Terminal MA: Thesis or Non-thesis

[Duns Eith]

I got accepted to some terminal MA programs that are nearly identical in ranking/reputation/placement record. Their financial packages are nearly the same, when all the math is figured (tuition, fees, cost of living, etc.). They both have thesis and non-thesis tracks. I spoke with one of my undergrad profs who said that I should definitely do the thesis track. This is what I was intending to do, as I think it would better prepare me for the depth of a PhD dissertation. I even have some ideas on what I might write on.

• Program X has courses in topics I am interested in and would fill some minor gaps in my education, but currently no one at that program is doing the thesis track. Their faculty say that the students find it "too difficult," and would rather spend time working on conferences/presenting talks/making excellent term papers. (to be used as writing samples for the PhD)
• Program Y has a thesis track, and it is my understanding that thesis is common. Even non-thesis track defend their best term paper by an oral exam. But Y's courses are basically a grad level repetition of my philosophy major (corresponding titles, figures covered, required courses, etc.), with only 5-6 classes that I haven't taken a corresponding course in undergrad -- 2 of which I would be actually be interested in taking.

All other things being equal (placement, reputation, faculty, finances, location, etc.), which would you go with?

 

Goal: I am intending to go onto a PhD (prolly applying to: Michigan, Notre Dame, Toronto, UW Madison, Ohio State, IU Bloomington, Purdue, UWO)

[Duns Eith]

Of course, there is the option with going to Program X and go against the flow by taking the thesis track...

[philstudent1991]

All else being equal, thesis for sure. Some MA programs (that have both tracks) have a policy of not writing letters for those that don't do a thesis in order to encourage students, in the most extreme of ways, to do the thesis . The thesis is huge opportunity to work closely with instructors, get a really solid writing sample, give letter writers good material for their LORs, and it's great practice for the things that will be asked of you during a dissertation. And if I were an adcomm (which I'm not), I would be much more impressed by a student who did a thesis than by one who didn't. 

[agrizz]

I'm not in philosophy, but I would say program Y.  In my experience, a thesis is a must - doctoral programs want evidence that you can handle the depth of study and critique that comes with an oral defense.  Pubs and presentations are good, but you should strive to do these even with a thesis and you should try to put together a thesis worthy of publication in itself.  

 

Beyond that, any program that tells you "our students find it too hard" is a red flag for me.  Why is it too hard? Can you not prepare your students for that level of study? Have you not designed your program appropriately?  

 

Furthermore, I wouldn't denigrate program Y on the basis of similar coursework... if there's one thing I learned from my previous stints in grad work, a reputable program is not going to reteach you a topic, they are going to delve much deeper than you realize you can go.  Sure, there will be overlap, but I can tell you I had 3 courses that I thought would be strictly review... and they were... for the first week of the course only.  

[Duns Eith]

 

Some MA programs (that have both tracks) have a policy of not writing letters for those that don't do a thesis in order to encourage students, in the most extreme of ways, to do the thesis

True, but this doesn't apply in this case.

 

 

The thesis is huge opportunity to work closely with instructors, get a really solid writing sample, give letter writers good material for their LORs, and it's great practice for the things that will be asked of you during a dissertation. And if I were an adcomm (which I'm not), I would be much more impressed by a student who did a thesis than by one who didn't. 

 

This is what I have been thinking. That, and I want to write a thesis, as I think I would be better prepared. I guess I am just not excited about taking basically the same courses (albeit deeper) all over again -- the course descriptions aren't even covering different philosophers than I already covered. It would be kind of sadpanda.jpg if I wasn't enthusiastic about my program.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Turretin

[MissingBlue]

Thesis. At the school where it is common to do the thesis.

A thesis will either give you a good writing sample or develop your skills to produce a good writing sample. And it will provide good material for a decent LOR.

Also, writing a thesis is hard and lonely. Harder and lonier than you expect. You will need peers that are going through the same thing.

Finally regarding the subject matter. What you cover in the MA courses will inevitably differ from what you've done already--even if it's the same topics, your thoughts on the topics will be new.

I think it ultimately comes down to why you're doing the MA. If it's to get into a PhD, then skills are more important than subject matter. You'll do new material during the PhD, but you need certain skills to get there.

Edit: I would also be VERY concerned about the claim that students find a thesis too hard. That doesn't sound like a place that places importance on adequate preparation for a PhD.

Edited March 11, 2015 by missing_shade_of_blue

[Duns Eith]

Thanks for the replies. I need to think about this some more. But I want to remind that as far as adcoms go, they have nearly the same placement record.

 

MSoB: I will reply later; your post is really helpful.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Turretin

[isostheneia]

I agree with everyone else here than writing a thesis is a good option. I also think it could be a red flag that most students at Program X don't write a thesis. I would talk to profs and students there to try to find out exactly why that's the case.

 

One potential benefit of Program X is that if you do write a thesis, you might be able to stand out in the program and get some great letters of rec. Of course, if there are legitimate issues with the thesis track there (not enough faculty support, it would hurt your grades, etc), then it would seem to be a bad idea.

[ianfaircloud]

Just a quick note: Some programs say that they require a "thesis" when what they mean is that they require a short paper (like 20-30pp). I think all that matters (in terms of research) in the MA is that you produce a strong paper that serves as your writing sample for PhD admissions. That strong paper may be around 20-30pp (before it's trimmed for purposes of applications). If PhD admission is the goal, I would not devote time in the MA program to a paper longer than the 20-30pp. MA is all about getting that application together. I've heard that profs on admission committees do not have time to look beyond the elements of your application. A very long thesis will have limited effect on these elements. Rule of thumb: "Do only those things that will improve the elements of your application." I assume that some of the previous posters in this thread are thinking along these lines (thesis = short paper of 20-30pp).

[MissingBlue]

Just a quick note: Some programs say that they require a "thesis" when what they mean is that they require a short paper (like 20-30pp). I think all that matters (in terms of research) in the MA is that you produce a strong paper that serves as your writing sample for PhD admissions. That strong paper may be around 20-30pp (before it's trimmed for purposes of applications). If PhD admission is the goal, I would not devote time in the MA program to a paper longer than the 20-30pp. MA is all about getting that application together. I've heard that profs on admission committees do not have time to look beyond the elements of your application. A very long thesis will have limited effect on these elements. Rule of thumb: "Do only those things that will improve the elements of your application." I assume that some of the previous posters in this thread are thinking along these lines (thesis = short paper of 20-30pp).

This is a good point, but I think a much longer thesis can still help with the WS, either with skills, or using a section of it for the writing sample. (E.g. I adapted the chapter of my MA thesis where I presented most of my original work for a writing sample--I tweaked it here or there, changed some things given objections and concerns provided by my readers, and added an appropriate intro and conclusion).

I think if the thesis is a longer project it's important to keep the adaptation option in mind and produce chapters that could stand alone, or be easily adapted into a stand alone thing. This is also a good idea if you want to present or publish some of the work done for the thesis.

Edited March 11, 2015 by missing_shade_of_blue

[philstudent1991]

 

Beyond that, any program that tells you "our students find it too hard" is a red flag for me.  Why is it too hard? Can you not prepare your students for that level of study? Have you not designed your program appropriately?  

 

I had this thought as well. No idea what the programs are so I don't know if this is actually the case, but my thought was that how could a letter writer at this MA sincerely recommend a student for doctoral study if they haven't seen them work on an MA thesis, and in fact, they may think (given what the OP said) that the student is in fact not capable of an MA thesis, and surely then not capable of a dissertation. Just imagine the difference between the letters:

 

"This student completed an MA thesis under my direction on X where she argued Y, and it was very good." versus

 

"I have no idea if this student can work well without direction or not. I realize that phd attrition is almost entirely during the dissertation stage, and I have no special reason to think this student will be prepared for that. I know you would be making a big investment in accepting this student. So what do you say? Want to roll the dice? ;)" 

 

Obv this is hyperbole but the point is that I agree with agrizz that the program not seeming to think too highly of its students capabilities is a red flag to me. Maybe there is something I'm missing. 

[Establishment]

I'm actually going to go against the grain here. I think attending an MA program that has courses you'll be able to learn new material from, and be interested in, is a lot more important than a thesis/non-thesis option. You're going to be taking around twelve courses over your two years. Your thesis/non-thesis is basically one-twelfth of that, as it's one course your final semester (if you replace one of your regular classes with a thesis writing/exam prep. course).

 

Additionally, I know the culture at NIU is not to do the thesis option, but the exam option there is incredibly challenging, and they are nevertheless incredibly successful at placement.

 

So sure, all things being equal, do a thesis over non-thesis. But that's not the case here, and I'd worry about over privileging thesis/non-thesis.

[dunkeater]

I second Establishment's argument. I'm currently at a terminal MA program, and most students here choose not to do a thesis. Not because a thesis is too hard, but rather because of the importance of taking a range of courses (particularly graduate seminars). 

 

Graduate seminars provide much better opportunities for a concise, effective writing sample. Thesis papers are often done separately from the writing sample because they're too long and broad. 

 

Our program has had great placement so far this year, and successful placements have been unaffected by who chose to do a thesis. 

[MissingBlue]

I second Establishment's argument. I'm currently at a terminal MA program, and most students here choose not to do a thesis. Not because a thesis is too hard, but rather because of the importance of taking a range of courses (particularly graduate seminars).

Graduate seminars provide much better opportunities for a concise, effective writing sample. Thesis papers are often done separately from the writing sample because they're too long and broad.

Our program has had great placement so far this year, and successful placements have been unaffected by who chose to do a thesis.

I don't think the concern here is whether seminars are better than a thesis; it's whether seminars+thesis is better than seminars alone. I agree that seminars are very important in a number of ways, but a thesis gives you something that the seminars can't--the skills required to do independent research. Seminars are too structured to offer an adequate level of practice at independent scholarship.

[dunkeater]

I don't think the concern here is whether seminars are better than a thesis; it's whether seminars+thesis is better than seminars alone. I agree that seminars are very important in a number of ways, but a thesis gives you something that the seminars can't--the skills required to do independent research. Seminars are too structured to offer an adequate level of practice at independent scholarship.

 

I was arguing that often seminars alone > seminars + thesis. 

 

I don't deny the potential value of a thesis, but the amount of work required to do a thesis can take away from the time you have to write a concise writing sample. If your thesis and writing sample are different projects, as they often are, they can detract from each other. 

 

A thesis will definitely provide valuable research and writing experience. But I want to push back against the idea that non-thesis options are inferior. The right path for each student varies too much on individual situations for such broad claims to be true. 

[MissingBlue]

I was arguing that often seminars alone > seminars + thesis.

I don't deny the potential value of a thesis, but the amount of work required to do a thesis can take away from the time you have to write a concise writing sample. If your thesis and writing sample are different projects, as they often are, they can detract from each other.

A thesis will definitely provide valuable research and writing experience. But I want to push back against the idea that non-thesis options are inferior. The right path for each student varies too much on individual situations for such broad claims to be true.

Oh, I see. Fair enough.

[Duns Eith]

I'll be back in a bit, but here's the placement records (as I calculate them) for Program Y. They have a really good high percentage of acceptance to PhD, but I found the percentage that actually applied for phil programs from their MA interesting.

 

Program Y
 

Year Gradt'd Applied %Applied %Placed
2014   8        3       37.5%  100.0%
2013   5        3       60.0%  100.0%
2012   9        2       22.2%  100.0%
2011   5        5      100.0%  100.0%
2010   8        4       50.0%  100.0%
2009   6        4       66.7%  100.0%
2008   6        5       83.3%  100.0%
2007   6        3       50.0%  100.0%
2006  14        5       35.7%   60.0%
2005   5        3       60.0%  100.0%

This suggests me that my original assumption (that most take the thesis track) needs to be questioned.

 

---

 

Program X

 

I cannot find how many in a cohort applied for PhD. I'll ask some grad students. I checked the schools that people got into: graduates of X got into somewhat better schools than Y, but X doesn't have as high of a placement rate as Y.

 

Year Applied Placed  %Placed
2014    3      3      100%
2013    8      7      88%
2012    6      6      100%
2011    7      7      100%
2010   12      9      75%
2009   12      6      50%
2008   13     13      100%
2007    6      6      100%
2006 No data No data No data
2005 No data No data No data

Edited March 12, 2015 by Turretin

[dgswaim]

I vote thesis. That is all.

[Duns Eith]

I'm not in philosophy, but I would say program Y.  In my experience, a thesis is a must - doctoral programs want evidence that you can handle the depth of study and critique that comes with an oral defense.  Pubs and presentations are good, but you should strive to do these even with a thesis and you should try to put together a thesis worthy of publication in itself.  

 

Beyond that, any program that tells you "our students find it too hard" is a red flag for me.  Why is it too hard? Can you not prepare your students for that level of study? Have you not designed your program appropriately?  

 

Furthermore, I wouldn't denigrate program Y on the basis of similar coursework... if there's one thing I learned from my previous stints in grad work, a reputable program is not going to reteach you a topic, they are going to delve much deeper than you realize you can go.  Sure, there will be overlap, but I can tell you I had 3 courses that I thought would be strictly review... and they were... for the first week of the course only.  

Good points. I will ask some grad students at Program Y as to why they don't chose the thesis track, and whether it factored in their decision to go to the school. (e.g. were they planning on it, but jumped over to the non-thesis track?)

 

That's also a good point. I realize that it will be review briefly; even so, I would certainly benefit from revisiting the same topics as I have taken a pseudo-hiatus while I got my MA in religion. (I say pseudo, because I've been reading philosophy all the while, just not taking courses on it)

 

Thesis. At the school where it is common to do the thesis.

A thesis will either give you a good writing sample or develop your skills to produce a good writing sample. And it will provide good material for a decent LOR.

Also, writing a thesis is hard and lonely. Harder and lonier than you expect. You will need peers that are going through the same thing.

Finally regarding the subject matter. What you cover in the MA courses will inevitably differ from what you've done already--even if it's the same topics, your thoughts on the topics will be new.

I think it ultimately comes down to why you're doing the MA. If it's to get into a PhD, then skills are more important than subject matter. You'll do new material during the PhD, but you need certain skills to get there.

Edit: I would also be VERY concerned about the claim that students find a thesis too hard. That doesn't sound like a place that places importance on adequate preparation for a PhD.

Thanks. From your standpoint, it sounds like a thesis is the best preparation for PhD, rather than a broad level of coursework.

 

In a PhD there is a simultaneous requirement of breadth and depth. I think any way the MA can help prepare you for either aspect (ideally, both), the better situated you are. You seem to be landing on the side that, if you had to choose just one, choose depth.

 

I agree with everyone else here than writing a thesis is a good option. I also think it could be a red flag that most students at Program X don't write a thesis. I would talk to profs and students there to try to find out exactly why that's the case.

 

One potential benefit of Program X is that if you do write a thesis, you might be able to stand out in the program and get some great letters of rec. Of course, if there are legitimate issues with the thesis track there (not enough faculty support, it would hurt your grades, etc), then it would seem to be a bad idea.

 

For clarity, Program Y most students don't, ...I haven't verified whether Program X most don't do the thesis yet. I am sorry I am not revealing which program is which. It would remove confusion.

 

In both cases, the thesis takes 6 credit hours out of the 30 needed to graduate with the MA. I am unsure, as many have mentioned, whether LORs would be significantly different. My guess is that the biggest difference is that one LOR would be outstanding. Maybe that's justification enough.

 

Just a quick note: Some programs say that they require a "thesis" when what they mean is that they require a short paper (like 20-30pp). I think all that matters (in terms of research) in the MA is that you produce a strong paper that serves as your writing sample for PhD admissions. That strong paper may be around 20-30pp (before it's trimmed for purposes of applications). If PhD admission is the goal, I would not devote time in the MA program to a paper longer than the 20-30pp. MA is all about getting that application together. I've heard that profs on admission committees do not have time to look beyond the elements of your application. A very long thesis will have limited effect on these elements. Rule of thumb: "Do only those things that will improve the elements of your application." I assume that some of the previous posters in this thread are thinking along these lines (thesis = short paper of 20-30pp).

I can't find anywhere it says how long a thesis is typically. I'd have to ask. If by credit 1 = 10-15 pages, then 6 = 60-75 pages. Both programs require 6 credits for thesis, and even allow more.

 

My senior thesis/capstone seminar in my undergrad was 27 pages, without biblography.

 

Your rule of thumb sounds really, really helpful. That might be my single question I ask at every aspect of decision (rank, faculty, reputation, course choices, thesis/non-thesis, location, conferences/colloqium availability, etc.). For me, the MA is an end in itself (hence my desire to write a thesis), but it is also being used as a means of spring board to PhD.

 

This is a good point, but I think a much longer thesis can still help with the WS, either with skills, or using a section of it for the writing sample. (E.g. I adapted the chapter of my MA thesis where I presented most of my original work for a writing sample--I tweaked it here or there, changed some things given objections and concerns provided by my readers, and added an appropriate intro and conclusion).

I think if the thesis is a longer project it's important to keep the adaptation option in mind and produce chapters that could stand alone, or be easily adapted into a stand alone thing. This is also a good idea if you want to present or publish some of the work done for the thesis.

I actually assumed going into this whole process I would be adapting my thesis as a WS. But given what other people have said made me question how reasonable I can expect to adapt it, while I am, after all, only half-way through writing that thesis by the time I am submitting applications. Many of the programs need the apps in by early December the year prior. I think this factor is very, very important to the decision.

 

I had this thought as well. No idea what the programs are so I don't know if this is actually the case, but my thought was that how could a letter writer at this MA sincerely recommend a student for doctoral study if they haven't seen them work on an MA thesis, and in fact, they may think (given what the OP said) that the student is in fact not capable of an MA thesis, and surely then not capable of a dissertation. Just imagine the difference between the letters:

 

"This student completed an MA thesis under my direction on X where she argued Y, and it was very good." versus

 

"I have no idea if this student can work well without direction or not. I realize that phd attrition is almost entirely during the dissertation stage, and I have no special reason to think this student will be prepared for that. I know you would be making a big investment in accepting this student. So what do you say? Want to roll the dice? ;)" 

 

Obv this is hyperbole but the point is that I agree with agrizz that the program not seeming to think too highly of its students capabilities is a red flag to me. Maybe there is something I'm missing. 

That is hyperbole to distortion, and I actually don't think this was helpful.

 

I'm actually going to go against the grain here. I think attending an MA program that has courses you'll be able to learn new material from, and be interested in, is a lot more important than a thesis/non-thesis option. You're going to be taking around twelve courses over your two years. Your thesis/non-thesis is basically one-twelfth of that, as it's one course your final semester (if you replace one of your regular classes with a thesis writing/exam prep. course).

 

Additionally, I know the culture at NIU is not to do the thesis option, but the exam option there is incredibly challenging, and they are nevertheless incredibly successful at placement.

 

So sure, all things being equal, do a thesis over non-thesis. But that's not the case here, and I'd worry about over privileging thesis/non-thesis.

In my case, the thesis track is actually 1/6 of either program (6/30 credits). Actually, at Program X non-thesis requires 33 credits; Program Y both are 30 credits. That said, while it makes a bigger difference than you are suggesting, your points were helpful.

 

I second Establishment's argument. I'm currently at a terminal MA program, and most students here choose not to do a thesis. Not because a thesis is too hard, but rather because of the importance of taking a range of courses (particularly graduate seminars). 

 

Graduate seminars provide much better opportunities for a concise, effective writing sample. Thesis papers are often done separately from the writing sample because they're too long and broad. 

 

Our program has had great placement so far this year, and successful placements have been unaffected by who chose to do a thesis. 

Huh. Interesting. Thanks.

 

I vote thesis. That is all.

Thanks

 

P.S.

Thanks everyone for your replies. This discussion has been pretty good and helpful for me thus far.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Turretin

[DontFly]

I'll vote against thesis, provided the following:

• Not having to write a thesis still gives you a supervisor
• It is common practice (or requirement) for non-thesis students to write a writing-sample length paper with the supervisor in a process similar to that of the thesis.

I come from an MA with two options (thesis vs. professional paper). If you plan to go on to do a PhD, what you need at the end of the MA is a really polished writing sample. Not a thesis. Nobody will (let's face it) read your MA thesis.

But if MA is all you want, then by all means do a thesis. Also note that writing a thesis may significantly lengthen your time in the MA.

 

EDIT: After reading your replies, I'd like to make the following clarification - 

• Thesis at my program is 100-150 pages long, where professional paper is 20-25 pages. If the difference is simply "write or not write", I'd say go with "write".
• While thesis may help with writing sample, it is really difficult to get just as good a shorter piece from a part of the original piece. I know this by having to adapt my 20-page writing sample to a 10-page one (which some places require) - it takes a lot of time; I didn't get as much help on the shorter one as I did with the longer one, unless I wanted to present it as a different project and extended my stay.
• I've still got a hope at polishing it for publication soon after I start my PhD, which, if happens, would give me a head start.

Edited March 13, 2015 by DontFly

[philstudent1991]

^100-150 page thesis? Boy, that's not what I think of when I think of a thesis. I think 30-50. No idea which is closer to standard.

[Duns Eith]

I was thinking an MA thesis should be anywhere between 50 and 100 pages, with the average being about 72. Double spaced.

That's my shot in the dark.

[Page228]

My MA thesis next year will be 30-40 pages.

[herenowagain]

MA Thesis should be 30-70 pages. Mine was stupidly like 150, but don't emulate my dumbass.

[MissingBlue]

Mine was 65, but the upper limit was closer to 130. But it wasn't a US programme, so take it for what it's worth.

I don't think the length requirements are very strict so it can be as long or as short as appropriate for adequately presenting and critically evaluating your position.

It's definitely a good idea to get some details on the thesis before deciding between the two schools.

Regarding depth: yes go with depth. Almost every applicant will have done some ethics, some metaphysics, some epistemology etc. and everyone will have done some Descartes, some Hume, some Kripke etc. Breadth doesn't make you stand out. But a little breadth plus some proper depth might.