Canada vs. US

[smpalesh]

Buffalofan4255 - Congrats on going to University of Toronto!  It really is a great school and I'm sure you will enjoy living in Canada.

[Buffalofan4255]

Also, the 2015 times higher education reputation rankings just came out. These rankings are just based on perceived reputation, not research funding or this or that.

University of toronto was #16, higher than UPenn, Johns Hopkins, Cornell, NYU, Brown, Carnegie mellon, and so many others.

[victorydance]

I wanted to add that McGill is competitively ranked in world university rankings with the other schools you mentioned.  University of Illinois is ranked 29th in the world, McGill is ranked 39th, and Penn State is ranked 58th.  So as you can see it is not much lower than University of Illinois and is quite a bit higher than Penn State.

 

Also, for the person who is trying to claim Canadian universities can't compete with US universities - not only is McGill ranked 39th in the world, ranking higher than MANY US universities, University of Toronto is ranked 20th and University of British Columbia is ranked 32nd .  To put that into perspective - University of Toronto is ranked higher than Northwestern, Carnegie Mellon, NYU and other schools that are typically seen as very good US schools. 

 

But none of this even matters for doctoral students. University of Illinois is a top 10 program in chemical engineering. Secondly, what matters more is placement records. Canadian universities rarely, if ever, place Ph.D. students in the USA or at top universities. 

[Pedro13]

University of Illinois is a top 10 program in chemical engineering.

Unfortunately, UIUC is not a top 10 ChE Program!

according to US News, It is 12th among universities in US and also it ranks 35th in the world by QS World University Ranking.

Plz do not mention incorrect information!!

Edited March 15, 2015 by Pedro13

[victorydance]

Unfortunately, UIUC is not a top 10 ChE Program!

according to US News, It is 12th among universities in US and also it ranks 35th in the world by QS World University Ranking.

Plz do not mention incorrect information!!

 

It is ranked in the top 10 or very near it in every available engineering category:

 

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-engineering-schools/university-of-illinois-urbana-champaign-02055

 

It is a top 10 program. Don't be obtuse. 

Edited March 15, 2015 by victorydance

[Pedro13]

I think we are talking about Chemical Engineering programs and it is not among top 10 programs in chemical engineering even in the link you mentioned.

you can find top 10 programs in chemical engineering here. As I said before, it is the 12th program and simply it is not a "top 10" program in chemical engineering 

have a nice day 

[Buffalofan4255]

Canada rarely places PhD's as professors in US schools? Really?

Firstly, there's only 3 Canadian schools that are top 100, with McMaster close but currently out.

Speaking from personal anecdote though, the president of my undergrad uni (in the states) got both his MSc and PhD from the U of T. My undergrad departments (2) have a combined 15 faculty members out of ~50 that have at least one of their graduate degrees from a top Canadian school.

The University of Waterloo is one of the biggest draws for top computer scientists and engineers in the world. Toronto is the 3rd biggest place in North America for startups, and the University of toronto was recently ranked #1 for startups in North America. You're 1. Talking out of your ass and 2. Being naive about an entire country if you're stating Canada doesn't produce top PhDs.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Buffalofan4255

[aberrant]

Seeing that this thread is getting off-topic, I would also point out that those rankings, especially "the world" ones, without paying attention to the ranking methodology, can really be taken as a grain of salt. (Especially the ones that counts "international faculty" as one of the major factor. I would only elaborate this through PM.)

[Buffalofan4255]

Of course rankings are completely subjective, however, they can certainly be used to get an indication of how well regarded universities are. On top of that, if all rankings are putting the University of Toronto between 14-24, I'm gonna agree that the University is between that range (I.e., best in Canada, better than Northeastern, NYU, and Carnegie Mellon for sure, etc).

[hussman]

I did my undergrad and master's at McGill and will move to the US for PhD next year. I find it very difficult to believe you will turn down UIUC in favour of McGill for Chem Eng.

 

This isn't just a US vs Canada thing, because McGill engineering is nowhere near as good as even UofT or Waterloo engineering. Sure, Montreal is an absolutely fantastic city, but your career prospects will be far better if you have a doctoral degree from UIUC.

 

As for the visa entry issue, that's up to you to figure out your priorities, I doubt anyone here will really be able to help you with that.

Edited March 15, 2015 by hussman

[victorydance]

I think we are talking about Chemical Engineering programs and it is not among top 10 programs in chemical engineering even in the link you mentioned.

you can find top 10 programs in chemical engineering here. As I said before, it is the 12th program and simply it is not a "top 10" program in chemical engineering 

have a nice day 

 

Come on man, 12th place is close enough to top 10, and considering every single other ranking of engineering has it in the top 10; I can conclusively say that it is a top 10 program. 

 

Canada rarely places PhD's as professors in US schools? Really?

Firstly, there's only 3 Canadian schools that are top 100, with McMaster close but currently out.

Speaking from personal anecdote though, the president of my undergrad uni (in the states) got both his MSc and PhD from the U of T. My undergrad departments (2) have a combined 15 faculty members out of ~50 that have at least one of their graduate degrees from a top Canadian school.

The University of Waterloo is one of the biggest draws for top computer scientists and engineers in the world. Toronto is the 3rd biggest place in North America for startups, and the University of toronto was recently ranked #1 for startups in North America. You're 1. Talking out of your ass and 2. Being naive about an entire country if you're stating Canada doesn't produce top PhDs.

 

Yes, that's correct, even among the top 3 (UBC, U of T, and McGill) placements for TT jobs in the US are incredibly rare; for programs outside of the top 3, its virtually non-existent. 

 

In my discipline, political science, I have never seen a Canadian Ph.D. in any well-ranked program. For example, if you look at McGill's placements since 1995 (http://www.mcgill.ca/politicalscience/grad/news/recentplacements) you will only see 4 TT placements at American schools and this is from a list of ~100 placements. U of T Ph.Ds rarely place in American universities, neither do graduates from UBC.

 

Expanding things...I have googled random placement rates from various disciplines:

 

http://www.economics.utoronto.ca/index.php/index/graduate/placement(~4 TT in last 10 years)

 

http://www.mcgill.ca/english/graduate/placement(~6 TT in last 20 years)

 

http://philosophy.ubc.ca/grad/philosophy-placement-program/philosophy-placement-data/(~2 TT placements in last 12 years)

 

http://www.mcgill.ca/sociology/grad/recent-placements(0 TT in last 10 years)

 

Even those who got placed, a lot of them are at tier II or III state schools. None of them are at any top 20 or even decent end R1 schools.

 

The simple fact is I am not talking out of my ass. It is rare for a Ph.D. student from a Canadian university to get placed in an American school, and almost impossible for graduates out of the top 3 programs. Are there exceptions? Certainly, but that doesn't mean what I said was incorrect. 

 

If you want a job in academia in the USA, do not do your Ph.D. at a Canadian university it is as simple as that. The job market is already tough enough, no sense making it nearly impossible. 

Edited March 15, 2015 by victorydance

[Buffalofan4255]

You know, it's kinda dumb that you're equating job opportunities with academic University affiliation. I'd say this is a case where a statistical relationship doesn't equal causation. Let me explain...

U of T has about 500 American students total between grad and undergrad. Yes, it's an incredibly small amount. Fact of the matter is McGill is the only Canadian school that actively recruits in the US. Doesn't mean that if you get a PhD from a Canadian school, you're doomed for American academic jobs. Instead of judging that a PhD from Toronto will be sub-par towards PhD from Illinois, perhaps it's better to judge how academics view a university's prestige instead. Because with only 500 American students, PhDs vying to get an American academic post is rare and hard to come by. Perhaps that's the reason why Canada hasn't sent as many academics into US schools as the average US school does. Perhaps Canadian PhDs want to stay and continue to live in Canada.

Back to my proposition to best judge whether a degree from a particular institution is worth it from a reputational stand-point. Look at the THE 2015 rankings, they survey academics from around the world, and is one of the best measures. And with that said, U of T was ranked #16 by academics. Case closed.

[Buffalofan4255]

You know, it's kinda dumb that you're equating job opportunities with academic University affiliation. I'd say this is a case where a statistical relationship doesn't equal causation. Let me explain...

U of T has about 500 American students total between grad and undergrad. Yes, it's an incredibly small amount. Fact of the matter is McGill is the only Canadian school that actively recruits in the US. Doesn't mean that if you get a PhD from a Canadian school, you're doomed for American academic jobs. Instead of judging that a PhD from Toronto will be sub-par towards PhD from Illinois, perhaps it's better to judge how academics view a university's prestige instead. Because with only 500 American students, PhDs vying to get an American academic post is rare and hard to come by. Perhaps that's the reason why Canada hasn't sent as many academics into US schools as the average US school does. Perhaps Canadian PhDs want to stay and continue to live in Canada.

Back to my proposition to best judge whether a degree from a particular institution is worth it from a reputational stand-point. Look at the THE 2015 rankings, they survey academics from around the world, and is one of the best measures for this question. And with that said, U of T was ranked #16 by academics. Case closed.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Buffalofan4255

[victorydance]

You know, it's kinda dumb that you're equating job opportunities with academic University affiliation. 

 

This is how the academic job market works. 

 

If you are looking to work in academia, one of the first things you should look at is the placement rates of its graduates. Because at the end of the day, where your program is placing its Ph.D. students is all the matters not what some random academics say about the prestige of the general university in some survey. 

[Buffalofan4255]

Dude I was just looking at the U of T list for economics...

I see Australian National University, University of Chicago, Yale, Carnegie Mellon, UCLA, UC Davis, Berkeley, George Washington U, University of Sydney, National University of Singapore, Temple University, Duke University, London School of Economics, University of Bonn, West Virginia University, and Arizona State after looking at it for 1 minute flat. I've also noticed that the majority of the students are Asian, meaning the majority will go back to their home nations, and yet we still have an incredible list of institutions here based in Australia, US, Canada, and UK. Are you talking out of your ass or what?

Edited March 16, 2015 by Buffalofan4255

[victorydance]

Dude I was just looking at the U of T list for economics...

I see Australian National University, University of Chicago, Yale, Carnegie Mellon, UCL, UC Davis, Berkeley, University of Bonn, West Virginia University, and Arizona State after looking at it for 1 minute flat. Are you talking out of your ass or what?

 

Can you stop with the cheeky "talking out of your ass."

 

I counted 6 TT placements in American schools, what is exactly wrong about that?

 

BTW, the Yale placement is a lecturer not TT. 

 

Listen, I realize you are attending U of T, but you seem to be a little touchy about this and I suggest that you are looking at this from a very biased point of view. 

Edited March 15, 2015 by victorydance

[Buffalofan4255]

I'm not touchy about this, you stated you found 4 total TTs on that economics list, and now you're correcting yourself with 6 after I've pointed it out. (Btw I counted 10 without extensively going through the list). Outside of just American schools, I see top tier research universities from China (Peking), Australia (ANU + U of S), Singapore (NSU), and the UK (LSE). I'm simply questioning your own objectivity and obvious bias against going to a perfectly good school outside the United States. While the US offers outstanding education, I'd argue that a PhD from U of T or UWaterloo is at least equal, if not completely better, than an Illinois PhD when it comes to job opportunities. As for McGill engineering, yes, Illinois is miles ahead, McGill is known for its humanities. 

Edited March 16, 2015 by Buffalofan4255

[victorydance]

I'm not touchy about this, you stated you found 4 total TTs on that economics list, and now you're correcting yourself with 6 after I've pointed it out. (Btw I counted 10 without extensively going through the list). Outside of just American schools, I see top tier research universities from China (Peking), Australia (ANU + U of S), Singapore (NSU), and the UK (LSE). I'm simply questioning your own objectivity and obvious bias against going to a perfectly good school outside the United States. While the US offers outstanding education, I'd argue that a PhD from U of T or UWaterloo is at least equal, if not completely better, than an Illinois PhD when it comes to job opportunities. As for McGill engineering, yes, Illinois is miles ahead, McGill is known for its humanities. 

 

After looking at it again, there is 8 people who found TT jobs at American schools. 

 

I don't have any bias...I am stating information that I have gathered from a number of people employed in academia and my own research. I am Canadian for the record. 

 

I made the statement that "Canadian universities rarely, if ever, place Ph.D. students in the USA or at top universities." You have not done anything to disprove this statement. I posted a bunch of websites that point to an approx 0-5% of its placements (and this is top 3, not even considering the other 50 or so universities in Canada) at American schools or top universities. This isn't even counting the plethora of students who don't place anywhere in academia which would skew the data even further towards my direction. When you boil it down, you are probably looking at less than 1% of all Ph.D. students from Canadian schools getting placed in the US.

 

And once again, UIUC is a top 10 engineering program. I am willing to bet any money that they are placing their graduates at much better universities than any university in Canada. Of course, the data isn't available, but if you look at some of their placements from the materials engineering program (http://www.matse.illinois.edu/jobplacement.html ) you can see that they are placing students at universities like Princeton, Harvard, and Berkeley. 

 

So bottom line, if you think placing 0-5% of your graduates in American or top universities constitutes a more than "rare" threshold then there is no point continuing this discussion. 

Edited March 16, 2015 by victorydance

[nugget]

 

 

http://www.economics.utoronto.ca/index.php/index/graduate/placement(~4 TT in last 10 years)

 

http://www.mcgill.ca/english/graduate/placement(~6 TT in last 20 years)

 

http://philosophy.ubc.ca/grad/philosophy-placement-program/philosophy-placement-data/(~2 TT placements in last 12 years)

 

http://www.mcgill.ca/sociology/grad/recent-placements(0 TT in last 10 years)

 

 

 

The simple fact is I am not talking out of my ass. It is rare for a Ph.D. student from a Canadian university to get placed in an American school, and almost impossible for graduates out of the top 3 programs. Are there exceptions? Certainly, but that doesn't mean what I said was incorrect. 

 

If you want a job in academia in the USA, do not do your Ph.D. at a Canadian university it is as simple as that. The job market is already tough enough, no sense making it nearly impossible. 

 

Have you considered that not all Canadians are interested in living in the US? This could partially account for low numbers. Some people don't make all of their life decisions based on money and prestige and may favour others things like quality of life, free healthcare, and proximity to family and friends over status and $$$.   

[Buffalofan4255]

If you want to go from your own personal anecdote, I'll go off mine. The president of my uni is a U of T PhD and MSc. My own department is 30%+ Canadian PhDs/Msc's as well! You surmised that less than 1% of Canadian PhDs get US placements. You basically pulled that out of your...can you guess it? You have 0 credibility. 

[Buffalofan4255]

"UIUC is a top 10 engineering program. I am willing to bet any money that they are placing their graduates at much better universities than any university in Canada. Of course, the data isn't available..."

 

OK dude, you admit you have no data, yet you will put down any $ amount (Let's say $1 billion just for fun, hey we're playing by your rules!) not a single Canadian school sends out its PhDs to top schools at a rate similar to Illinois. Okay everyone, send the children of the earth to the USA!! *Does constant USA chants*

[victorydance]

Have you considered that not all Canadians are interested in living in the US? This could partially account for low numbers. Some people don't make all of their life decisions based on money and prestige and may favour others things like quality of life, free healthcare, and proximity to family and friends over status and $$$.   

 

I think that it could have an effect, sure. But not sure how much of an effect it could have. That being said you have presented a bit of a false dichotomy here, there is nothing to suggest that getting an academic job in the US won't afford you a similar or higher quality of life, healthcare situation, or proximity to family and friends (Canada is a very large country and much of its population lives close to the US border). 

 

If you want to go from your own personal anecdote, I'll go off mine. The president of my uni is a U of T PhD and MSc. My own department is 30%+ Canadian PhDs/Msc's as well! You surmised that less than 1% of Canadian PhDs get US placements. You basically pulled that out of your...can you guess it? You have 0 credibility. 

 

I don't care about your anecdotal evidence. And also having a MSc from a Canadian university has nothing to do with your Ph.D. placement so that number is grossly inflated. 

 

I didn't pull that number out of my ass, once again, you are being obtuse. It's based on the following reasoning:

 

I looked at 5 to 6 different discipline's placement rates from top 3 universities and out of all the placements you are seeing 0-5% getting placed in the US. This is not counting any programs outside of the top 3, if we included program's from universities such as Concordia, UVic, SFU, ect. there would probably be 0% of its Ph.D. students placing in the US. Furthermore, we aren't counting all the doctoral students who didn't get placed at all, which I assure you is a sizable number. It's not hard to look at that information and come to a less than 1% number.

 

If you really want to prove me wrong, go ahead and pick 5 or 6 evenly ranked program placement records and see if it passes the 1% threshold. 

[victorydance]

"UIUC is a top 10 engineering program. I am willing to bet any money that they are placing their graduates at much better universities than any university in Canada. Of course, the data isn't available..."

 

OK dude, you admit you have no data, yet you will put down any $ amount (Let's say $1 billion just for fun, hey we're playing by your rules!) not a single Canadian school sends out its PhDs to top schools at a rate similar to Illinois. Okay everyone, send the children of the earth to the USA!! *Does constant USA chants*

 

Are you really going to go on the limb and say any program in Canada in engineering is regularly placing its students at universities like Harvard, Princeton, or Berkeley?

Edited March 16, 2015 by victorydance

[Buffalofan4255]

My question, do you have any definitive proof they're not?

 

Another anecdote...

U of Washington Dept. of Geography (one of the top Geography programs in the country) - 4 Canadians

http://depts.washington.edu/geog/faculty/

[Buffalofan4255]

PhDs in English from Toronto...

'13-'14 TT:

-Chicago

-Marquette

-Michigan

-Other Canadian schools...

 

http://www.english.utoronto.ca/grad/placement.htm