Harvard NELC vs. GSAS for Hebrew Bible

[pwe5000]

Any insight on the different between the PhD programs in NELC and GSAS for someone interested in a Hebrew Bible concentration? I'd assume that the NELC program requires more languages and is more focused on purely linguistic and philological issues, but the NELC website is pretty slim on details.

Edited March 1, 2015 by pwe5000

[newenglandshawn]

I'd assume that the NELC program requires more languages and is more focused on purely linguistic and philological issues, but the NELC website is pretty slim on details.

From my interactions with people from admissions, I'd say this pretty well encapsulates the difference. The GSAS also takes a little bit more of a "Religious Studies" approach as well I think.

[pwe5000]

Thanks for that info! The language focus also probably means that the average time to degree is a year or two longer in NELC, but the Harvard NELC website (as far as I can see) doesn't give that kind of info. If every program's website was as forthcoming as those of ND or YDS, I'd have fewer headaches in application prep.

[Abdelazar]

I think you mean NELC vs. CSR (Committee for the Study of Religion: http://studyofreligion.fas.harvard.edu/pages/phd-program).Both NELC and CSR are under GSAS (Graduate School of Arts & Sciences).

 

Like Shawn said, CSR seems to take a little more of a "religious studies" approach. For example, all CSR students have to take Religion 2001 and Religion 2002 (http://studyofreligion.fas.harvard.edu/pages/requirements-and-timeline). The requirements in that link also specify "other languages as required for specialization." NELC requires a major language (in the case of Hebrew Bible: Hebrew) and a second departmental language (http://nelc.fas.harvard.edu/graduate/phd). If your interests are less in a traditional ANE/languages/archaeology approach and more in a "religious studies" approach, it's possible that CSR may be a better fit, although I wouldn't apply through CSR only to try to get out of taking a cognate language like Aramaic, Akkadian, or Ugaritic.

 

For completion times,  CSR may be shorter than NELC but it sounds like it will depend on how quickly you progress with things  The timeline on the CSR page says "Students are expected to complete the Ph.D. in seven years. Only in unusual cases can the program be completed in less than four-and-a-half academic years." For NELC: "While the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences requires a student to complete the PhD program within ten years of entering the program, the target for all students is completion within seven years, and  under current rules no Harvard funding will be available to students beyond the seventh year" (http://nelc.fas.harvard.edu/year-five-and-beyond).

 

I asked Professor Machinist whether students ever apply to both programs and he said that applying to both would not improve your chances. He also seemed to indicate that students applying through CSR are competing with all the other applicants to different fields through CSR (e.g. African Religions, Buddhist studies, Comparative studies, etc.: http://studyofreligion.fas.harvard.edu/pages/research)and that there aren't necessarily Hebrew Bible spots guaranteed for CSR each year, while there will always generally be 2 or 3 spots through NELC. You may want to contact him or admissions for clarification on that. All the info I gave you except this last paragraph is on the Harvard website, although you have to do a little digging around. Hope this helps!

[Abdelazar]

Also, your reference to NELC as "more focused on purely linguistic and philological issues" is not really how the program is right now. You would be taking the same Hebrew Bible professors whether you applied through NELC or CSR and neither Prof. Levenson and Prof. Teeter have linguistics/philology as the main focus of their work in the way that Prof. Hackett and Prof. Huehnergard (formerly at Harvard, now at UTexas) do.

[pwe5000]

Thanks, Abdelazar, for the high quality information. I talked to a 3rd year U Chicago NELC student recently, and he said that 7-8 years is standard for them (he's doing NW Semitics) b/c of all the languages they are required to take. I'm very interested in studying cognate languages, but I'm not so keen on a 7-year PhD stint. It looks like Harvard's NELC (at least the ANE-HB field) is more of a "normal length" program on average though.

[newenglandshawn]

I asked Professor Machinist whether students ever apply to both programs and he said that applying to both would not improve your chances. 

 

Yeah, I don't think it improves one chances to apply to both, but in my interactions with Levenson, he told me it is very common for applicants to apply to both - and he encouraged me to do that very thing (though I only ended up applying to CSR). 

 

 

 He also seemed to indicate that students applying through CSR are competing with all the other applicants to different fields through CSR (e.g. African Religions, Buddhist studies, Comparative studies, etc.: http://studyofreligion.fas.harvard.edu/pages/research)and that there aren't necessarily Hebrew Bible spots guaranteed for CSR each year, while there will always generally be 2 or 3 spots through NELC. 

 

What I find a little odd about this is that last year the ThD was dissolved into the PhD through the CSR and, from my observations, they accepted at least one HB applicant into the ThD program every year. It was also my understanding that when the ThD and PhD were combined, they would still carry over the same dynamics that the ThD would have. But maybe I just assumed that.

 

Also, when I've looked back at the NELC applicants that were accepted in past years (according to the NELC site), it seemed that there were multiple years when no HB applicants were accepted - or at least matriculated.

[Abdelazar]

Yeah, I don't think it improves one chances to apply to both, but in my interactions with Levenson, he told me it is very common for applicants to apply to both - and he encouraged me to do that very thing (though I only ended up applying to CSR).

That's what Prof. Levenson told me also, but when I met with Prof. Machinist the next day he told me the information I mentioned above.  I got the understanding from him that CSR will try to admit 1 (maybe 2) Hebrew Bible PhD students a year, but that there are no "reserved" spots for HB students in CSR and that you would be competing with all the other CSR applicants. And I remember him specifically saying it would "not" improve your chances to apply to both. It might be best for anyone who wants clarification on the details (whether students often apply to both; how many HB students CSR takes a year) to email admissions.

 

Also, when I've looked back at the NELC applicants that were accepted in past years (according to the NELC site), it seemed that there were multiple years when no HB applicants were accepted - or at least matriculated.

Really? Where did you see that?

 

By the way, looking at current and recent Harvard NELC HB students, I noticed that many have come internally from the AM program (1-2 year Master's program: http://nelc.fas.harvard.edu/graduate/am),although some are accepted after completing MDiv or MA programs elsewhere.

[sacklunch]

What I have always heard is the NELC PhD will take a lot longer. That and you may not be getting a job anytime soon with the NELC PhD. 

Edited March 3, 2015 by sacklunch

[Abdelazar]

That and you may not be getting a job anytime soon with the NELC PhD. 

 

Why do you say that? Do you mean with Harvard's NELC PhD or the difficulty of finding work in general?

[sacklunch]

Why do you say that? Do you mean with Harvard's NELC PhD or the difficulty of finding work in general?

 

Nothing specific to Harvard. It's just insanely hard to find a job for someone in that field (e.g. Assyriologists)

[Enki Knows]

Cup o' joe is right about the job situation.  There are not many out there specifically for assyriologists, but you said you want to do Bible/ANE, and there are certainly more opportunities there (in addition to colleges and universities you also have seminaries).  There is still a job shortage regardless but programs are letting in fewer PhD candidates which means the market will have less competition within the next few years.  Also, in this field particularly, there will be a lot tenured professors retiring in the next few years (this is my field too).

 

As far as Harvard is concerned, I think you should really consider whether it's worth applying.   I ended up not applying this year because I was told by several professors in the field that nothing exciting is happening at Harvard right now.  Peter Machinist is going to be retiring soon and Levenson has been focused on other kinds of work (l heard inter-religious stuff?).  I also heard that at Harvard you're basically just a number - that is, the advisers do not take a real interest in their students, and that means that when its time to find a job, you might not get the strong letter of recommendation you would like since they might not really know you.  I'm not sure if you're currently in a masters program or not, but if you are, I would urge you talk about this with your professors.

 

Bible programs with strong ANE focus to consider are NYU GSAS (Mark Smith/Dan Fleming), Univ. of Chicago - Div School (there's also NELC but it seems like more interesting work is being done at the Div School right now), and Johns Hopkins.  NYU also has ISAW (Institute for the Study of the Ancient World), which I don't think does Bible specifically, but they do have a PhD program that might be worth a look...

[Abdelazar]

For anyone interested: as EnkiKnows said, Peter Machinist will be retiring soon. This upcoming Fall will be his last semester. Prof. Levenson has no plans to retire soon. His own work has been directed more toward ecumenical/inter-religious ends recently, but it seems like he would be happy to continue to supervise Hebrew Bible work. Andrew Teeter is up for tenure soon I believe. Other than that, Prof. Machinist's chair and the archaeology chair formerly occupied by Prof. Stager are endowed chairs so they will repopulate them at some point. As you can imagine, fields like Hebrew Bible are unfortunately on the periphery of the administration's concerns and unfortunately it seems like they are not in a rush to make sure the department is well-populated with faculty. The program certainly isn't the superstar NELC faculty it was in the past with people like Huehnergard, Hackett, Stager, and Frank Moore Cross. With that said, they still do offer courses in Akkadian (Steinkeller), the LXX (Richard Saley), and archaeology (Robert Homsher).

[pwe5000]

Thanks for the replies. I've heard similar things about Harvard before, and it's good to get confirmation from a specifically HB/ANE perspective. I'm definitely planning to apply to Chicago and Johns Hopkins, and possibly NYU as well, though I am married with 2 small children, and I'm not sure if Manhattan would be the best place for us to live.

[Enki Knows]

The outer-boroughs of NYC and Hoboken, NJ ( right across the river) can be very kid friendly.  Nobody that goes to NYU (with the exception of undergrads who live in dorms) actually live in Greenwich village - it's prohibitively expensive.  Not that I'm pushing NYU - just saying having kids is not a reason not to apply if the program is of interest.

[Abdelazar]

Thanks for the replies. I've heard similar things about Harvard before, and it's good to get confirmation from a specifically HB/ANE perspective. I'm definitely planning to apply to Chicago and Johns Hopkins, and possibly NYU as well, though I am married with 2 small children, and I'm not sure if Manhattan would be the best place for us to live.

Have you looked into UCLA? I get the impression that it's less competitive/selective than UChicago, Hopkins, and NYU, but still an excellent program.

[pwe5000]

UCLA is on my list. And way too many others! I'm going to do some culling before app time, but still I'm starting to set aside some money for app fees.

 

It's good to hear that UCLA is considered a good program. I'll keep that in mind.