What now?

[Schizo-Neuro enthusiast]

Well my signature pretty much talks for itself. I am waiting on four more programs to hear back from, but I am pretty sure I will be rejected from them as well.

 

I am an international student from Greece. My stats are not that bad, I thought I would get at least on interview. My GPA is 4.00, and my GRE scores are V: 163, Q: 152, AW: 5.0. I have 3 years of research experience with the topic of my honors thesis being directly relevant to what I would like to conduct research on during a PhD program.

 

I have no poster presentations, or publications, because of specific circumstances that have to do with the educational system in Greece (they only happen after you graduate). I graduated in July, so I am working on a publication right now.

 

My back up plan is to apply to Masters programs in England and then reapply to PhD programs in the USA in one or two years. Does that sound like a solid plan? I will gain more research experience, increase my technical expertise, and I will probably get a publication or two. My main concern is whether to attend a full time one year masters program, or a part time two years masters program.

 

The first option means that I will start my program in September 2015 and graduate in September 2016. It also means that I will be applying to PhD programs for the Fall 2016 cycle with not a much more improved CV.

 

The second option means that I will graduate in September 2017 and apply to PhD programs for the Fall 2017 cycle with a somewhat improved CV.

 

Which option do you think is better? Do you think I will get accepted into a masters program? All input will be greatly appreciated.

[spunky]

from an (ex-) foreign student to another, do not feel discouraged about this. there is one VERY, VERY big factor that can make you or break you when it comes to applying for programs in the U.S./Canada: funding, funding, funding.

 

resources are limited and every year there are more and more people applying and less and less money to go around for future students. it could well be that you were a stellar candidate but you didn't have any local agency in Greece or gov't grant to pay for your education. domestic/national students are given priority when it comes to things like this and by the time professors have taken their pick of potential students, there usually is either no room (or very few spaces left) for international students. 

 

to be honest with you, i would focus on trying to improve my CV by getting grants or scholarships so that you can demonstrate $$$ when you apply again. 

[Schizo-Neuro enthusiast]

from an (ex-) foreign student to another, do not feel discouraged about this. there is one VERY, VERY big factor that can make you or break you when it comes to applying for programs in the U.S./Canada: funding, funding, funding.

 

resources are limited and every year there are more and more people applying and less and less money to go around for future students. it could well be that you were a stellar candidate but you didn't have any local agency in Greece or gov't grant to pay for your education. domestic/national students are given priority when it comes to things like this and by the time professors have taken their pick of potential students, there usually is either no room (or very few spaces left) for international students. 

 

to be honest with you, i would focus on trying to improve my CV by getting grants or scholarships so that you can demonstrate $$$ when you apply again. 

 

Thank you very much for your reply! So in your opinion, pursuing a masters degree would not be a good option? There are scarce opportunities for funding for educational purposes by the government of local agencies in Greece.

[constant_wanderer]

I think with your marks and scores you should have a solid chance at many experimental master's programs in the UK (e.g. Sussex, Kent, Leeds.) Mu question is: why not the MA programs in the US/Canada? Many psych programs on this side of the Atlantic continue to review apps for experimental psych even after the deadline (although they would never advertise it on their website. E.g. Ryerson in Toronto, McMaster, Dalhousie -- same with the MAs in the States. You have to call around and ask.)

That way, you stand a better chance competing with North American students next time you apply for a doctorate in N. America).

If you'd like to stick to the UK, I'd say go for the plan that gives you a more competitive CV. In the long run, an extra year will not seem that much more of a drag, if that's even the right word.

[Schizo-Neuro enthusiast]

I think with your marks and scores you should have a solid chance at many experimental master's programs in the UK (e.g. Sussex, Kent, Leeds.) Mu question is: why not the MA programs in the US/Canada? Many psych programs on this side of the Atlantic continue to review apps for experimental psych even after the deadline (although they would never advertise it on their website. E.g. Ryerson in Toronto, McMaster, Dalhousie -- same with the MAs in the States. You have to call around and ask.)

That way, you stand a better chance competing with North American students next time you apply for a doctorate in N. America).

If you'd like to stick to the UK, I'd say go for the plan that gives you a more competitive CV. In the long run, an extra year will not seem that much more of a drag, if that's even the right word.

 

The reason why I am think UK is because of the costs. Masters programs are not funded as far as I am concerned?

 

Since Greece is a member of the EU, I will pay the same tuition fees as someone who is from the UK. Overall, the cost is much lower if I attend a program in the UK, than if I attend one in the USA/Canada.

 

As far as time is concerned, which option do you think is better? Full time one year masters program, or part time two year masters program?

[Chubberubber]

Are you more interested with research or with conducting therapy? If you want to be a therapist then you also need to concider licensure- in my country it's very hard to get accredited without having your MA/PhD from a local university... 

As Spunky said- funding is almost the end all and be all of international PhD applications. Maybe there are some EU-wide scholarships that could help you secure funding for education iin the US? It's hard work, but finding possible funding avenues is crucial (unless, of course, you want to marry an American! )

One last thing- it ain't over 'till it's over! As a member here told me once- you only need one interview... 

Have faith!

[spunky]

i'm sorry to be a "glass-half-empty" kind of person but i'm not sure of how much it would gain you to obtain an MA from the UK unless you have a way to account for the funding situation. keep in mind that you are still going to be competing against domestic students for those coveted funded labs. would it improve your chances? absolutely! you would be exposed to research more, there won't be an empty time gap between your undergrad degree and your PhD application... i really can't see anything bad coming out of it. but i still feel the funding situation needs to be addressed somehow, if possible. and i know this for a fact because after i managed to squeeze myself into graduate school and started asking everybody why i was on the chopping block for rejections, everybody said the same thing: that i was a great candidate, but since i was an international student with limited funding options nobody wanted to even touch my applications.

 

from how you describe your options, it seems like you're already favouring the 2-year part-time option over the 1-year, full-time option, are you not?

 

oh! and Chubberubber made a very, very good point. if you want to practice as a clinician/do therapy in the U.S./Canada an MA is not enough. you need to be licensed. and from what i've heard  if you can't manage to get licensed in the state or province where you want to practice while you're still a student there's A LOT of paperwork, costs, exams and things you'll need to deal with. it's a lot easier if you're only focused on research.

 

what about doing both your MA and PhD in the UK? would that be an option

Edited January 27, 2015 by spunky

[jnah]

everybody said the same thing: that i was a great candidate, but since i was an international student with limited funding options nobody wanted to even touch my applications.

 

And yet, somebody evidently did touch your application in the end! Are you able to say a little bit more about that? Do you think you just got lucky, or did you somehow successfully lobby for it?

 

I'm particularly interested in your perspective because I'm an American who applied to a Canadian university—given your location, probably the very university you're at—without any external funding (except for the potential of federal student loans, which is not a route I'd like to go down). I knew going into the application that this set of circumstances would work against me, but it's just such a great research fit... I had to apply.

[Schizo-Neuro enthusiast]

Are you more interested with research or with conducting therapy? If you want to be a therapist then you also need to concider licensure- in my country it's very hard to get accredited without having your MA/PhD from a local university... 

As Spunky said- funding is almost the end all and be all of international PhD applications. Maybe there are some EU-wide scholarships that could help you secure funding for education iin the US? It's hard work, but finding possible funding avenues is crucial (unless, of course, you want to marry an American! )

One last thing- it ain't over 'till it's over! As a member here told me once- you only need one interview... 

Have faith!

 

I am interested in research and clinical assessment. I would say it goes something like 70% research and 30% clinical assessment. I will certainly look into EU scholarships when I reapply to PhD programs. I knew that the application process was competitive, but I didn't know that being an international student would put me at such a disadvantage.

 

i'm sorry to be a "glass-half-empty" kind of person but i'm not sure of how much it would gain you to obtain an MA from the UK unless you have a way to account for the funding situation. keep in mind that you are still going to be competing against domestic students for those coveted funded labs. would it improve your chances? absolutely! you would be exposed to research more, there won't be an empty time gap between your undergrad degree and your PhD application... i really can't see anything bad coming out of it. but i still feel the funding situation needs to be addressed somehow, if possible. and i know this for a fact because after i managed to squeeze myself into graduate school and started asking everybody why i was on the chopping block for rejections, everybody said the same thing: that i was a great candidate, but since i was an international student with limited funding options nobody wanted to even touch my applications.

 

from how you describe your options, it seems like you're already favouring the 2-year part-time option over the 1-year, full-time option, are you not?

 

oh! and Chubberubber made a very, very good point. if you want to practice as a clinician/do therapy in the U.S./Canada an MA is not enough. you need to be licensed. and from what i've heard  if you can't manage to get licensed in the state or province where you want to practice while you're still a student there's A LOT of paperwork, costs, exams and things you'll need to deal with. it's a lot easier if you're only focused on research.

 

what about doing both your MA and PhD in the UK? would that be an option

 

I don't see you as a "glass-half-empty" kind of person. I would say you are more of a realistic kind of person and I appreciate that.

 

First of all I am thinking of pursuing an MA from the UK, because the quality of the programs is greater than that of the ones in Greece.

 

I am favouring the 2 year part-time option because I think it will increase my chances of getting an interview when I reapply to PhD programs.

 

I don't know why you mentioned the licensure issues? If I was not that focused on research, would getting an MA from the UK and a PhD from the USA pose any problems with licensure?

 

As far as doing both my MA and PhD in the UK goes, that will be my back up plan.

[Frontal lobes]

Hello,

Just to give you another perspective of an international applicant, I have four PhD clinical psych interviews out of six program's I have applied to. I only applied to those offering every students full funding plus stipend. However, I also have a masters (from UK), clinical experience, and currently working in the US as a research assistant under a well know professor in my field - and multiple first author and coauthor pubs as well as numerous poster presentation.

My point is not to blow my own trumpet but to point out the fact that if you are good then being international weighs very low in the list of what they look for. Good universities and program's have money and it is more important to them (if they are good) to have good people they an commit to for 5+ years. Universities are diverse and full if students from all over the world .

My advice to you would be Yes a masters in the UK is a great idea but make sure it is in an area directly in the area you intend on focusing on later. Publications (at least one 1st author) are crucial as are presentations. However, if you could get an RA position in the US then thats even better than the masters but that may be hard to do( I had a contact). I just think its hard to break into the US clinical grad school thing without people there who an recommend you.

Good Luck!

[spunky]

And yet, somebody evidently did touch your application in the end! Are you able to say a little bit more about that? Do you think you just got lucky, or did you somehow successfully lobby for it?

 

 

i don't really talk much about it because mine was a very unique and non-generalizable situation.  what ultimately got me in was the money i make from my business (i'm a self-employed statistical consultant. i focus on the development of High Frequency Trading algorithms that i sell to financial institutions as a freelancer). once i actually understood the sheer importance of demonstrating funding sources (with it being SO important that even the Psych Dept's website of my uni says that if you get rejected is probably due to a lack of funding) i did some "smart accounting" , moved around all the assets/funds i had available under my name and i wrote a small paragraph in my SOP mentioning that i was self-funded and that i could finance myself throughout graduate school without any help. i included copies of all my bank statements, financial documents, letters from banks in the U.S. and Canada where i have accounts vouching for my credit, tax returns, etc. and my guess is that what the admission committee saw in terms of money was impressive enough to get me an interview. which makes sense from a business perspective: for an int'l student in the University of British Columbia (UBC) tuition for a foreign student is like 3 or 4 times that of a domestic student. so they see the money that would be coming in with no strings attached and they get all excited. but i understand my situation is so unique that it really helps no one to recommend it. it would be like like "yeah... make sure you can demonstrate lotsa $$$ before you apply!". that doesn't really help anyone.

 

 

I'm particularly interested in your perspective because I'm an American who applied to a Canadian university—given your location, probably the very university you're at—without any external funding (except for the potential of federal student loans, which is not a route I'd like to go down). I knew going into the application that this set of circumstances would work against me, but it's just such a great research fit... I had to apply.

 

i actually know quite a few Americans over in the Dept who got funding directly from their advisors or from some of the well-funded labs we have. i honestly think there's some form of pro-American bias to be honest ... which is a good thing for you! if you mean you will be applying @UBC times are a little bit tough right now though because the provincial gov't is scaling back the money it gives to the university so UBC is in panic mode raising tuition fees, fees for residences, they just approved a 10% increase tuition for int'l students, etc.... but then again you have the American advantage, LOL. however, when it comes to people applying from more...well... let's call them "exotic" places (i'm originally from Mexico, for example) people get a little bit more suspicious about you

Edited January 27, 2015 by spunky

[spunky]

 

I don't see you as a "glass-half-empty" kind of person. I would say you are more of a realistic kind of person and I appreciate that.

 

 

thank you! that's very kind of you to say

 

 

First of all I am thinking of pursuing an MA from the UK, because the quality of the programs is greater than that of the ones in Greece.

 

 

it also helps out a lot that it's an English-focused program in an English-speaking country. that usually says a lot of good things about you when it comes to applying to other English-focused programs. 

 

 

 

I don't know why you mentioned the licensure issues? If I was not that focused on research, would getting an MA from the UK and a PhD from the USA pose any problems with licensure?

 

 

well, Chubberubber mentioned it first and it reminded me of a lady from Portugal who posted here a few months ago who was in a somewhat similar situation to yours... she had done both an MA in Portugal AND in the UK, moved to California for some reason (she did not elaborate) and was finding it really tough to find a job because she did not have a licence (and California is one of the toughest states to get licensed at. almost EVERYTHING you do there asks you for some sort of licence or certification). unfortunately for her, she found out the hard way that her MA from the UK was basically worthless in California unless she went through the courses, did the supervised hours, took the exams etc... which apparently is not cheap. and most of the supervised hours/practicum that are needed for the licence usually happens through a university of institution of some sort. so if you're not really *IN* the system, it's hard to get those spaces. 

 

honestly, i'll have to leave the Clinical folk to answer your question regarding the MA from the UK and PhD from the U.S. question. because i'm not in clinical (although i work with them all the time and ask them tons of questions) all the people i know started their licensing process as soon as they could, which is during the first 2years of the MA-PhD stream that most Clinical programs in North America follow (i think it's called the Boulder Model or something). 

 

Frontal lobes' suggestion of somehow getting your foot in the door within the U.S. by working with someone who may have contacts there would probably be your best bet in terms of getting into graduate school. you really need to find ways to get yourself "in the system" through volunteering, being a research assistant, getting to know profs, etc. i know that's not possible for you right now, but it's just the way things work. 

Edited January 27, 2015 by spunky

[Schizo-Neuro enthusiast]

Hello,

Just to give you another perspective of an international applicant, I have four PhD clinical psych interviews out of six program's I have applied to. I only applied to those offering every students full funding plus stipend. However, I also have a masters (from UK), clinical experience, and currently working in the US as a research assistant under a well know professor in my field - and multiple first author and coauthor pubs as well as numerous poster presentation.

My point is not to blow my own trumpet but to point out the fact that if you are good then being international weighs very low in the list of what they look for. Good universities and program's have money and it is more important to them (if they are good) to have good people they an commit to for 5+ years. Universities are diverse and full if students from all over the world .

My advice to you would be Yes a masters in the UK is a great idea but make sure it is in an area directly in the area you intend on focusing on later. Publications (at least one 1st author) are crucial as are presentations. However, if you could get an RA position in the US then thats even better than the masters but that may be hard to do( I had a contact). I just think its hard to break into the US clinical grad school thing without people there who an recommend you.

Good Luck!

 

 

thank you! that's very kind of you to say

 

 

it also helps out a lot that it's an English-focused program in an English-speaking country. that usually says a lot of good things about you when it comes to applying to other English-focused programs. 

 

 

 

well, Chubberubber mentioned it first and it reminded me of a lady from Portugal who posted here a few months ago who was in a somewhat similar situation to yours... she had done both an MA in Portugal AND in the UK, moved to California for some reason (she did not elaborate) and was finding it really tough to find a job because she did not have a licence (and California is one of the toughest states to get licensed at. almost EVERYTHING you do there asks you for some sort of licence or certification). unfortunately for her, she found out the hard way that her MA from the UK was basically worthless in California unless she went through the courses, did the supervised hours, took the exams etc... which apparently is not cheap. and most of the supervised hours/practicum that are needed for the licence usually happens through a university of institution of some sort. so if you're not really *IN* the system, it's hard to get those spaces. 

 

honestly, i'll have to leave the Clinical folk to answer your question regarding the MA from the UK and PhD from the U.S. question. because i'm not in clinical (although i work with them all the time and ask them tons of questions) all the people i know started their licensing process as soon as they could, which is during the first 2years of the MA-PhD stream that most Clinical programs in North America follow (i think it's called the Boulder Model or something). 

 

Frontal lobes' suggestion of somehow getting your foot in the door within the U.S. by working with someone who may have contacts there would probably be your best bet in terms of getting into graduate school. you really need to find ways to get yourself "in the system" through volunteering, being a research assistant, getting to know profs, etc. i know that's not possible for you right now, but it's just the way things work. 

 

I would like to thank  both of you for your replies. I have pm'd you.