How important is research?

[yaguchi]

Hi!

 

I am interested in applying to graduate school as a special student (one semester or year) and I am wondering how important research is as a part of the application. I know it can strengthen an application, but should I consider it pivotal for being accepted to a popular program, or is it common to be accepted without much relevant research? What if you have other relevant experiences?

 

Thank you!

yaguchi

[GeoDUDE!]

My feeling is, by what you mean as "special student" meaning you are taking classes as a non degree student, then almost anyone can take these courses as long as they can pay for it.

[yaguchi]

Thanks for your reply! 

 

Are you referring to extension-type courses? I was thinking about regular courses with other graduate students, and in this case I am interested in typically very selective schools, so I'm not sure whether you can just pay up and walk in.

[GeoDUDE!]

Thanks for your reply! 

 

Are you referring to extension-type courses? I was thinking about regular courses with other graduate students, and in this case I am interested in typically very selective schools, so I'm not sure whether you can just pay up and walk in.

 

Extension-type courses are often the same ones that normal students take. They just register a different way. Many of my friends have done nondegree or certificate (like post-bacc) and they have said that they are in the same classes as normal students. In particular, the person who has told me most about this did nondegree at Columbia. 

[bsharpe269]

If you just want to take a class or two then research experience isnt important at all. If you want to get into a PhD program then it will be the most important factor in your application.

[TakeruK]

Not all schools will simply allow any student to pay the fees and take the class. I think it would really depend on each school and each program. The reason against allowing anyone to just pay the fees and take the class is that non-degree students would take up the instructor's time that the school might want them to use otherwise (on their own research, on advising students, on grading degree students). Similarly, many schools do not allow students to be self-funded for their programs (i.e. if they were not strong enough they get a fellowship from the school, then they are not going to be admitted).

 

Some programs with lots of money don't really consider money as the limiting factor on how many students they can accept. Instead, the limiting factor is actually often time. A professor with "unlimited" funding can only advise and/or teach so many students.

 

Finally, some school are fundamentally opposed to open learning and they think it "cheapens" the value of the degree if anyone has access to the course materials. I really really strongly disagree with this last principle!! (However, I think the other arguments above make a lot of sense).

[juilletmercredi]

Yes, I think generally speaking if a department allowed you to take classes as a non-degree student that research experience would not be important - however, many departments would not allow you to take classes as a non-degree student unless you were in some kind of non-degree program (like a certificate program).  Many would, though.  It would just vary from place to place.

 

In my selective PhD program I don't think we ever actually had any non-degree students in the grad-level classes.  Our post-bacc students were primarily there because they wanted to get a PhD in the field but lacked the undergrad preparation in the field, so they were usually taking undergrad-level classes.  There were some mixed grad-undergrad classes that had undergrads, post-baccs, and grad students - but the regular graduate-only classes wouldn't have taken a post-bacc student.

[TakeruK]

In my program the only non-degree classmates we have are staff scientists or postdocs that choose to take the classes. I think all staff members are allowed to take classes free of charge (but they can't count towards any degree) with permission of the instructor.

[yaguchi]

I feel very grateful for all the replies, thanks a lot!

 

I am referring to universities that explicitly state that they accept special students, for example Harvard's GSAS; does anyone have any idea if research plays a significant role in admissions in cases like this? 

[dr. t]

It does not - or at least, it didn't for me. At $5,000 a class, though, it's not a great deal without external means of financial support that aren't loans..

[GeoDUDE!]

Yaguchi,

 

You know, no one really knows since not many people do it. I would assume it still does not matter that much, because in my experience, undergradaute research does not play a big of a role in graduate admissions as people like to pretend. Sometimes it does, but when it does, its usually because the undergrad has gotten a strong letter from his/her research advisor or has made a significant impact ( IF > 3.0 ) publication. In the case where the research does help the student, they probably aren't applying to be a special student because they are a strong enough candidate to get funding and do research in a degree program.

 

My guess is they have an application section just so that they dont take on 1000 extra students and overload their classes. Even at a school like harvard, compared to actual graduate admissions I cannot imagine this being competitive. 

 

But thats just my guess, and everyone who answers will have a guess. You could find out by emailing some program coordinator asking how the application will be evaluated. If you were to email my advisor about my current program, for example, she would cite a holistic approach that includes some form of student experience, stats, and letters of recommendation. She might also state that the typical student in her lab has done a senior thesis or a few undergraduate research projects. But I have also seen students with strong stats and no research experience get into top 5 programs. 

 

It might totally even depend on what courses you want to take! For example, if you were to take math graduate courses, research experience would not matter at all since almost no math undergrads do any kind of meaningful research until their 3rd year of graduate school!  

 

 

Like telkanuru said, the best guess is that they will be happy to take your large amount of money you will pay harvard. I hope you aren't disappointed at the quality of the class though, because at top research schools, graduate classes are often after thoughts and you will be paying 5000 for it just because of a name. 

[dr. t]

Like telkanuru said, the best guess is that they will be happy to take your large amount of money you will pay harvard. I hope you aren't disappointed at the quality of the class though, because at top research schools, graduate classes are often after thoughts and you will be paying 5000 for it just because of a name. 

 

I wouldn't say seminars are afterthoughts, but yeah, I would have never have done it if I didn't have grants covering it. I don't even think you can really get a good LoR out of it - T1 professors are (in my experience) usually too busy for casual chats and only teaching 1 semester. Caveat emptor.

[yaguchi]

It does not - or at least, it didn't for me. At $5,000 a class, though, it's not a great deal without external means of financial support that aren't loans..

 

Thanks! It's expensive--but for me going for an entire degree would require more time and money, and it's not that I am looking for, hence my peculiar situation. Could you give me some more insights? What should you know if you are interested in applying as a special student? Do you know how competitive it is? I would love any tips! 

 

 

Yaguchi,

 

You know, no one really knows since not many people do it. I would assume it still does not matter that much, because in my experience, undergradaute research does not play a big of a role in graduate admissions as people like to pretend. Sometimes it does, but when it does, its usually because the undergrad has gotten a strong letter from his/her research advisor or has made a significant impact ( IF > 3.0 ) publication. In the case where the research does help the student, they probably aren't applying to be a special student because they are a strong enough candidate to get funding and do research in a degree program.

 

Thank you for your reply, you really seem to know a lot about this. I appreciate your wise words. 

 

I was thinking it would not matter nearly as much as it would if you were aiming for a PhD, for example. 

 

 

I wouldn't say seminars are afterthoughts, but yeah, I would have never have done it if I didn't have grants covering it. I don't even think you can really get a good LoR out of it - T1 professors are (in my experience) usually too busy for casual chats and only teaching 1 semester. Caveat emptor.

 

I know. It's not ideal. I am in a fairly rare situation, I think.

 

 

[dr. t]

I don't know about usual SSP applications. I was a student at Harvard Extension School and allowed to apply before graduation. I was also pretty much assured of getting in, so also a rare situation!

 

The best advice I have is: have a plan, and make it a good one. Who are you going to work with, are they on campus, are they generous with their time. Also, the things around classes (workshops, colloquia, networking, etc.) are WAY more important - and what you're really paying for at Harvard - than classes themselves.