didn't think there was anything I needed to do beyond this. Believe me when I say I have learned my lesson and am turning it around (hopefully just in time!).