Philosophy & Theology programs?

[kosmo]

Hi all,

I'm asking for a friend. What are some good Philosophy programs in the US/Canada for philosophical theology, Christian thought, etc? So far I've found Notre Dame and Georgetown, and that's about it. Many thanks!!

 

[surlefil]

Has your friend looked at Religious Studies programs?

[FSMITH010]

It depends whether he is looking for a philosophy department that works in philosophical theology or wants a degree in philosophy and theology.

 

At Graduate Theological Union (GTU @ Berkley) you can do a double masters in philosophy and theology.

Biola University has a MA in Philosophy and Religion or something like that, which is essentially a philosophy and theology degree (60+units)

 

An article on programs for studying philosophical theology http://forsclavigera.blogspot.com/2010/09/so-you-want-to-go-to-grad-school_07.html

Edited April 8, 2015 by FSMITH010

[ianfaircloud]

Hi all,

I'm asking for a friend. What are some good Philosophy programs in the US/Canada for philosophical theology, Christian thought, etc? So far I've found Notre Dame and Georgetown, and that's about it. Many thanks!!

 

In my experience, philosophical theology is more often done in religion or theology departments than in philosophy departments, though of course it's common that a professor who specializes in philosophical theology will have a dual appointment in religion and philosophy.

 

Why is that? The truth is that philosophical theology is theology more than it is philosophy, at least on how I view the disciplines. I think the distribution of philosophical theologians among divinity schools and religion departments suggests that others agree with me on this.

 

It's important to understand that most people doing philosophical theology are starting with certain theological assumptions and trying to work those out using philosophical methodology. In my view, the most fundamental questions about the divine are treated as "philosophy of religion." Philosophy of religion is NOT the same as philosophical theology.

 

You don't, for example, see a lot of atheists doing philosophical theology, though you do see a lot of atheists doing philosophy of religion. The easiest way to explain the difference is that philosophical theologians typically start with some basic theological assumptions.

 

For instance, philosophical theologians might try to explain the distinctly Christian (in the historical sense of the word, not in the modern sense!) doctrine of the trinity. Much of what Aquinas and Augustine did is properly called philosophical theology, based on how I see the phrase applied.

 

To be clear, philosophical theologians are doing philosophy. It's just that they're doing philosophy in a different context, and they're not just doing philosophy. Everything I say here ought to be read in light of what I've said in a different thread about how the term "philosopher" is applied within academic philosophy.

 

All this is to say that philosophical theology deserves to be treated not as an area of interest within philosophy but as its own field or perhaps as a subfield of theology or religion. (Theology and religion of course aren't interchangeable terms either.) For this reason, I recommend that someone with an interest in philosophical theology seek a place in a religion or theology program, or perhaps even the graduate school within a divinity school. I would also recommend that this person look for the very few philosophy departments that actually do philosophical theology; find out whether an interest in philosophical theology will be rewarded and encouraged or will be treated as a distraction from the purpose of the degree program.

 

The sort of virtues of a student of philosophy are very similar (if not the same) as those of a student of philosophical theology. There is a similar methodology. There are overlapping questions and debates. There are overlapping thinkers. So it's no surprise that some people think of philosophical theology as a subfield of philosophy. It's a tricky thing, because some legitimate, strong philosophy programs actually do treat philosophical theology as a subfield of philosophy. Saint Louis University and Notre Dame have some philosophers doing philosophical theology. Here's how to explain it: A lot of theologically-minded individuals get excited about philosophy. Sometimes these individuals are attracted (for good reason) to programs where their views -- including their theological views -- will be taken seriously. Some professors are in a similar situation. And the thing is, how a person answers some philosophical questions will affect (or maybe should affect) how that person answers some theological questions. That's part of the reason that philosophical theology is sometimes thought to be a subfield of philosophy.

 

The other sad truth is that some religion and theology departments, in my limited but somewhat informed experience, don't reward the intellectual virtues that are rewarded in philosophy departments. I'm putting this quite mildly. But the effect is this: intellectual theists try to escape these departments by going to philosophy departments, and a department like Saint Louis University's philosophy department gives them the best of both worlds.

 

In summary, I suggest that your friend open herself to the idea of attending a religion or theology program or a graduate program at a divinity school. I recommend against a divinity degree, unless that's her thing, or unless the particular program is a break from the norm. Divinity degree programs, in my experience, too often suffer from what I have very carefully described above. A friend of mine who attended Harvard's divinity program, then an MA in philosophy, tells me that the divinity program was basically terrible (for him, as a person with his interests). That's his view, but based on my experience, it's not surprising.

 

I also suggest that your friend consider the small group of philosophy departments with people doing philosophical theology. The obvious ones are Saint Louis University, Notre Dame, Baylor, Fordham, possibly Boston College, Georgetown, Tulane. I recommend that your friend look at programs that some have labeled "continental" programs. Some people say that these programs are "pluralist." The idea, again, is that students of philosophy who wish to apply philosophical methodology and pursue philosophical questions for the sake of theological answers -- and to be taken seriously while doing these things -- might be better received in these places.

 

Good luck.

Edited April 8, 2015 by ianfaircloud

[jailbreak]

In my experience, philosophical theology is more often done in religion or theology departments than in philosophy departments, though of course it's common that a professor who specializes in philosophical theology will have a dual appointment in religion and philosophy.

 

Why is that? The truth is that philosophical theology is theology more than it is philosophy, at least on how I view the disciplines. I think the distribution of philosophical theologians among divinity schools and religion departments suggests that others agree with me on this.

 

It's important to understand that most people doing philosophical theology are starting with certain theological assumptions and trying to work those out using philosophical methodology. In my view, the most fundamental questions about the divine are treated as "philosophy of religion." Philosophy of religion is NOT the same as philosophical theology.

 

You don't, for example, see a lot of atheists doing philosophical theology, though you do see a lot of atheists doing philosophy of religion. The easiest way to explain the difference is that philosophical theologians typically start with some basic theological assumptions.

 

For instance, philosophical theologians might try to explain the distinctly Christian (in the historical sense of the word, not in the modern sense!) doctrine of the trinity. Much of what Aquinas and Augustine did is properly called philosophical theology, based on how I see the phrase applied.

 

To be clear, philosophical theologians are doing philosophy. It's just that they're doing philosophy in a different context, and they're not just doing philosophy. Everything I say here ought to be read in light of what I've said in a different thread about how the term "philosopher" is applied within academic philosophy.

 

All this is to say that philosophical theology deserves to be treated not as an area of interest within philosophy but as its own field or perhaps as a subfield of theology or religion. (Theology and religion of course aren't interchangeable terms either.) For this reason, I recommend that someone with an interest in philosophical theology seek a place in a religion or theology program, or perhaps even the graduate school within a divinity school. I would also recommend that this person look for the very few philosophy departments that actually do philosophical theology; find out whether an interest in philosophical theology will be rewarded and encouraged or will be treated as a distraction from the purpose of the degree program.

 

The sort of virtues of a student of philosophy are very similar (if not the same) as those of a student of philosophical theology. There is a similar methodology. There are overlapping questions and debates. There are overlapping thinkers. So it's no surprise that some people think of philosophical theology as a subfield of philosophy. It's a tricky thing, because some legitimate, strong philosophy programs actually do treat philosophical theology as a subfield of philosophy. Saint Louis University and Notre Dame have some philosophers doing philosophical theology. Here's how to explain it: A lot of theologically-minded individuals get excited about philosophy. Sometimes these individuals are attracted (for good reason) to programs where their views -- including their theological views -- will be taken seriously. Some professors are in a similar situation. And the thing is, how a person answers some philosophical questions will affect (or maybe should affect) how that person answers some theological questions. That's part of the reason that philosophical theology is sometimes thought to be a subfield of philosophy.

 

The other sad truth is that some religion and theology departments, in my limited but somewhat informed experience, don't reward the intellectual virtues that are rewarded in philosophy departments. I'm putting this quite mildly. But the effect is this: intellectual theists try to escape these departments by going to philosophy departments, and a department like Saint Louis University's philosophy department gives them the best of both worlds.

 

In summary, I suggest that your friend open herself to the idea of attending a religion or theology program or a graduate program at a divinity school. I recommend against a divinity degree, unless that's her thing, or unless the particular program is a break from the norm. Divinity degree programs, in my experience, too often suffer from what I have very carefully described above. A friend of mine who attended Harvard's divinity program, then an MA in philosophy, tells me that the divinity program was basically terrible (for him, as a person with his interests). That's his view, but based on my experience, it's not surprising.

 

I also suggest that your friend consider the small group of philosophy departments with people doing philosophical theology. The obvious ones are Saint Louis University, Notre Dame, Baylor, Fordham, possibly Boston College, Georgetown, Tulane. I recommend that your friend look at programs that some have labeled "continental" programs. Some people say that these programs are "pluralist." The idea, again, is that students of philosophy who wish to apply philosophical methodology and pursue philosophical questions for the sake of theological answers -- and to be taken seriously while doing these things -- might be better received in these places.

 

Good luck.

 

I know that the Divinity School at UChicago offers academic PhDs, has a number of philosophers among its faculty, and includes faculty who are personally atheists and who study a wide range of religions beyond Christianity. I don't know if this would be a good choice for the OP, but I think there are a range of different divinity schools/religion programs, many of which could accommodate interests that are strictly philosophical (not even just in philosophical theology). I have no academic interest in religion, and my advisor recommended I apply to the Chicago Divinity School.

[ianfaircloud]

I know that the Divinity School at UChicago offers academic PhDs, has a number of philosophers among its faculty, and includes faculty who are personally atheists and who study a wide range of religions beyond Christianity. I don't know if this would be a good choice for the OP, but I think there are a range of different divinity schools/religion programs, many of which could accommodate interests that are strictly philosophical (not even just in philosophical theology). I have no academic interest in religion, and my advisor recommended I apply to the Chicago Divinity School.

 

To clarify: Do you think, based on your experience / contact with an advisor, that the divinity school at U Chicago is a good place for someone whose primary interest is philosophy? Or are you suggesting that there are some good philosophers there who might be helpful to someone whose primary interest is philosophical theology? I take it that you're not suggesting that the divinity school is a good place for someone whose interests are philosophical but neither theological nor religious. Is that correct?

[jailbreak]

To clarify: Do you think, based on your experience / contact with an advisor, that the divinity school at U Chicago is a good place for someone whose primary interest is philosophy? Or are you suggesting that there are some good philosophers there who might be helpful to someone whose primary interest is philosophical theology? I take it that you're not suggesting that the divinity school is a good place for someone whose interests are philosophical but neither theological nor religious. Is that correct?

 

I didn't end up applying and never looked very deeply into the program and its requirements. But it's at least possible that it could be a good place for someone whose interests are philosophical, but not theological or religious -- especially if your interests are primarily philosophical, but also broad and interdisciplinary. It seemed to me that it would be a better fit for someone who at least had a secondary interest in religion, which is why I didn't apply. But it does have a number of faculty engaged primarily or secondarily in 20th-century European philosophy, including Ryan Coyne, Francoise Meltzer, Jean-Luc Marion, Arnold Davidson, Sarah Hammerschlag, and probably others. Only two of the ones I've listed are also in the philosophy department, but I know all of them have connections to philosophy students and/or faculty. This information probably isn't relevant to the OP, since they may not have interests in 20th-century European, but the point is just that there's at least one Divinity School where many faculty are not necessarily engaged in the historical tradition of theology in the way you were describing -- taking certain theological assumptions as a given -- and I'm under the impression that Chicago is not the only place where a lot of broad, interdisciplinary work gets done under the banner of "divinity." So this is all to say that it is at least possible to engage fully in philosophy in a religion department or divinity school, and may be the better choice for the OP.

[ianfaircloud]

I didn't end up applying and never looked very deeply into the program and its requirements. But it's at least possible that it could be a good place for someone whose interests are philosophical, but not theological or religious -- especially if your interests are primarily philosophical, but also broad and interdisciplinary. It seemed to me that it would be a better fit for someone who at least had a secondary interest in religion, which is why I didn't apply. But it does have a number of faculty engaged primarily or secondarily in 20th-century European philosophy, including Ryan Coyne, Francoise Meltzer, Jean-Luc Marion, Arnold Davidson, Sarah Hammerschlag, and probably others. Only two of the ones I've listed are also in the philosophy department, but I know all of them have connections to philosophy students and/or faculty. This information probably isn't relevant to the OP, since they may not have interests in 20th-century European, but the point is just that there's at least one Divinity School where many faculty are not necessarily engaged in the historical tradition of theology in the way you were describing -- taking certain theological assumptions as a given -- and I'm under the impression that Chicago is not the only place where a lot of broad, interdisciplinary work gets done under the banner of "divinity." So this is all to say that it is at least possible to engage fully in philosophy in a religion department or divinity school, and may be the better choice for the OP. [EMPHASIS MINE]

 

Jailbreak, this does come as a surprise to me. Your claim, just to be clear, is that a divinity school "could be a good place for someone whose interests are . . . not theological or religious." (I've underlined the relevant text, above.)

 

You really could be right about this, and it does sound like you know far more about University of Chicago's divinity school than I do. It's undoubtedly true that many divinity schools are attractive to people with wide interests. What's new to me is that idea that they could be attractive to people whose interests include neither theology nor religion!

 

Just take a quick glance at this page. For what it's worth, the divinity school certainly advertises itself as a place to study anything attached to religion, i.e. religion and X.

 

But this is NOT to say that I think that you're mistaken in your assessment of the divinity school at University of Chicago. It may be that the divinity school primarily attracts students with interest in religion but regularly admits students without the interest. Maybe those students make the most of it, because they figure that they get access to some great professors, a great university, etc.

 

Of course, I do agree that people can "engage fully," as you put it, in philosophy at some religion departments or divinity schools. I think the question is who would do that and in what circumstances. Kosmo's friend, whose interests include philosophical theology, would probably be a good candidate.

[jailbreak]

Jailbreak, this does come as a surprise to me. Your claim, just to be clear, is that a divinity school "could be a good place for someone whose interests are . . . not theological or religious." (I've underlined the relevant text, above.)

 

You really could be right about this, and it does sound like you know far more about University of Chicago's divinity school than I do. It's undoubtedly true that many divinity schools are attractive to people with wide interests. What's new to me is that idea that they could be attractive to people whose interests include neither theology nor religion!

 

Just take a quick glance at this page. For what it's worth, the divinity school certainly advertises itself as a place to study anything attached to religion, i.e. religion and X.

 

But this is NOT to say that I think that you're mistaken in your assessment of the divinity school at University of Chicago. It may be that the divinity school primarily attracts students with interest in religion but regularly admits students without the interest. Maybe those students make the most of it, because they figure that they get access to some great professors, a great university, etc.

 

Of course, I do agree that people can "engage fully," as you put it, in philosophy at some religion departments or divinity schools. I think the question is who would do that and in what circumstances. Kosmo's friend, whose interests include philosophical theology, would probably be a good candidate.

 

Again, I didn't apply because I have no academic interest in religion, so I guess I agree with you. But according to my advisor, who is in the Divinity School, it would have been a good choice for me. I don't know what else to tell you -- I'm simply passing along the information that was given to me and might be helpful to others. I have no desire to argue this point: I know nothing about other divinity schools, and I can't even tell you if they would have accepted me with my interests as they are. Saying "it's at least possible" is a pretty weak claim, but yes, it does reflect the advice I was given, and it's a jumping-off point for further research.

[menge]

Hi all,

I'm asking for a friend. What are some good Philosophy programs in the US/Canada for philosophical theology, Christian thought, etc? So far I've found Notre Dame and Georgetown, and that's about it. Many thanks!!

Check out the Institute for Christian Studies at Toronto (you specifically mentioned Xian thought, so seems like that would be a good fit. Both Syracuse and Villanova are pretty amenable to these kinds of conversations, and I would also look at DePaul and maybe Loyola. You might also cross-post this to the religion forum, as there are a number of active people over there with these types of interests - as Ian noted above, philosophical theology is typically housed within religion or divinity departments.

[ianfaircloud]

Again, I didn't apply because I have no academic interest in religion, so I guess I agree with you. But according to my advisor, who is in the Divinity School, it would have been a good choice for me. I don't know what else to tell you -- I'm simply passing along the information that was given to me and might be helpful to others. I have no desire to argue this point: I know nothing about other divinity schools, and I can't even tell you if they would have accepted me with my interests as they are. Saying "it's at least possible" is a pretty weak claim, but yes, it does reflect the advice I was given, and it's a jumping-off point for further research.

That's fair enough. I didn't intend a debate. I figured that you could shed some light on this for us, though, since I bet I'm not the only one who is surprised at the idea. Thanks for the suggestion!

[dgswaim]

The graduate school at WUSTL has a lot of really good people that work on philosophical theology and the like. 

[jailbreak]

That's fair enough. I didn't intend a debate. I figured that you could shed some light on this for us, though, since I bet I'm not the only one who is surprised at the idea. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

Yeah, I guess I interpreted the bolding and underlining of my "claim" as a little... lawyerly. I wasn't really claiming anything, just hypothesizing based on the limited advice I've received. Sorry if that wasn't clear. That said, continental philosophy shows up in some unlikely places, given that it's often unwelcome in traditional philosophy departments. So I guess I wasn't that taken aback by the suggestion that I could continue that sort of work in a divinity school, although again, I do think applicants should have *some* interest in religion. And while I'm sure many divinity schools are more traditional, it doesn't seem that strange to me that some divinity schools might interpret the study of religion rather broadly, just as English departments often encompass more approaches and objects of study than traditional analyses of anglophone literatures. It's possible that Chicago is the only one to take an untraditional approach, however. Anyway, sorry for derailing this post!

[ianfaircloud]

Yeah, I guess I interpreted the bolding and underlining of my "claim" as a little... lawyerly. I wasn't really claiming anything, just hypothesizing based on the limited advice I've received. Sorry if that wasn't clear. That said, continental philosophy shows up in some unlikely places, given that it's often unwelcome in traditional philosophy departments. So I guess I wasn't that taken aback by the suggestion that I could continue that sort of work in a divinity school, although again, I do think applicants should have *some* interest in religion. And while I'm sure many divinity schools are more traditional, it doesn't seem that strange to me that some divinity schools might interpret the study of religion rather broadly, just as English departments often encompass more approaches and objects of study than traditional analyses of anglophone literatures. It's possible that Chicago is the only one to take an untraditional approach, however. Anyway, sorry for derailing this post!

 

You didn't derail! I think all this is relevant to someone seriously thinking about where to study philosophical theology! Thanks for the reply. (Edit Also, yes, it was quite lawyerly... Which is code for: You came off like an ass in that post! haha! Fair enough!! This is what first year of law school does to some people!)

Edited April 9, 2015 by ianfaircloud

[kosmo]

Hey thanks so much for all of your replies!!

My friend has a MSc in Theology, and she was originally planning to continue her studies in Theology, until she realised the dim prospects of getting a job (other than in a seminary, which does not have the kind of open, intellectual environment that suits her) in her home country (she's not from the US/UK). As she has a strong undergrad background in philosophy, she was hoping to do something theological in a philosophy department. I realise now (from reading your comments) that there are only a handful of philosophy depts. open to this, and they might not be very competitive on the job market (unless it's ND/Georgetown, of course). At the same time, she's worried about the sort of 'lack of philosophical rigour' at theology depts/divinity schools that some of you have alluded to. 

 

I think she might change her mind about not going into a religion/theology dept or divinity school if the PhD placement records there were not primarily placing people in seminaries, but in academic departments (she's also open to working in the US). Is there any info that might be useful to this end? I have looked at the placement records at some of the religion and theology depts and it seems that they don't place a lot in the academia. 

 

Thanks again!! 

Edited April 10, 2015 by kosmo

[menge]

At this point, I do think you will get a lot more responses over in the religion section. There are a lot of us (self included) in religion departments at various universities that don't necessarily want to work in a seminary setting. A few places to check out would be Yale, Candler/Emory, and Chicago Divinity as was previously mentioned. From what I know of Chicago, there is a lot of room to work from various perspectives and taking classes in other departments is encouraged. Still, as others have pointed out, it's probably best for someone who does have some interests in religion. 

 

Really, it would also be helpful to know about particular AOI's. Much like philosophy admissions, it's important to find a good faculty mentor who is interested in supervising a dissertation. 

[ineedwine]

Boston College has one, it's a Jesuit school but I'm not sure how that plays into the Philosophy and Theology program. 

[rlg]

Hi all,

I'm asking for a friend. What are some good Philosophy programs in the US/Canada for philosophical theology, Christian thought, etc? So far I've found Notre Dame and Georgetown, and that's about it. Many thanks!!

 

As others have said, it depends on what your friend is looking for. She is right to be worried about philosophical rigor in religion/theology programs. But at any of the religious studies and theology programs I'll discuss below, she will be able to find folks who have rigorous philosophical minds. If s/he is looking for programs in Philosophical Theology -- i.e., (Christian) theology done in a philosophical mode (in distinction with systematic and historical theology, although ultimately all theology involves all three 'modes'), then she is best off looking at Religious Studies and Theology programs. Of those, where to go depends on her particular interests. UChicago is. right now, probably the best place to do a certain kind (apophatic/post-metaphysical and postmodern theology), with Jean-Luc Marion and Kevin Hector (though Hector is not a full professor yet). Marion is particularly good on 20th century continental thought (Heidegger and Husserl). Yale's philosophical theologians (John Hare and John Pittard) are more analytically oriented, but both are quite sharp. Hare is also very good on Kant and Kierkegaard. Notre Dame doesn't have a philosophical theology concentration, but some of their systematicians are very sharp philosophically (like Cyril O'Regan on Hegel) and some of their moral theologians are also very good philosophically (Porter is familiar with analytic moral philosophy in addition to medieval Christian philosophy; McKenny knows Kant and the post-Kantians quite well; Neil Arner, who is not yet a full professor, is also very sharp on contemporary analytic moral philosophy). It must be said, however, that it is increasingly difficult to get jobs in Philosophical Theology or Philosophy of Religion (POR) as such in Religious Studies and Theology departments. It's a weird state of affairs in the market.

 

If your friend is instead interested in Philosophy of Religion practiced in a less confessional mode, then a POR program in Philosophy would be best. As others have mentioned, Notre Dame (Robert Audi and Mike Rea are both very good philosophers, even though Audi's focus is not POR), Purdue I know less about, but seems to be highly reputed. Saint Louis University is also a first-rate POR department; Eleonore Stump has done and continues to do good work, especially on Aquinas). Even though Cornell is not known for POR, the very fact that Scott MacDonald (medieval Christian philosophy) is there makes it worth at least applying to. Finally, Rutgers benefits greatly from the presence of Bob and Marilyn McCord Adams, but others will be more knowledgeable than I on whether they are slated to be at Rutgers for much longer, or whether their stay is more touch-and-go. Given their ages, I would expect the latter, but that's merely conjecture on my part.

 

As for placement, graduates from religious studies programs are in general less likely to be 'pigeon-holed' into seminaries/divinity schools than graduates from theology programs. Of course, you're most likely to avoid a seminary-placement if you graduate from a philosophy program. But since Yale's philosophical theology concentration is a subset of the Religious Studies program, she might be optimistic in applying there.

 

Finally, if her interests in POR are less on responding to problems internal to theologies and more about questions like "what is a religion?" studied in a philosophical mode, then probably the best place for her is actually Brown's PhD program in Religious Studies. It is not confessional at all, and their subprogram in Religion and Critical Thought is one of the best in the program on 'phenomenology of religion' type inquiry. Stephen Bush has a recently published book that's meant to be first-rate. Tal Lewis and Mark Cladis are both doing work on the shape of religion in public life. Brown also has a program that allows PhD students in any program to read for a Master's in an ancillary department. So your friend might also consider applying to that program and trying for a Master's in philosophy to go along with her PhD in Religious Studies.

 

I hope this is helpful.

Edited May 7, 2015 by rlg

[rlg]

One final thing I forgot to mention about placement: most religious studies programs that are worth their salt publish placement data. I would be wary, however, of thinking that 'seminary' is antithetical to 'academia.' Many seminaries (and divinity schools) are quite academic in nature. That is to say, while the primary purpose of some seminaries is vocational, at many seminaries you also have people doing work that is also 'research-oriented.' So, that  a person finds a job at a seminary doesn't mean that they are out of the academy. It is very likely that they are still writing and publishing academic work in addition to their teaching requirements (which are not vocational, if their background is not in vocational work), going to conferences and things, and in most recognizable senses, a part of the academy.

[kosmo]

Wow, this is super helpful! Thank you so much rig. I'll ask my friend to read what you wrote up there Thanks again!!!