Reputation Real Talk

[gradgradgradddddd]

So, obviously a throwaway account because I know faculty and current students lurk around here. I'm not intending this to be a thread to dump maliciously on schools or anything, rather I would like to talk frankly about different schools' reputation/rank in theory vs. the real world.

 

One of the schools I've been accepted to traditionally ranks somewhat low (hovering near the bottom of the Top 50 of US News) but in the Chronicle rankings list I saw posted in another thread around here, surprisingly is pretty high up, especially compared to regional schools that are better regarded.

 

I'm wondering how people feel about schools like that: if it has a low rank/reputation to a wider/uninformed audience (ie. US news seems to represent a broad, general public type of consensus to me) but has a decent rep within the specific field of English (Chronicle), is it worth attending? I'm worried that even though it's somewhat well regarded, the name won't carry much currency if I go national or even international after graduating. 

 

As you can tell, I'm pretty mixed up in my feelings about this. Any input is welcome! 

[hreaðemus]

Well - obviously rank is a touchy subject for anyone associated with a particular school, so I think you're wise not to name names, and I'm going to follow your example. But I think there are a couple of different ways to see if a department "ranks" at a different level (either higher or lower) than the institution it's part of.

 

The first thing would be placement - does the English department at the school you're looking at regularly (or ever) place Ph.D. graduates at universities ranked higher than that school? (So - if the university is ranked #55, does the English department place students in the 40s and 30s? Or is there a downward trend?) If graduates are getting placed at higher-ranking universities than the one they attended, that suggests the department is stronger than the school as a whole.

 

The second thing would be faculty - where did they attend graduate school? Who have they published with/list in their book acknowledgements? How often are they cited? If a faculty member at Blah University studied under Professor GodKing Amazing at OMG College, chances are s/he will retain stronger connections and a higher reputation within the field than if s/he came to Blah University with a Ph.D. from Mediocre State - and these connections, of course, will be passed down to his/her students.

 

In general, I think, the overall rank of a school matters because the money, opportunities, and prestige offered by Schools #1-10 make the process of getting a graduate degree much easier - even in a field like English, where job prospects are dismal. I think most programs are "worth" attending in that they will offer challenges and opportunities to students - but prestige? That's a different story. Privilege is real. But it's a variable that changes with each publication, hire, retirement, etc... pedigrees, like currency, are always in flux. 

Edited February 20, 2015 by hreaðemus

[echo449]

This isn't mentioned often when those rankings come up around this forum, but the NRC rankings floating around are over five years old at this point. Please keep that in mind when referring to them. Many professors have since retired/ moved on to greener/warmer pastures. 

[Dr. Old Bill]

Professor GodKing Amazing at OMG College was one of my POIs.

 

True story.

[hypervodka]

I should note that the reason the NRC varies so hugely is because it uses a completely different set of criteria. For the S-Rank in particular, they survey a bunch of professors and students about what sort of qualities they would value in graduate programs in general, and then the surveying body (can't remember who) goes through and examines all graduate programs for those specific qualities. US News and Report pays much more attention to reputation, which, honestly, is a huge deciding factor in job placement (but not the hugest factor--one of my acceptee institutions is Top 40 and has an 90% placement record in my field, to schools like Northwestern and Princeton).

 

Your target university has all of the traits associated with successful institutions (diversity, helpful faculty, publishing faculty, collegiality atmosphere, or whatever was on that survey, which is half a decade old)--it's just not a "name." That's fine. The NRC thinks your target university has all of the best qualities an English department can possibly have. I think you can assess those qualities for yourself. If you're worried about going national or international, look at the school's placement record: if people have consistently had success doing just that despite coming from a "no-name" school, throw that worry out of the window.

Edited February 20, 2015 by hypervodka

[__________________________]

There are also international rankings... QS and THE in particular... though I don't know how legit those are or how seriously they are taken in the U.S.

[gradgradgradddddd]

Well - obviously rank is a touchy subject for anyone associated with a particular school, so I think you're wise not to name names, and I'm going to follow your example. But I think there are a couple of different ways to see if a department "ranks" at a different level (either higher or lower) than the institution it's part of.

 

The first thing would be placement - does the English department at the school you're looking at regularly (or ever) place Ph.D. graduates at universities ranked higher than that school? (So - if the university is ranked #55, does the English department place students in the 40s and 30s? Or is there a downward trend?) If graduates are getting placed at higher-ranking universities than the one they attended, that suggests the department is stronger than the school as a whole.

 

The second thing would be faculty - where did they attend graduate school? Who have they published with/list in their book acknowledgements? How often are they cited? If a faculty member at Blah University studied under Professor GodKing Amazing at OMG College, chances are s/he will retain stronger connections and a higher reputation within the field than if s/he came to Blah University with a Ph.D. from Mediocre State - and these connections, of course, will be passed down to his/her students.

 

In general, I think, the overall rank of a school matters because the money, opportunities, and prestige offered by Schools #1-10 make the process of getting a graduate degree much easier - even in a field like English, where job prospects are dismal. I think most programs are "worth" attending in that they will offer challenges and opportunities to students - but prestige? That's a different story. Privilege is real. But it's a variable that changes with each publication, hire, retirement, etc... pedigrees, like currency, are always in flux. 

 

Ah jeez. I didn't even think of weighing the department against the wider school. The NRC gives rankings by specific department, though. 

 

And I had no idea where the faculty come from was particularly important. It seems like pretty much every school I look at nowadays, the faculty come from Berkeley or Yale. 

 

This isn't mentioned often when those rankings come up around this forum, but the NRC rankings floating around are over five years old at this point. Please keep that in mind when referring to them. Many professors have since retired/ moved on to greener/warmer pastures. 

 

They haven't updated the thing in five years? I guess it's the latest set of data out there, though, right?

 

I should note that the reason the NRC varies so hugely is because it uses a completely different set of criteria. For the S-Rank in particular, they survey a bunch of professors and students about what sort of qualities they would value in graduate programs in general, and then the surveying body (can't remember who) goes through and examines all graduate programs for those specific qualities. US News and Report pays much more attention to reputation, which, honestly, is a huge deciding factor in job placement. You're target university has all of the traits associated with successful institutions (diversity, helpful faculty, publishing faculty, collegiality atmosphere, or whatever was on that survey, which is half a decade old)--it's just not a "name." That's fine. The NRC thinks your target university has all of the best qualities an English department can possibly have. I think you can assess those qualities for yourself. If you're worried about going national or international, look at the school's placement record: if people have consistently had success doing just that despite coming from a "no-name" school, throw that worry out of the window.

 

That's a tough call... anyone else mind sharing which type of reputation they're valuing more? I guess it's not really up to me since I didn't get into a Top 10 school...

[softcastlemccormick]

Placement percentage is very important, as are faculty connections. 

 

Also, I imagine Professor GodKing Amazing to look something like Duke Leto II?

 

 

Edited February 20, 2015 by softcastlemccormick

[1Q84]

Also, I imagine Professor GodKing Amazing to look something like Duke Leto II?

 

I always thought doing graduate work at Chapterhouse would be amazing. Imagine having a Reverend Mother as your adviser!

 

They haven't updated the thing in five years? I guess it's the latest set of data out there, though, right?

 

Well, US News' rankings list is from 2013, if that helps. 

[hreaðemus]

I had no idea where the faculty come from was particularly important. It seems like pretty much every school I look at nowadays, the faculty come from Berkeley or Yale. 

 

Well... to be honest, I think your observation is confirmation that it matters. If a field known for poor placement rates is dominated by graduates from three or four schools... well, you know exactly where the privilege is. In fact, I've heard the students (past and present) of certain professors referred to as "family" or "a mafia"! I suspect (in terms of prestige) that the next best thing to studying under such a professor, or attending such a school, is to attach oneself to someone who has.

Edited February 20, 2015 by hreaðemus

[forever_jung]

Question: Are there any rankings available that looks specifically at composition and rhetoric? Thanks

[CarolineNC]

Wait, I thought the last group of rankings was done in 2013?

 

NM ignore me that's US NEws and World Report

Edited February 20, 2015 by CarolineKS

[Appppplication]

These topics are really tricky and ultimately come down to what your area of specialization is and how well that area is represented in those "top ranked programs".

Take critical race studies for example. you may want to seriously reconsider the rankings if you're looking for strong scholars in that area, because your interests simply may not be supported there.

[ProfLorax]

Question: Are there any rankings available that looks specifically at composition and rhetoric? Thanks

Nope! One of the things I love most about our field. You want to make sure that any program you're considering has multiple people you want to work with, and furthermore, that these people are publishing in top journals/academic presses and frequently presenting at CCCC and RSA (and FemRhets, CPWA, and/or Computers and Writing depending on their interest). Check placement rates too. I'd say those are the most helpful criteria in determining a rhet/comp program's reputation.

[lifealive]

You should really ask your professors. Personally, however, I'd err on the side of USNWR. USNWR rankings are crap, but they do sort of have a ring of truth (a hollow ring, but a ring nonetheless). Yes, program reputation is still the most important currency on the job market, and many of the schools that USNWR picks out as good are generally regarded as good schools, and people coming out of them get good jobs. There are few surprises there.

 

NRC has been sort of dismissed--not just because it's already out-of-date, but because it's difficult to understand and interpret. It also threw some wild curves that had people scratching their heads. I know that people at my institution didn't really take it seriously.

[Fugitivity]

So, obviously a throwaway account because I know faculty and current students lurk around here. I'm not intending this to be a thread to dump maliciously on schools or anything, rather I would like to talk frankly about different schools' reputation/rank in theory vs. the real world.

 

One of the schools I've been accepted to traditionally ranks somewhat low (hovering near the bottom of the Top 50 of US News) but in the Chronicle rankings list I saw posted in another thread around here, surprisingly is pretty high up, especially compared to regional schools that are better regarded.

 

I'm wondering how people feel about schools like that: if it has a low rank/reputation to a wider/uninformed audience (ie. US news seems to represent a broad, general public type of consensus to me) but has a decent rep within the specific field of English (Chronicle), is it worth attending? I'm worried that even though it's somewhat well regarded, the name won't carry much currency if I go national or even international after graduating. 

 

As you can tell, I'm pretty mixed up in my feelings about this. Any input is welcome! 

 

 

What are your ultimate goals?  Tenure track job at R1?  Tenure track job at SLAC?  Tenure track at Community College? Tenure Track at State College?

 

But I think sometimes people jump ahead of themselves.  First see if the Graduate School environment at the school you want is one where you feel like you can complete it and that is has the educational as well as social qualities you want.  

 

What we haven't talked about here much is attrition, and why it happens.  I have heard that a significant amount of graduate students for English never finish.  The statistics are difficult to find but I've heard numbers ranging from 35-50%.  

 

So it's all fine and dandy to get into your dream school, but if you don't finish it your chances of getting a tenure track job are around 0%. 

 

To answer your question:  Does the "low ranked" school have all the qualities you want? Are there professors and students there working on stuff that interests you?  Do you like the environment?  If so, I'd say attend unless you have other serious career options. 

[fancypants09]

Well - obviously rank is a touchy subject for anyone associated with a particular school, so I think you're wise not to name names, and I'm going to follow your example. But I think there are a couple of different ways to see if a department "ranks" at a different level (either higher or lower) than the institution it's part of.

 

The first thing would be placement - does the English department at the school you're looking at regularly (or ever) place Ph.D. graduates at universities ranked higher than that school? (So - if the university is ranked #55, does the English department place students in the 40s and 30s? Or is there a downward trend?) If graduates are getting placed at higher-ranking universities than the one they attended, that suggests the department is stronger than the school as a whole.

 

The second thing would be faculty - where did they attend graduate school? Who have they published with/list in their book acknowledgements? How often are they cited? If a faculty member at Blah University studied under Professor GodKing Amazing at OMG College, chances are s/he will retain stronger connections and a higher reputation within the field than if s/he came to Blah University with a Ph.D. from Mediocre State - and these connections, of course, will be passed down to his/her students.

 

In general, I think, the overall rank of a school matters because the money, opportunities, and prestige offered by Schools #1-10 make the process of getting a graduate degree much easier - even in a field like English, where job prospects are dismal. I think most programs are "worth" attending in that they will offer challenges and opportunities to students - but prestige? That's a different story. Privilege is real. But it's a variable that changes with each publication, hire, retirement, etc... pedigrees, like currency, are always in flux. 

 

THIS. Just to echo what has already been expressed in slightly different terms: I think you should be pretty careful about relying on rankings for determining reputation, especially of a doctoral program. For example, certain top ranked programs (may include OMG College) may have scholars that are well-renowned and amazing resources, but have really poor placement. Great for reputation of the school and the scholars, but not so much for the students. On the other hand, professors at some lower ranked programs may go to bat for their students through personal connections (something you won't be able to perceive unless you know the details of the layout of your field rather well) so that they do get the jobs that they want post-graduation. 

[heja0805]

So, obviously a throwaway account because I know faculty and current students lurk around here. I'm not intending this to be a thread to dump maliciously on schools or anything, rather I would like to talk frankly about different schools' reputation/rank in theory vs. the real world.

 

One of the schools I've been accepted to traditionally ranks somewhat low (hovering near the bottom of the Top 50 of US News) but in the Chronicle rankings list I saw posted in another thread around here, surprisingly is pretty high up, especially compared to regional schools that are better regarded.

 

I'm wondering how people feel about schools like that: if it has a low rank/reputation to a wider/uninformed audience (ie. US news seems to represent a broad, general public type of consensus to me) but has a decent rep within the specific field of English (Chronicle), is it worth attending? I'm worried that even though it's somewhat well regarded, the name won't carry much currency if I go national or even international after graduating. 

 

As you can tell, I'm pretty mixed up in my feelings about this. Any input is welcome! 

 

Hello Gradgrad, welcome to grad cafe! I can relate to your feelings about whether or not to be anonymous and the ramifications of that choice. 

 

It's difficult to address your question because I have no idea what you study. What is your field and area of interests? 

 

Like many folks have reacted, the English rankings from the US News are irrelevant to most people who identify with rhetoric and composition, writing studies, or technical communication. They are somewhat relevant, though, because so many of these folks work in English departments and contribute to the data that drives the US News rankings. Departments of writing are of course not included on this list at all, however. 

 

I'm a glutton for statistics and always have, but at the same time, most people in my discipline are resistant to rankings (I usually choose to identify myself with writing studies). I'm possibly one of the few people who would find value in rankings of departments in my discipline. Researchers in writing studies and technical communication are incredibly active, and there's data that can be studied used for all sorts of purposes as a result of a ranking of research output. For instance, departments could use data on research output when seeking funding from their institutions. Applicants could obviously use it, as could job seekers. 

 

To THE and QS World Rankings, those rankings are solely based on research output in the sciences and social sciences. Again, they might seem irrelevant for those of us in the humanities, but these numbers help provide a sense for the institutional culture. If you're hoping to do cross-or interdisciplinary work, these rankings can also help provide a sense for the quality and abundance of resources and people you can utilize for this work. 

 

The scene for most graduate programs in the humanities is just very different from my discipline. I think this has a lot to do with the fact that writing studies programs are almost exclusively housed in land-grant institutions and also universities that began as normal schools. Graduates from programs that are housed in "low-ranked institutions" by US News standards routinely get jobs at fantastic universities ranking higher. There are so many reasons for this that I don't have time to reflect on at the moment, but the strength and quality of the graduate program itself is a huge factor, as is the kind of scholar that certain programs tends to produce, their dissertation advisor, their emphasis on teaching vs research, how they present themselves when on the job market, etc. 

 

This is a complex question, and none of what I've written is really all that helpful. What's important to remember is that your discipline, your values, and the context of research and teaching are things that I'd like to know more about before saying "don't go to the lower-ranked school" or something like that. 

[empress-marmot]

The scene for most graduate programs in the humanities is just very different from my discipline. I think this has a lot to do with the fact that writing studies programs are almost exclusively housed in land-grant institutions and also universities that began as normal schools. Graduates from programs that are housed in "low-ranked institutions" by US News standards routinely get jobs at fantastic universities ranking higher. There are so many reasons for this that I don't have time to reflect on at the moment, but the strength and quality of the graduate program itself is a huge factor, as is the kind of scholar that certain programs tends to produce, their dissertation advisor, their emphasis on teaching vs research, how they present themselves when on the job market, etc. 

 

This is a complex question, and none of what I've written is really all that helpful. What's important to remember is that your discipline, your values, and the context of research and teaching are things that I'd like to know more about before saying "don't go to the lower-ranked school" or something like that. 

 

I think we're going into graduate study during a turbulent time for higher education in the US.

 

Some other people on the forums have mentioned some thought-provoking facts about rankings and PhD programs, and I think the takeaway is that no program is a sure shot at a career. 

 

This might be like comparing apples and oranges, but look at UC Berkeley's placement rate. 6/11 graduates are in postdocs or visiting assistant professorships. At Berkeley Rhetoric, 3/5 of their graduates have postdocs or lecturer positions. I know that postdocs are prestigious, so I'm not suggesting that their grads have postdocs because they "can't" find jobs. However, on the TT side of things, when I was researching the University of Nebraska, I believe they informed me of a nearly 100% TT placement rate. (One graduate had become an administrator, hence "nearly 100%") 

 

With the Internet and social media, literally anyone can become a famous author, an activist, or a scholar. I don't necessarily need a university's name to give me credence. While I'd love to do this the "traditional" way, I am not so sure this tradition is viable anymore. From my reading, I think the only viable way to turn a degree into a career is to market yourself more than your pedigree. Though a prestigious pedigree helps too, I'm sure. 

[jean-luc-gohard]

This might be like comparing apples and oranges, but look at UC Berkeley's placement rate. 6/11 graduates are in postdocs or visiting assistant professorships. At Berkeley Rhetoric, 3/5 of their graduates have postdocs or lecturer positions. I know that postdocs are prestigious, so I'm not suggesting that their grads have postdocs because they "can't" find jobs. However, on the TT side of things, when I was researching the University of Nebraska, I believe they informed me of a nearly 100% TT placement rate. (One graduate had become an administrator, hence "nearly 100%") 

 

 

This. My undergrad institution, though it ranks in the top 40, places a huge emphasis on providing as much support as possible to its PhD students once they go on the job market, so their placement rate is really surprisingly strong. When I was talking with mentors there about which schools to apply to, two of them mentioned the fact that even top ranked UCs can't compete with the placement rates of some top 20 and top 30 private schools that place a stronger emphasis on placing their students. The sense I got from them was that you're sort of on your own on the job market if you graduate from a UC (I mean, you're probably on your own either way, but I'm sure more support can only help.)

[gradgradgradddddd]

Hello Gradgrad, welcome to grad cafe! I can relate to your feelings about whether or not to be anonymous and the ramifications of that choice. 

 

It's difficult to address your question because I have no idea what you study. What is your field and area of interests? 

 

Like many folks have reacted, the English rankings from the US News are irrelevant to most people who identify with rhetoric and composition, writing studies, or technical communication. They are somewhat relevant, though, because so many of these folks work in English departments and contribute to the data that drives the US News rankings. Departments of writing are of course not included on this list at all, however. 

 

The scene for most graduate programs in the humanities is just very different from my discipline. I think this has a lot to do with the fact that writing studies programs are almost exclusively housed in land-grant institutions and also universities that began as normal schools. Graduates from programs that are housed in "low-ranked institutions" by US News standards routinely get jobs at fantastic universities ranking higher. There are so many reasons for this that I don't have time to reflect on at the moment, but the strength and quality of the graduate program itself is a huge factor, as is the kind of scholar that certain programs tends to produce, their dissertation advisor, their emphasis on teaching vs research, how they present themselves when on the job market, etc. 

 

This is a complex question, and none of what I've written is really all that helpful. What's important to remember is that your discipline, your values, and the context of research and teaching are things that I'd like to know more about before saying "don't go to the lower-ranked school" or something like that. 

 

Thanks for the super long reply! I'm kind of looking to get into cultural studies and I haven't much found rankings that sort into that category. It's been mostly by faculty reputation.

 

 

 

I think we're going into graduate study during a turbulent time for higher education in the US.

 

Some other people on the forums have mentioned some thought-provoking facts about rankings and PhD programs, and I think the takeaway is that no program is a sure shot at a career. 

 

This might be like comparing apples and oranges, but look at UC Berkeley's placement rate. 6/11 graduates are in postdocs or visiting assistant professorships. At Berkeley Rhetoric, 3/5 of their graduates have postdocs or lecturer positions. I know that postdocs are prestigious, so I'm not suggesting that their grads have postdocs because they "can't" find jobs. However, on the TT side of things, when I was researching the University of Nebraska, I believe they informed me of a nearly 100% TT placement rate. (One graduate had become an administrator, hence "nearly 100%") 

 

With the Internet and social media, literally anyone can become a famous author, an activist, or a scholar. I don't necessarily need a university's name to give me credence. While I'd love to do this the "traditional" way, I am not so sure this tradition is viable anymore. From my reading, I think the only viable way to turn a degree into a career is to market yourself more than your pedigree. Though a prestigious pedigree helps too, I'm sure. 

 

 

 

This. My undergrad institution, though it ranks in the top 40, places a huge emphasis on providing as much support as possible to its PhD students once they go on the job market, so their placement rate is really surprisingly strong. When I was talking with mentors there about which schools to apply to, two of them mentioned the fact that even top ranked UCs can't compete with the placement rates of some top 20 and top 30 private schools that place a stronger emphasis on placing their students. The sense I got from them was that you're sort of on your own on the job market if you graduate from a UC (I mean, you're probably on your own either way, but I'm sure more support can only help.)

 

All three of the poster responses above have been quite comforting to me (namely the idea that some "lower ranked institutions" have better placement rates than some top-tier schools). I'm assuming it's simply a matter of perhaps being able to coast on top-tier reputation for a bit but still working quite hard to get a TT position, while lower-tier might just be all gumption and hard work. I'm okay with those odds but when I do school visits I'm definitely going to play tough with my placement rate questions.

[poliscar]

Just to say about Cultural Studies—be somewhat wary of programs that focus on the area. There are programs in Cultural Studies (Media Studies, American studies, etc as well) that have high placement rates, however, these are generally high-ranked schools. The flip-side of this is that PhD programs outside of English can often hurt your employment prospects, because schools are often looking for candidates trained in a more explicitly literary context. I've been told time and time again by a number of profs that unless you're talking about something like Brown's MCM, it's better to work on theory or cultural studies within a literature program, if only for the credentials. Cultural Studies programs can look really stellar from the outside, but they also come with significant risks.  

[1Q84]

Just to say about Cultural Studies—be somewhat wary of programs that focus on the area. There are programs in Cultural Studies (Media Studies, American studies, etc as well) that have high placement rates, however, these are generally high-ranked schools. The flip-side of this is that PhD programs outside of English can often hurt your employment prospects, because schools are often looking for candidates trained in a more explicitly literary context. I've been told time and time again by a number of profs that unless you're talking about something like Brown's MCM, it's better to work on theory or cultural studies within a literature program, if only for the credentials. Cultural Studies programs can look really stellar from the outside, but they also come with significant risks.  

 

Yes, I've heard the same from my profs. One said explicitly, "Whatever you do, do not concentrate on theory only," with an explanation similar to yours. 

 

On the other hand, I think it would be wise to seek out faculty who are strong in theory/cultural studies if that's where you see your focus shifting.

[leda&theswan]

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/education/2015/02/university_hiring_if_you_didn_t_get_your_ph_d_at_an_elite_university_good.html?wpsrc=fol_fb

 

food for thought?

[echo449]

Ehhh, original post sounded negative.

Edit to say: I find it perversely reassuring that everyone has it bad. 

Edited February 23, 2015 by echo449