Lower PhD program vs MS and reapply?

[Stats2015]

I received an offer from a lower ranked PhD program and several funded offers to MS programs.

I am still waiting to hear from several other PhD programs but at this point I am not holding my breath.

My question is if I scored poorly on the GRE (Q 156) this round but had a reasonable package otherwise, would it be in my best interest to accept the PhD offer I currently have or go for a funded MS program, try to raise my GRE score, and reapply after my MS degree?

The PhD offer I received is from a decent (but smaller) school and they made me a pretty good offer. I just don't want to look back later and wonder if I could've bettered my situation by trying for a higher ranked program.

[.letmeinplz//]

Are the MS schools ones you would like to do your PhD at? The reason I applied to MS was because I know my application is probably not very strong for a PhD at the schools I applied for, but I know that most of them have an internal way to convert to PhD (or continue on to after your thesis) that I hope to do. Most are basically petitions signed by your advisor.

So if some of those MS schools are ones you would like to do your PhD at, why not go that route to strengthen your application (or even continue on)?

Edited March 19, 2015 by <ian>

[Stats2015]

Most of the MS schools I applied to were terminal MS degrees that either don't have a PhD program at all or only have a PhD in a non-statistics degree (i.e., Mathematics or Computational Sciences) because I knew I would have a better chance at funding for a MS at these schools.

I am still waiting to hear back from two schools that I was rejected from their PhD program and offered to be considered for their MS programs but I am assuming these schools would not fund me for a MS degree.

I also worry that if I go to a school as a MS student that has a PhD Statistics program but decide to apply to another PhD program, that other schools may question why I am applying to their school if I am already in a department that theoretically knows me.

I had a Professor tell me recently that doing that raises a red flag to him but I don't know if that is a universal opinion amongst all professors on admissions committees. Has anyone else heard anything to that effect?

[StatsG0d]

I also worry that if I go to a school as a MS student that has a PhD Statistics program but decide to apply to another PhD program, that other schools may question why I am applying to their school if I am already in a department that theoretically knows me.

I had a Professor tell me recently that doing that raises a red flag to him but I don't know if that is a universal opinion amongst all professors on admissions committees. Has anyone else heard anything to that effect?

 

That seems pretty silly to me. If you completed an MS at a respectable school (say UCLA), then I doubt anyone is going to raise an eyebrow if you try to crack the top 10. Now if you were going to UCLA and then tried to go to a similarly ranked or lower ranked program, then that might come off as kind of strange.

[Stats2015]

That seems pretty silly to me. If you completed an MS at a respectable school (say UCLA), then I doubt anyone is going to raise an eyebrow if you try to crack the top 10. Now if you were going to UCLA and then tried to go to a similarly ranked or lower ranked program, then that might come off as kind of strange.

That's what I thought too but he seemed pretty adamant about it but he may have been referring to students not continuing on in their respective programs due to a lack of ability or a personality conflict.

[Ryan123]

I will choose MS if it is for preparing people for PhD program, for example UChicago is a top choice. Other MS school like Yale, UW Madison, Duke, etc are also good choices. However, if it is a professional master, don't go for it. I believe It is essential to choose a good PhD program, because it is 5 year program. The opportunity cost is so high. Going a master also give you more time to make a choice

[Stats2015]

I will choose MS if it is for preparing people for PhD program, for example UChicago is a top choice. Other MS school like Yale, UW Madison, Duke, etc are also good choices. However, if it is a professional master, don't go for it. I believe It is essential to choose a good PhD program, because it is 5 year program. The opportunity cost is so high. Going a master also give you more time to make a choice

The MS programs I applied to aren't professional masters programs, but I don't know that they will offer a ton of variety in coursework either as most of the schools seem to just offer the main theory courses.

I guess I am just questioning whether it would be better to wait a year or two, possibly obtain a Masters degree and see if I can get into a higher ranked PhD program in the future, or whether it would be better in the long run to just jump straight into a lower ranked PhD program now and try to excel through research?

[Ryan123]

If the PhD ranked below 30, I will definitely go for a MS. I think top 20 program is very doable. However, top 30 is just good.

The MS programs I applied to aren't professional masters programs, but I don't know that they will offer a ton of variety in coursework either as most of the schools seem to just offer the main theory courses.

I guess I am just questioning whether it would be better to wait a year or two, possibly obtain a Masters degree and see if I can get into a higher ranked PhD program in the future, or whether it would be better in the long run to just jump straight into a lower ranked PhD program now and try to excel through research?

[TenuousAtBest]

Depends on what you want to do. If you're interested in academic jobs, then it's in your best interest to go to a better ranked school. Otherwise, I'd say take your funded PhD offer, and enjoy your grad experience ~$20,000 richer and with no debt.

 

I really think your best option in to strengthen your profile and reapply if you're really concerned about the schools you got into. How sure are you that you'll be able to transition to PhD? If the GRE is keeping you out, then you'll have the same problem when you need to reapply. 

[Stats2015]

Depends on what you want to do. If you're interested in academic jobs, then it's in your best interest to go to a better ranked school. Otherwise, I'd say take your funded PhD offer, and enjoy your grad experience ~$20,000 richer and with no debt.

I really think your best option in to strengthen your profile and reapply if you're really concerned about the schools you got into. How sure are you that you'll be able to transition to PhD? If the GRE is keeping you out, then you'll have the same problem when you need to reapply.

I've been trying to consider going into industry, but my original plan was to go into academia and that's one of the main reasons I was concerned with a lower ranked PhD program.

The PhD program I was accepted into has a really good placement in industry but only a few go to academia each year and most are to Mathematics departments or unknown Statistics departments.

I guess I don't really know if it's my GRE score that is causing me problems. I just assumed my GRE is my weak point because it's so low. My GPA is 3.8, I've worked on several research projects (two in statistics), and my letters were pretty good from what I can tell.

That was my other concern was if I decided to go the MS route first, there's no guarantee I'd get into a PhD program after either. I just assumed getting an MS degree and trying to raise my GRE score would make me more competitive.

Plus, I've been refining my research interests in computational statistics these past few months and that's not something that I was able to express on my SOP when I applied in Dec/Jan.

[bayessays]

If you get your GRE up to 165ish, it sounds like you would be competitive for programs in the 20-40 USNews range.  Anything above that is really not a guarantee for anyone.  So depending on how the PhD offer is ranked (is it ranked 45, 80, unranked?), you might want to consider it more strongly.  The MS is no guarantee that you will improve your profile (especially if you don't get a near-4.0).  The other option would be to do something else for a year and retake the GRE, since it sounds like the GRE score is really the only thing hindering your application.

[Stats2015]

If you get your GRE up to 165ish, it sounds like you would be competitive for programs in the 20-40 USNews range. Anything above that is really not a guarantee for anyone. So depending on how the PhD offer is ranked (is it ranked 45, 80, unranked?), you might want to consider it more strongly. The MS is no guarantee that you will improve your profile (especially if you don't get a near-4.0). The other option would be to do something else for a year and retake the GRE, since it sounds like the GRE score is really the only thing hindering your application.

I thought about just continuing to take classes and try to do more research for a year and reapply next year. I'm just running out of classes to take at my current university because they don't have a statistics department and don't offer many stats classes. But I know I could always take additional analysis courses here.

The offer I received was from a school that is currently ranked in the 60's by usnews so I don't want to seem greedy because it is a good program and I am grateful for the offer.

I just feel that my GRE score is not reflective of my ability (I just ran out of time during the test) and I would hate to think that something such as that might be holding me back.

I just wanted to get another opinion on the matter to see if people thought it was worth all the trouble to try to get into a slightly higher ranked program or if it was better to focus on the other things that the school has to offer outside of where they're ranked at this point.

[bayessays]

I think a better GRE score alone would significantly help your applications.  I would be willing to bet that you would have significantly better results if you did nothing but raise it to a 164.  The MS will also help if you are one of the best students and if you get the opportunity to do research with a professor at a top department.

 

As for looking at the pros of attending the 60s ranked PhD program, I would seriously look at what you would like to do when you leave.  Not everyone from even top departments gets a job at a PhD-granting statistics department.  If they are placing students in tenure-track academic jobs at universities you have heard of, that's probably a pretty good sign.  Smaller departments may give you more attention.  Some smaller departments have niches they are very good at.  For programs in the 60s, I know that UCSB has good financial people, Oregon State has a strong environmental group, and SMU has placed some people well too.

This sounds like a very tough choice you have to make.  If you are confident you can do much better on the GRE and you think you must attend a better department to achieve your career goals, I think that it makes sense to take a year off or do the MS degree (as long as you do well!).

[wine in coffee cups]

As for looking at the pros of attending the 60s ranked PhD program, I would seriously look at what you would like to do when you leave.  Not everyone from even top departments gets a job at a PhD-granting statistics department.  If they are placing students in tenure-track academic jobs at universities you have heard of, that's probably a pretty good sign.  Smaller departments may give you more attention.  Some smaller departments have niches they are very good at.  For programs in the 60s, I know that UCSB has good financial people, Oregon State has a strong environmental group, and SMU has placed some people well too.

I agree with bayessays, who has made a useful contribution to this discussion by listing examples of statistics programs ranked in the 60s and why you might choose them. Generic questions like "would it be in my best interest to accept the PhD offer I currently have or go for a funded MS program" have one right answer: "it depends". You need to give more info! The specifics of which PhD/funded MS programs you are considering and what research you are interested in are important on the off-chance that someone here is knowledgable about those departments and can offer more tailored advice.

[Stats2015]

I agree with bayessays, who has made a useful contribution to this discussion by listing examples of statistics programs ranked in the 60s and why you might choose them. Generic questions like "would it be in my best interest to accept the PhD offer I currently have or go for a funded MS program" have one right answer: "it depends". You need to give more info! The specifics of which PhD/funded MS programs you are considering and what research you are interested in are important on the off-chance that someone here is knowledgable about those departments and can offer more tailored advice.

I agree that it may be difficult to comment without knowing the specifics. I just wasn't sure what was appropriate as far as disclosure on a forum such as this and I didn't want to seem disrespectful in any way to a school that made me an offer.

I was admitted to the PhD program at UC Riverside and a few MS programs from unranked departments.

I've been narrowing my interests down lately to Data Mining and possibly Machine Learning and my main goal was to work in academia.

I know Riverside has placed people recently in tenure track positions but they have been in mathematics departments from what I have seen.

I am leaning toward accepting the PhD offer at Riverside, but I just wanted to make sure I was making the right decision as I was under the impression that where you go to school can sometimes define your career possibilities in the future.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Stats2015

[bayessays]

I don't think an MS from an unranked program is going to do much to improve your profile, especially if it is a very applied program, considering you seem to already have good grades (assuming your math/stat grades are good).  So, if you do the MS or take some time off and improve your GRE significantly, you would probably improve your results, but I think you're more likely to move in the the 40s than the teens ranking-wise.  Maybe I'm wrong; to be honest, I doubt a top 40 program would have seriously considered you with a 156 GRE, so it's hard to get a good idea of where you stand.  But as you might be able to tell from reading these forums, often times people are rejected from lower ranked schools when they didn't expect it/were accepted to better schools, so there really are no guarantees that things will be better next time around.

Also, what is wrong with being in a math department?  Not everyone (even at top schools) can get a tenure-track job in a PhD-granting statistics department.  You're going to be able to get a decent industry gig with any PhD in statistics, and you know you can get a tenure track job somewhere if you want to be in academia.  Is it worth spending 2 years of your life for a slightly better chance at a position that you *might* possibly want?  And if you really want to be an academic, there are people at UCR doing serious and recent work in theoretical statistics.  Did you visit Riverside and get a feel for the department?  In my experience, the visit day is a good indication of what you can expect. Were the professors interested in working with you?  Did you feel that you would receive a lot of individual attention and have your choice of thesis advisor?  I think you should ask these questions to the school.  Something along the lines of "I'm really excited by your offer and strongly considering attending.  Would I be able to talk to professors about research in machine learning/data mining to learn more?  Also, I am interested in pursuing an academic career: have any alums of your program gotten jobs at X type of school?"  They should be very helpful in answering these questions.  If they aren't, that would be a large concern.

[Stats2015]

I don't think an MS from an unranked program is going to do much to improve your profile, especially if it is a very applied program, considering you seem to already have good grades (assuming your math/stat grades are good). So, if you do the MS or take some time off and improve your GRE significantly, you would probably improve your results, but I think you're more likely to move in the the 40s than the teens ranking-wise. Maybe I'm wrong; to be honest, I doubt a top 40 program would have seriously considered you with a 156 GRE, so it's hard to get a good idea of where you stand. But as you might be able to tell from reading these forums, often times people are rejected from lower ranked schools when they didn't expect it/were accepted to better schools, so there really are no guarantees that things will be better next time around.

Also, what is wrong with being in a math department? Not everyone (even at top schools) can get a tenure-track job in a PhD-granting statistics department. You're going to be able to get a decent industry gig with any PhD in statistics, and you know you can get a tenure track job somewhere if you want to be in academia. Is it worth spending 2 years of your life for a slightly better chance at a position that you *might* possibly want? And if you really want to be an academic, there are people at UCR doing serious and recent work in theoretical statistics. Did you visit Riverside and get a feel for the department? In my experience, the visit day is a good indication of what you can expect. Were the professors interested in working with you? Did you feel that you would receive a lot of individual attention and have your choice of thesis advisor? I think you should ask these questions to the school. Something along the lines of "I'm really excited by your offer and strongly considering attending. Would I be able to talk to professors about research in machine learning/data mining to learn more? Also, I am interested in pursuing an academic career: have any alums of your program gotten jobs at X type of school?" They should be very helpful in answering these questions. If they aren't, that would be a large concern.

I was able to visit the school and I left thinking very highly of the professors and the program. They do have a professor doing data mining (but it's more biostatistics, not sure if that matters) and there is a professor doing theoretical computational statistics and another professor doing high dimensional data methods which both interest me. They have at least one professor with a research lab in the computer science department doing machine learning and collaborations are encouraged, but I don't think machine learning is a specialty in the stats department at all.

I also believe there would be more individual attention as all the faculty seemed very personable and eager to work with students.

The only reason I was concerned at all was because, during the visit, almost every professor we talked to really emphasized their focus/success at placing people in industry and when I asked about academia placement I got the impression that it was possible but not the norm (several professors mentioned approximately a 10% academic placement rate). I later found a list of recent graduate placements and that's when I saw the placements in tenure track math department positions.

I really don't think there's anything wrong with a tenure stats position in a math department. I just really want to focus on research in academia and was worried that I would have a harder time placing in academic positions that would allow me to do research (as opposed to a university where the emphasis would be placed much more highly on teaching, leaving little to no time for research).

I believe there is a way to accomplish what I want at Riverside. But this is a conclusion I am reaching while trying to piece things together and not necessarily a response from them of "yeah, we can place you in the position you want to go into". I just wasn't sure if it was the same at other programs or if what I wanted would be easier to obtain at a slightly higher ranked or different program as this is the only program I visited so I was curious as to the impression that other people had after they visited their programs.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Stats2015

[wine in coffee cups]

Thanks for being willing to share some more information. From what I gather about the UCR program, it is an *applied* statistics PhD with explicit emphasis on finding a substantive field of application as part of your dissertation. My guess is what you're hearing from them talking up their industry placement is because people who are considering applied statistics PhDs are not usually as interested in academic jobs from the get-go. I think you are probably better off going to the applied stat PhD program at UCR than unranked MS programs at even less stat-oriented departments. Also, it's not common, but you could apply to transfer into another statistics PhD program after a year if UCR ends up being too industry-oriented for you (assuming you don't burn bridges when getting recommendations, you do very well in your coursework, and you retake that GRE general).

[Stats2015]

Thanks for being willing to share some more information. From what I gather about the UCR program, it is an *applied* statistics PhD with explicit emphasis on finding a substantive field of application as part of your dissertation. My guess is what you're hearing from them talking up their industry placement is because people who are considering applied statistics PhDs are not usually as interested in academic jobs from the get-go. I think you are probably better off going to the applied stat PhD program at UCR than unranked MS programs at even less stat-oriented departments. Also, it's not common, but you could apply to transfer into another statistics PhD program after a year if UCR ends up being too industry-oriented for you (assuming you don't burn bridges when getting recommendations, you do very well in your coursework, and you retake that GRE general).

Thank you for your reply. I agree about the applied statistics PhD at UCR. I asked a few of the professors there about it and they said that it remains applied mostly in name at this point due to the way the UC system is set up for statistics PhDs (and the fact that you take 12 credits outside stats dept that students often use as part of their dissertation) but that they do tend to attract people who are sometimes looking for an applied emphasis which fits what you said about most wanting industry to begin with.

I considered what you mentioned about being able to transfer if it turned out to not be what I was looking for, but I've heard that transferring departments is really difficult to accomplish, and I want to try and be fully committed if I go to UCR.

I appreciate your advice regarding UCR vs an unranked MS dept. Do you think your advice would change if it were UCR vs a higher ranked MS dept? I'm still waiting to hear back from the MS at Michigan, Illinois, and Utah (not ranked for stats but MS stats degree would come from math dept).

[wine in coffee cups]

I considered what you mentioned about being able to transfer if it turned out to not be what I was looking for, but I've heard that transferring departments is really difficult to accomplish, and I want to try and be fully committed if I go to UCR.

I appreciate your advice regarding UCR vs an unranked MS dept. Do you think your advice would change if it were UCR vs a higher ranked MS dept? I'm still waiting to hear back from the MS at Michigan, Illinois, and Utah (not ranked for stats but MS stats degree would come from math dept).

Transferring departments is difficult, sure. But I don't think it's harder than getting a tenure-track job in a statistics department from a school that has little academic placement, or even getting into a PhD program much better than UCR coming from an unknown MS program. It's just none of the paths you have open to a tenure-track faculty position in a statistics department are straightforward so transferring is an option I would entertain. If you did have offers at MS programs that regularly send graduates into stats PhD programs that have the kind of academic placement you hope for, I would definitely recommend those instead. What about your current MS program offers, do those ever place graduates into good stats PhDs? If they do then I would take those more seriously as an alternative to UCR.

[Stats2015]

Transferring departments is difficult, sure. But I don't think it's harder than getting a tenure-track job in a statistics department from a school that has little academic placement, or even getting into a PhD program much better than UCR coming from an unknown MS program. It's just none of the paths you have open to a tenure-track faculty position in a statistics department are straightforward so transferring is an option I would entertain. If you did have offers at MS programs that regularly send graduates into stats PhD programs that have the kind of academic placement you hope for, I would definitely recommend those instead. What about your current MS program offers, do those ever place graduates into good stats PhDs? If they do then I would take those more seriously as an alternative to UCR.

Thank you for your input. I really appreciate it. The MS programs that I have gotten into so far are:

-Northern Illinois University (NIU)

-South Dakota State University (SDSU)

-University of Idaho

-my undergrad university

I don't think that they really place anyone into academia but I'm not sure exactly. I know both NIU and SDSU have PhD programs but I believe they are in "Computational Sciences and Statistics" and "Statistics and Applied Probability" respectively but I don't know a lot about them outside that.

[Farge]

Thank you for your input. I really appreciate it. The MS programs that I have gotten into so far are:

-Northern Illinois University (NIU)

-South Dakota State University (SDSU)

-University of Idaho

-my undergrad university

I don't think that they really place anyone into academia but I'm not sure exactly. I know both NIU and SDSU have PhD programs but I believe they are in "Computational Sciences and Statistics" and "Statistics and Applied Probability" respectively but I don't know a lot about them outside that.

 

I'm currently an undergraduate in the math program at SDSU. My advisor has been trying to convince me to do stay here for graduate school. They have made some big hires recently, and the departments is definitely growing. First and second year grad students often travel internationally for conferences, which I am told is not common in bigger departments. As an undergraduate, I don't know a ton about our graduate program, but the few graduate students I have spoken to seem to be happy with their choice to study here. However, if you're looking for Machine Learning, you will not find it here.

 

If you have any more questions about the school or department, let me know.

[Stats2015]

I'm currently an undergraduate in the math program at SDSU. My advisor has been trying to convince me to do stay here for graduate school. They have made some big hires recently, and the departments is definitely growing. First and second year grad students often travel internationally for conferences, which I am told is not common in bigger departments. As an undergraduate, I don't know a ton about our graduate program, but the few graduate students I have spoken to seem to be happy with their choice to study here. However, if you're looking for Machine Learning, you will not find it here.

If you have any more questions about the school or department, let me know.

Thank you for the info. I appreciate it. I liked the program from what I've seen. I just wasn't sure if there'd be enough computational statistics related classes and/or opportunities to do research in that realm.