Chance me for a M.S in geology/oceanography

[columbia09]

GPA: 3.83

 

Current UG School: One of the top state schools with a highly accredited geoscience program

 

Major: Double majoring in biology and geology with a history minor 

 

GRE: V:145 Q:145 (My weakness are standardized tests :/)

 

Research: Currently working on a senior thesis in geoscience and I'm also doing work in biology as well

 

Letters of Rec: Good, one is from my thesis advisor who knows all of the faculty members I contacted pretty well.

 

Schools applying to:

 

Stanford

Rice

Texas A&M

UT Austin

University of Massachusetts

Virginia Tech  

University of Nebraska

University of Wisconsin 

 

With the exception of my GRE the rest of my application is strong. None of the schools I'm applying to have cutoffs for the GRE and I really don't want to retake them. I rather spend time focusing on my classes, research, and personal statement. I would be happy if I can get into at least any of these schools. So what's my chance ?  

[Crucial BBQ]

Not sure about geology, but for oceanography your GRE scores are too low even though the programs may claim to not have a cut-off.  But, for oceanography UMass is probably your best bet here. 

[columbia09]

Not sure about geology, but for oceanography your GRE scores are too low even though the programs may claim to not have a cut-off.  But, for oceanography UMass is probably your best bet here. 

 

I thought the GREs didn't matter as much. Will they really reject me just based on my GRE ?  

[columbia09]

The only oceanography program I'm applying to is at Texas A&M btw All the other programs are in geology 

[GeoDUDE!]

The only oceanography program I'm applying to is at Texas A&M btw All the other programs are in geology 

 

 

For MS its a bit different: how to determine which MS student should get a TA?  GRE scores and GPA are usually done so that the process is objective as possible. 

 

Another thing to consider is that you are probably below the minimum requirements for the university, in regards to your GRE.  Its like having a 2.8 (or lower) GPA. While departments may not publicly list requirements, graduate schools (which have to accept you even if the department wants you) don't like taking students with less than 300 (less competitive schools) and 310 (more competitive schools) as a general rule. 

 

Stanford, Rice, VT, Wisconsin,  and UT austin are what i would call "top teir" level programs. Its very possible, because your GRE is so low, that no one will read your application unless you have a PI that really wants to take you on as a student and you have contacted beforehand. If you do contact him/her before hand, and you guys talk about research, you should let him/her know before you pay the application fee that you have a devastatingly low GRE. 

 

Perhaps you should talk to your current LOR/Advisor about this.  

 

To give you perspective on how competitive earth science programs are, a top 20 program in geosciences might have 10-20 open spots and receive 250-300 applications. The bigger programs (stanford,UT Austin) might have more applicants but also take a few more. 

 

Your from Penn State, so that will carry some weight, but I wouldn't disregard your GRE problem. Do your LOR writers know how bad you did? ask for their advice, as they take on graduate students. 

 

Another thing is that it should be pretty easy for you to raise your GRE above 300, which might go a long way. It seems your application is competitive without that GRE score, and if you can get past the cutoffs you would have a real good shot in my opinion.

 

Remember the things that you can control right now: GRE, Statement of Purpose, who writes your letters, and who to apply to work with. Get those right. 

[Usmivka]

I thought the GREs didn't matter as much. Will they really reject me just based on my GRE ?  

I don't believe they do for a PhD. I have at least one peer here (MIT/WHOI) with lower scores than that, but excellent research background, grades, and letters of rec. I don't ask around, so there could be others. For a MS you spend at least half your time doing coursework though, so your ability to start fast and succeed is important. I think your grades are plenty to offset your GRE, since they are more applicable, but I'm not making admission decisions.

 

Also, which UWis and which UMass?

Edited November 4, 2014 by Usmivka

[columbia09]

Madison and Amherst. That's what I'm hoping will happen, my GPA offsetting the GRE. This test shouldn't matter but it does apparently. I think retaking it will be a waste of time I don't improve on standardized tests as I've experienced with the ACT and SAT. I'm hoping to get into at least one program so it doesn't have to be Rice or Stanford

[columbia09]

Also geodude, didn't you get into a masters program with a 3.01 GPA ? I've seen on a website that people can get in with high GPAs but lousy GREs. I can not retake the GREs at this time the only thing for me now is to apply and see where I'll get in. Plus is this really "devastatingly low"? And no they don't. To be honest my advisor would probably tell me to retake it but as I stated before I think it's a waste for me to because I general don't improve on standardized tests. 

Edited November 4, 2014 by columbia09

[GeoDUDE!]

Also geodude, didn't you get into a masters program with a 3.01 GPA ? I've seen on a website that people can get in with high GPAs but lousy GREs. I can not retake the GREs at this time the only thing for me now is to apply and see where I'll get in

 

 

 I did (3.05) , but the program was not even close to as competitive as the one's you are applying to, you have probably never even heard of the department.  I also was in a different field, known for being a bit more rigorous than geology.  Its also important to note that 3.05 is above the minimum requirements, where as a 290 is considerably lower than most cutoffs.

 

I'm not saying you won't get in, I'm just saying that you would have been a no brainer for a lot of schools without that blemish.  Be at least prepared to have some sort of explanation for it. Its certainly something worth asking.

[columbia09]

 I did (3.05) , but the program was not even close to as competitive as the one's you are applying to, you have probably never even heard of the department.  I also was in a different field, known for being a bit more rigorous than geology.  Its also important to note that 3.05 is above the minimum requirements, where as a 290 is considerably lower than most cutoffs.

 

I'm not saying you won't get in, I'm just saying that you would have been a no brainer for a lot of schools without that blemish.  Be at least prepared to have some sort of explanation for it. Its certainly something worth asking.

 

Which is what I was going to ask next, should I include an explanation on my application ? I get panic attacks during standardized tests and I lose focus that's really the reason why I don't preform well.   

[GeoDUDE!]

Which is what I was going to ask next, should I include an explanation on my application ? I get panic attacks during standardized tests and I lose focus that's really the reason why I don't preform well.   

 

 

Talk to your advisors at school, they will know better than anyone else! I'm not sure.

[Usmivka]

Which is what I was going to ask next, should I include an explanation on my application ? I get panic attacks during standardized tests and I lose focus that's really the reason why I don't preform well.   

If I heard that as a member of an admission committee, I wouldn't take well. What is different about a standardized test and, say, fieldwork in a remote location (high stakes, limited time, one chance to get it right)? You'll be called on to act decisively yet carefully as a scientist, so don't shoot yourself in the foot by saying that you can't muster these job skills. I think it would be much better to argue (if you are really concerned enough about it to put into your statement of purpose) that a standardized test is a poor indicator of performance in the key skills you need to succeed as a grad student, but here are some good indicators and how you're rocking them... (this is where it is important to coordinate with your letter writers about their focus).

 

I haven't seen any specific cutoffs associated with those schools presented here. Assuming they don't exist/you are above them, you don't really have a choice about taking other avenues to evidence your ability to succeed--I doubt you could get a test slot between now and Nov 15 if it isn't already scheduled, forget improving in that amount of time. Whether you specifically call out your GRE performance or not probably depends on where you are applying and how you compare to the average applicant.

 

Edit: I agree with GeoDUDE! that these are mostly very competitive programs. A good GRE score is expected, and not giving yourself enough time to practice and retake if needed doesn't reflect well on you for an adcom doing an initial evaluation (I get you have valid reasons, and so would they if they had time to consider, but not everyone will). They get like 2 minutes to do these, and the easiest way to make their applicant pool manageable is to look at grades, test scores, and class standing. If you are lucky they might also read the intro of your SOP. Given the constraints on retaking the GRE, I think it would be worth directly contacting the education coordinators in your prospective departments to find out where this threshold lies in practice so you can focus on the schools where it won't be a roadblock.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Usmivka

[guttata]

What is different about a standardized test and, say, fieldwork in a remote location (high stakes, limited time, one chance to get it right)? 

 

Standardized tests are hard, duh.

[GeoDUDE!]

I haven't seen any specific cutoffs associated with those schools presented here. 

 

just a quick search: http://www.geos.vt.edu/preapplication/

 

shows that while they don't have a strict cutoff, they do publish the bottom of what their typical students. Vt's lower limits are low, but his scores are even significantly lower than that. And i'm not sure Vt is as competitive as Stanford, UT Austin, or Wisconsin.  

 

Quick searching the other departments, and the average admitted with funding applicants is around the 80th % in both sections at the top tier schools.

 

I know that my department ranks students in 5 bins: 1 outstanding 2 Good 3 average 4 acceptable 5 denied.  A small committee does this sorting, and then professors present their choices to the adcomms after they have been binned.  There are more 1's than there are spots, and professors are encouraged to nominate students from the 1 bin. That does not mean that 2,3, and sometimes 4s don't get in (5's, obviously almost never get in), but generally if a student is rated a 1, and a professor nominates that student, that student will have no trouble getting through the adcomm.

 

My feeling is that your GRE is bad enough that it could take you down a bin or two. I don't agree with that assessment, but students have to be parsed someway. 

 

Also, if your POI has funding, that also gets you through. But you need to give them a reason to look at your application, so hopefully you have been contacting them and your letters will dispel this inconsistency. Its also important to note that my department (and many other top departments) do not accept students they cannot fund (and departments that do often don't accept them for Thesis based tracked masters unless they have funding). 

 

If you are willing to self finance a masters, that changes the game completely, but getting into graduate school is not easy. At least it wasn't for me.

 

I hope you don't take this as a discouragement or anything: I just think it's important to know what you are up against. When I first applied i didn't: I had tons of research experience and great letters and got completely rejected from all the programs I wanted to attend except 1. 

 

Like Usmivka has said, he does know one who got in with terrific research. But what is terrific research in the eyes of the adcomm ? thats completely subjective unless there is an external peer reviewed publication attached to it. 

 

I would again, ask my advisors, how do I get this terrible GRE past the adcomm gracefully. Ask them to go to bat for you. If they are willing to write you terrific letters, they will be willing to help you a little bit more. 

[Usmivka]

Standardized tests are hard, duh.

I'm sure an adcom would like that answer just as much as the columbia09's.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Usmivka

[columbia09]

I feel sick now that everything I worked for over the past couple of years will be for nothing because of this stupid test. I don't know what to do at this point 

[Usmivka]

I feel sick now that everything I worked for over the past couple of years will be for nothing because of this stupid test. I don't know what to do at this point 

Figure out which schools this really makes a difference for and which it won't. Focus your efforts where they are most likely to pay off, don't spend a bunch of money shotgunning applications. A good place to start is with an education coordinator, or failing that, your prospective advisor. The likelihood is that at least one of these programs, or some other with an equally good fit, will accept you based on your good record in all of the parts of the application that count for more. I don't really understand the new GRE scores, but if they are really below par, then use some prominent space in your SOP to highlight why all the other things you've done right show you will be successful in grad school more than this test. I knew a math grad student who had to explain away much lower test scores than yours (percentage wise) and got into a top ranked grad school.

 

If you aren't happy about your options and really think you are below some GRE threshold that will bar you from consideration,  I'll bet some of these programs have a Spring admission. Consider aiming for then and really devoting yourself to GRE prep in all your after work time for a month or two. Practice until it doesn't matter if you blank out during the test--you'll come out the other side on auto-pilot doing fine. Freezing up can be overcome with training--it is a lot better scenario than, say, you literally can't stay awake for the duration of the test because your blood sugar crashes and they won't let food in the room (honestly I think this is the most common issue people have from my conversations!).

 

Your work isn't for nothing, and there is always a way forward. Sleep on it and come up with a couple plans of action in the morning.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Usmivka

[columbia09]

In all honesty, Nebraska is the program that I really want to try to get into. I spoke to the advisor and he told me everything I wanted to hear so if I could at least get in there I'll be fine. I'll meet with my thesis advisor tomorrow to explain that I received low GREs and what should I do (besides retaking them).  

[columbia09]

So my official scores came out today, I'm above the 25% mark for verbal and 21% for math. I got a 4.0 in AW putting me above the 56% mark. So at least one of my scores is in the top half but I'm guessing I'm still in a disadvantage spot. 

[prospecting]

I too had a very poor GRE showing during the last application season. Please do not be disheartened. I highly suggest that you keep your chin up and retake your GRE, make good/excellent contact with Professors you are interested in working with, and perhaps arrange to meet with them.

 

Last year, I was devastated too when I was rejected from 5 out of 5 schools despite having a solid GPA. Granted my GRE score was my achilles. When my advising UG Professor found out, he said to me "your dream isn't over, it merely got postponed is all". Motivated by that, I buckled down and studied for it before retaking it earlier this year. I scored significantly better. I would recommend you do the same.

 

Remember my friend - your dream isn't over, it merely got postponed. Not that it is over yet, but if you do get rejected - I say take heart and put in a stronger application next season

[columbia09]

What schools did you apply to if I may ask ? Did you contact those schools afterwards ? Was it just because of your GRE that you got rejected ?

Edited November 5, 2014 by columbia09

[prospecting]

Sure - almost every school in Texas, including programs at Scripps, UWashington, and UOregon.

 

Most, if not all, of these programs have stringent GRE cutoffs.

 

I had graduated from a top 3 R1 school with several research projects and very strong recommendation letters. Unfortunately, I had failed to meet the minimum GRE last year because I had taken over twenty credits worth of courses on top of other assignments. I was overburdened with commitment and could not afford any time to study for my GRE.

 

I did come very close to being admitted with faculty recommendations from two Texan schools, but unfortunately the committee denied me admissions because of my subpar GRE. 

 

I wish you the best with your applications.

[columbia09]

Thank you I'm going to speak to my advisor today to get his view on this. I might just wind up applying to the less competitive programs like Nebraska and U Mass.

[GeoDUDE!]

Thank you I'm going to speak to my advisor today to get his view on this. I might just wind up applying to the less competitive programs like Nebraska and U Mass.

 

 

I think it would be unwise to resign yourself to less competitive programs just because of the GRE, especially if you think you can handle the pressure of a high ranking program.  I know I have spent a lot of time revealing that your chances are less than you might have liked, but it is not as if you have 0 chance, and  why wouldn't you be the exception to the trend? If you can stretch yourself, apply to more schools instead the same # but less competitive.  Do you have specific research interests ? Do you want to do a PhD after your MS ? There are a lot of things to come into play. 

 

The reason why I say this is the less competitive programs are more likely to accept you, but they are less likely to give you funding if you are accepted as a MS student. 

 

Anyway, have a good talk with your advisor.... i'm sure you guys will work things out.

[prospecting]

I agree with Geodude that many factors will come into play and you should not give up with applying to more competitive programs. I have seen my fair number of surprises including a person who was accepted into a highly competitive O&G school despite a sub-3.0 GPA.

 

The GRE plays only one part of the overall selection process and many of these criterias are not entirely unveiled to us. I would say both motivation and research interests play vital roles in selecting an appropriate candidate. I feel you may possess these intrinsic qualities and so I ask that you do not give up.

 

Edited: a word.

Edited November 5, 2014 by prospecting