How Do You See My Chances? Soc of Medicine, Science

[JohnBom]

Hi,

I am completely new here. I arrived to the forum because I am slowly beginning to freak out about the fact that I am going to have to start thinking about grad school in pretty concrete terms. I am pretty sure that I want to study Soc of Science, Knowledge, Medicine. It would be really great if you could help me assess my chances. I don't want to apply to too many programs because I can't afford it.

Here are the basics of my app:

GPA 3.6

GREs 700 and 700

Excellent LoR (I have worked for my undergrad department for four years)

I had two research internships during my time in college - one in Ann Arbor and one in Chicago.

But-

I have not published

Writing sample probably not that great

I am an international student. I dont know if thats going to make any difference.

I am looking at UW-Madison, Berkeley, HASTS (MIT), JHU, Columbia, UMich, UPenn, Chicago, Vanderbilt, Emory

Thanks!

(Any other word of advice would also be greatly appreciated.)

[hoobers]

It's really hard to divine anyone's chances of getting into a program from just the stats. Your stats seem all right, and I don't think anyone expects undergrads to have publications (though they help). Your LoRs are your strongest point -- if your undergrad program is respected enough (and the letters are from well-known sociologists) then you're in a very good shape. But the process of admission is qualitative and chaotic enough that I don't think anyone can tell you whether you'll get in to your top-choice programs.

The personal statement matters a lot, so put in a lot of work into that. Talking to the programs that accepted me this year, I was quite shocked by how seriously they considered the match of interests between me and the faculty. So, figure out your interests really well and describe them (and your fit) compellingly. Read faculty publications, find the ones you like, show that you are aware of them. I would strongly advise against making up a fit where one wouldn't exist, because your start in the PhD program will be based on that fit, and it could really suck if the fit wasn't actually there.

[hoobers]

Oh, and being international unfortunately makes a difference to public schools (like Berkeley) because you will cost them more. I don't think this is the case with private programs.

[jortylander]

Your record seems very strong. You have good GRE scores, "excellent" LoRs, and you have a general idea of what you want to study. I'm not sure how good the school you are in is, but that is also important. Top 10 grad schools usually take 90% of their students from top 20 undergraduate schools (that's a guess, of course, but probably a pretty accurate one). Not having a publication is no big deal; it is of course a big plus, though. But having a weak writing sample IS a problem.

Note that you'll easily get into some of the weaker programs you're applying to, even with a less-than-great writing sample. But the top schools will want excellent writing samples. That will "compensate" for your lack of publications.

Your personal statement is indeed very important. But note that different departments care about different things. I'm sure some of the lower-ranked programs would love to have you even if you write the most inarticulate, thoughtless personal statement, given your record. For some schools, a minimum 1400 on the GRE is almost necessary. Top ten schools, particularly ivies, care about letters of recommendations from "big names" in the field. For others, all they care about is well-articulated research interests. So it's very possible you'll get accepted and rejected by schools of equal tier, depending on your strengths/weaknesses.

Here is my advice, and here's where I disagree with the above poster. "Program fit" is not as important as most people think, in my view--at least not for most people. For some people, who are interested in very narrow areas and will likely maintain those narrow interests within the next six years of a PhD program, than program fit is pretty important. But even for those people, I would recommend being more flexible. At the end of the day, your faculty advisor is going to have a limited role in your dissertation and overall research. They'll advise you, but you'll have to come up with the originality, methodology, and do the writing. They will provide you with resources, but ultimately, the best graduate students are "Internals" on the locus of control scale. You have to have self-confidence and do work on your own. You need to have a solid understanding of theory and methods, be independent, and be willing to disagree with professors 20-30 years your senior. So, if I was you, I'd apply primarily based on two factors: (1) "personal satisfaction", which includes concerns with being near family/friends, girl/boyfriend, weather, city, idiosyncrasy etc. and (2) the job placement record of the university (this includes ranking factors, prestige, etc.).

Program fit should not be one of the more important factors, in my opinion, and contrary to what many smart people on here think. Most respectable programs will have experts in most areas, especially your areas of interest. Good luck!

[JohnBom]

Thanks to both of you. Very helpful!

I didn't realize that the school I am in is going to be a strong factor. I am not in any of the top 20. In fact, I go to one of those small liberal arts colleges, whose president decided to boycott the rankings and doesn't turn in any numbers to US News. We are first 50. Though the department consistently ranks in the first 20 in production of PhD.s Is that going to affect my chances negatively? I was hoping I could make up for it by the GREs.

I have listed 10 programs here. They have different strengths and all of them have a pretty (more or less) strong department in my field of interest. Should I narrow my list down? Is 10 an appropriate number of applications? I was thinking about shooting for six. What are your thoughts on that?

[Tritonetelephone]

Sorry to do a lazy composite post, but most of what I want to say has been touched on. I should start by saying, though, that a) I don't know much about your subfield; and my experience is probably different from most of the people on gradcafe because I went to a really crappy undergraduate university (#100 for soc, I think) and I did alright for myself.

being international unfortunately makes a difference to public schools (like Berkeley) because you will cost them more. I don't think this is the case with private programs.

This is true in my experience too. Private schools I looked at had way more international students than public schools.

It's really hard to divine anyone's chances of getting into a program from just the stats. Your stats seem all right, and I don't think anyone expects undergrads to have publications (though they help).

I agree. Pubs aren't a big problem, but they will give you an edge if you have them. I had a writing sample that I would have liked to publish but didn't end up working out, but in my SoP, I mentioned a specific goal to have X pubs by the time I finish my PhD. That might have helped, who knows.

Your LoRs are your strongest point -- if your undergrad program is respected enough (and the letters are from well-known sociologists) then you're in a very good shape.

LORs are really seriously considered, but I disagree that it heavily matters who writes them. I'm sure it helps, but a good LOR from a lesser-known sociology prof can still go a long way. I didn't apply to an Ivies though - I'm just speaking from my experience.

The personal statement matters a lot, so put in a lot of work into that.

Yes!

I would strongly advise against making up a fit where one wouldn't exist, because your start in the PhD program will be based on that fit, and it could really suck if the fit wasn't actually there.

Great advice. The best thing you can do is research your schools very thoroughly.

I'm not sure how good the school you are in is, but that is also important. Top 10 grad schools usually take 90% of their students from top 20 undergraduate schools (that's a guess, of course, but probably a pretty accurate one).

Maybe but not quite. Where you come from matters in that it serves as a "weight" to your GPA (a good school means your classes were probably harder) and provides some reliability that you learned everything you should have as an undergrad. So, yes, it is a big help but trust me: it can be overcome by a strong personal statement, LORs, writing sample, and GRE. Top 10 grad schools specifically may be more strict, but I focused on rankings within my subfield and got into the #3 school for sex/gender, so... Experiences may vary. I guess it just depends on the department. I just don't want you to be totally discouraged if you come from a not-so-great school. Focus on what you have control over (starting with your WS).

Not having a publication is no big deal; it is of course a big plus, though. But having a weak writing sample IS a problem. Note that you'll easily get into some of the weaker programs you're applying to, even with a less-than-great writing sample. But the top schools will want excellent writing samples. That will "compensate" for your lack of publications.

I wouldn't even risk that weaker programs will accept a bad WS. Have your profs review it. Show off your creativity and theory/methods skills!

Program fit should not be one of the more important factors, in my opinion, and contrary to what many smart people on here think...For some people, who are interested in very narrow areas and will likely maintain those narrow interests within the next six years of a PhD program, than program fit is pretty important. But even for those people, I would recommend being more flexible....At the end of the day, your faculty advisor is going to have a limited role in your dissertation and overall research. They'll advise you, but you'll have to come up with the originality, methodology, and do the writing. They will provide you with resources, but ultimately, the best graduate students are "Internals" on the locus of control scale.

I see what Jortylander is saying, but I would like to rephrase it for my advice. Program fit is, in my experience, very important to the school accepting you, so it's very important for applications. They want to see that you are a match to the school and that your work will be well-supported. However, it is even more important to attend a school that has plentiful resources and options outside of your narrow focus. You just never know how your interests may change and you want to make sure that you will have space and resources available to you to blossom into who you'll become. My new advisor isn't doing exactly the research I want to do, but he thinks what I want to do is really interesting and he knows enough about it to point me in the right direction if I'm in need of related literature or whatever. And there were lots of faculty members I would love to work with there, including very strong people in my secondary interests' areas. So apply with program fit in mind, but choose a school that will be as supportive and resourceful for you as possible. These are often things you can't get a clear picture on until you visit.

I have listed 10 programs here. They have different strengths and all of them have a pretty (more or less) strong department in my field of interest. Should I narrow my list down? Is 10 an appropriate number of applications? I was thinking about shooting for six. What are your thoughts on that?

I chose to apply to 10 departments because I wanted to increase my chances of admission and I could legitimately see myself attending any one of them (that's very important!). It was, however, expensive and time-consuming. I would advise applying to 3-4 "dream" schools, 2-3 medium-tier schools, and 1-3 "safety" schools... but only apply if you would seriously attend if they end up being your only option!! Try looking at the top 10-20 of your subfield; schools that are listed there but NOT in the top 10-20 of general sociology are probably great options for medium and safety schools.

[misterpat]

Make your writing sample great FTW

[jortylander]

I should clarify two things, regarding "program fit" and the undergraduate institution your coming from. First, program fit is absolutely important from the department's perspective. I hope I wasn't misleading in that respect. Departments often try to match applicants with faculty advisors before the student gets there. What I was saying is that is that in my opinion, it shouldn't matter too much for the applicant (you). That is, you should be willing to adjust your interest and show every graduate school you are applying to that you are the perfect fit for their institution. So that does involve intense research and good writing, but it's worth it. is it unethical? Not in the slightest. Graduate schools want to see you make an effort to show that you fit there, because that shows that you really want to be there, and that you'll be able to finish up in a reasonable amount of time. Now, is this good advice for every single applicant out there? Probably not. Some students, as I stated earlier, have very narrow interests and wouldn't succeed except in one or two places. But from what I have seen, these are the outliers.

On the second point, on undergraduate institution. It is quite important, in my view, but it's equally helpful if you graduate from a top 20 soc program OR a top 20 national program. As for small private liberal arts colleges, this is an exception to the rule, you'll be glad to hear. Most small pvt lib arts programs are just EXCELLENT, and provide far superior education than top ranked national universities. Top soc programs know this, so you're in good shape, in that respect. If you go through the backgrounds of grad students at top schools, you'll find that many of them come from liberal arts schools. Even lesser known lib arts colleges are probably valued by grads schools. They might be concerned with math records if you graduate from a lib arts college, but your score of 700 on the GRE is pretty good. So overall, I think you're in good shape.

[hoobers]

I just wanted to throw in a 3rd

[JohnBom]

Thanks for the discussion on program fit! That is something I thought about. I am not going to make up a fit, but I don't think it is going to be immoral, if I emphasize it. As long as I don't focus on a very narrow area, it probably couldn't hurt.. Could it?

Also, what do you consider to be a strong writing sample? Would you say there are differences between a strong college paper and a strong writing sample? Do they simply look for good analytical writing or should I pick something more creative? A piece of field work write up?

[Aeternalis]

Hello Astronautka, FWIW, I myself -- having applied to doctoral medical soc/public health programs -- had a VERY similar profile to yours and applied to some of the same programs (JHU, Columbia, UPenn, Vanderbilt) and was fortunate to have been accepted by all of them.

However, you have to take the forum's proferred advice with a grain of salt, some might denigrate your chances and other extol them (based on their own experiences). Ultimately, there area quite a few intangibles (SoP, research interests/fit/experience, Writing Sample) in this whole process which is a whole lot more arbitrary than many might think.

[jortylander]

Thanks for the discussion on program fit! That is something I thought about. I am not going to make up a fit, but I don't think it is going to be immoral, if I emphasize it. As long as I don't focus on a very narrow area, it probably couldn't hurt.. Could it?

Also, what do you consider to be a strong writing sample? Would you say there are differences between a strong college paper and a strong writing sample? Do they simply look for good analytical writing or should I pick something more creative? A piece of field work write up?

Astronautika, focusing on a narrow area of interest is probably a good thing, as long as you show that you have a good understanding of the broader context in which it fits and its overall significance as an area of study. Narrow can imply insignificance, so be sure to show why what you plan to study is important, if it is indeed "narrow".

In my opinion, there is a difference between a strong college paper (i.e. one for a class) and a strong writing sample. Of course, they can be one of the same, depending on what sort of class paper it is. The bottom line is that a strong writing sample develops a paper like a journal article would. It would show that you understand that scientific method and how to write an academic article, which indicates your potential to write a good dissertation. I guess some college classes put this sort of criteria for papers, but most sociology classes I have taken just require a good literature review. They aren't about production of new knowledge, which is what a good writing sample is about.

I'm not really sure of this, actually, so get some other opinions. Maybe grad schools wouldn't mind a typical soc course paper as long as it's well-written and theoretically sound. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter; you'll have to submit in your best piece of academic writing, so submit whatever you have. But since you're applying for next year, you have the time to write a paper that actually produces new knowledge and is in journal-article format by next December. I'd recommend that to improve chances.

[Tritonetelephone]

In my opinion, there is a difference between a strong college paper (i.e. one for a class) and a strong writing sample. Of course, they can be one of the same, depending on what sort of class paper it is. The bottom line is that a strong writing sample develops a paper like a journal article would. It would show that you understand that scientific method and how to write an academic article, which indicates your potential to write a good dissertation. I guess some college classes put this sort of criteria for papers, but most sociology classes I have taken just require a good literature review. They aren't about production of new knowledge, which is what a good writing sample is about.

I'm not really sure of this, actually, so get some other opinions. Maybe grad schools wouldn't mind a typical soc course paper as long as it's well-written and theoretically sound. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter; you'll have to submit in your best piece of academic writing, so submit whatever you have. But since you're applying for next year, you have the time to write a paper that actually produces new knowledge and is in journal-article format by next December. I'd recommend that to improve chances.

To input a second opinion: I agree 100%. Journal-type work is what they expect you to be capable of. The first year I applied, I sent in a very creative but not-so-professional college paper about my experience violating gender norms, though I cleaned it up by adding a lit review and methods section. The second year I sent in a semi-boring (cut most of the methods section for shorter length req's) but very analytical, nearly journal-quality write-up of some quantitative work I'd done, just to demonstrate the techniques I could do and the theory I could connect it with. MUCH better!! Looking back, it should have been obvious the first one wasn't going to cut it.

[JohnBom]

I attended ASA this year and met with a bunch of professors. All of them wanted me to apply to their program, but all of them expressed their concern with lack of funding, especially UCLA people. This is what my latest list is looking like, based on what I learned in SF.

UW - M

UMich

UPenn

Chicago

Brown

UCLA

Columbia

Stanford

Any of these strike you as an odd choice?

The agreement among faculty on ranking seemed to be that anything below top twenty will not get me a job. No matter how pretentious and elitist that sounds, I need to take it into consideration because, in the end, it will be them doing the hiring. Did you spend much time considering the placement rates, while making your decision?

[cogneuroforfun]

The agreement among faculty on ranking seemed to be that anything below top twenty will not get me a job. No matter how pretentious and elitist that sounds, I need to take it into consideration because, in the end, it will be them doing the hiring. Did you spend much time considering the placement rates, while making your decision?

Different field, but yes, absolutely you should consider placement rates. That being said, as long as the placement rates are at least similar between programs you're considering, you shouldn't worry about it. Looking at the schools on your list, I can't imagine anyone of them have poor graduate placement. Its more important that you attend a program where you can pursue research that you enjoy.