Language Preparation for PhD

[nostimos]

I apologize for joining the "hijacking" party.

I am beginning an M. Div. program at a small, denominational seminary in the fall. I took two years of NT Greek and one of Biblical Hebrew in my undergrad program. I plan on pursuing a PhD in biblical studies (not sure which field yet) after my master's work is completed and would like to get a jump on research languages. The seminary I'm attending offers gobs of courses in exegesis and topics like intertestamental literature (etc.), but doesn't offer any courses in non-biblical languages.

Are there any institutions that offer online courses in French and/or German that would be effective in preparing me for research in the world of biblical studies? I am not familiar with many of the summer language school options, but I am unable to relocate during the summer for more than a couple weeks, which would prohibit me from attending most of them, I'd assume.

I believe I could obtain some level of competency through independent study, but I prefer to learn with the deadlines and motivation that a course provides.

[Panera]

Welcome all you thread hijackers!     Actually, all the language info is helpful no matter the area of concentration.  I have a general question to add to the discussion.  Is there a standardized test for reading/translation proficiency.  I know Yale administers an exam out of their language department that I assume I could take.  Does it matter which test or where I take the test.  I assume these are all just PhD application credentials items at the end of the day so does one particular test carry weight more?  Can the amount of time that has passed since passing a proficiency exam come into play?  Will an exam within say two years of filling out applications suffice?

Exercising thread starters right and bumping my earlier question! 

[Thorongil]

I'll probably have to ask whoever my adviser turns out to be, but what if one is unsure of what one's "primary research area" is going to be? What if one's research interests straddle many different languages? For example, what if I'm comparing a Buddhist text with a Christian text by means of a German philosopher's philosophy of religion? Depending on the Buddhist text, it could be Pali, Sanskrit, Tibetan, Chinese, or Japanese. The Christian text would probably be in Latin. And the German philosopher's text would be in German. What if there's some really great scholarly articles in French and Italian that have to do with my research as well? Would I learn them too? The language proliferation seems absurd and unnecessary considering what people in this thread say that languages are used for. It's a case of "well, we, your esteemed professors, had to learn all this superfluous stuff when we did PhDs, so you do too!" 

 

Once again, "reading proficiency" sounds an awful lot like code for "fluency." If I can read somebody like Kant in the original German or an article on him in the same language, then I'm far, far beyond the level of ordering a sandwich on a Munich street corner. I mean, come on. It would take years for someone of my ability to get to that level and yet people here act like all one has to do is just pick up a book, read it in one's spare time, and voila, complete mastery. 

 

Here's a scenario: what if I just take Latin as one of my electives at the MA level? I take it all two years. Would that be enough to make me "proficient?" Latin is, of course, by and large, a reading language and it would fit at least one aspect of my interests. Would that be enough to get into a PhD program in religion? 

Edited April 19, 2015 by Thorongil

[Isaac32]

Very helpful post!

What do you think is the minimum number of years of study for your primary language prior to starting a phd?

Well, I can tell you that a fellow MA student was accepted to Emory and Harvard PhDs with little language training, but good GRE scores. She will have to learn French and German from the beginning.

[Isaac32]

Are there any institutions that offer online courses in French and/or German that would be effective in preparing me for research in the world of biblical studies? I am not familiar with many of the summer language school options, but I am unable to relocate during the summer for more than a couple weeks, which would prohibit me from attending most of them, I'd assume.

Students at PTSem can take any of the language courses offered by Princeton University, as long as the language is relevant to their studies, and I am sure this is the case at other theological schools that are affiliated with a university, such as Harvard Divinity, Yale Divinity, Cadler.

[Abdelazar]

I'll probably have to ask whoever my adviser turns out to be, but what if one is unsure of what one's "primary research area" is going to be? What if one's research interests straddle many different languages? For example, what if I'm comparing a Buddhist text with a Christian text by means of a German philosopher's philosophy of religion? Depending on the Buddhist text, it could be Pali, Sanskrit, Tibetan, Chinese, or Japanese. The Christian text would probably be in Latin. And the German philosopher's text would be in German. What if there's some really great scholarly articles in French and Italian that have to do with my research as well? Would I learn them too? The language proliferation seems absurd and unnecessary considering what people in this thread say that languages are used for. It's a case of "well, we, your esteemed professors, had to learn all this superfluous stuff when we did PhDs, so you do too!" 

 

Once again, "reading proficiency" sounds an awful lot like code for "fluency." If I can read somebody like Kant in the original German or an article on him in the same language, then I'm far, far beyond the level of ordering a sandwich on a Munich street corner. I mean, come on. It would take years for someone of my ability to get to that level and yet people here act like all one has to do is just pick up a book, read it in one's spare time, and voila, complete mastery. 

 

Here's a scenario: what if I just take Latin as one of my electives at the MA level? I take it all two years. Would that be enough to make me "proficient?" Latin is, of course, by and large, a reading language and it would fit at least one aspect of my interests. Would that be enough to get into a PhD program in religion? 

 

It's true that if you're doing religious studies, and particularly comparative work, the languages you might need or use are less defined by the field (as in biblical and theological studies) and more defined by your particular interest. But if you don't have a particular research focus (at least a provisional one), you probably aren't ready to apply to PhD programs. But it's safe to say that you'll need German and French to read scholarly work. Whether you need Latin, Pali, Sanskrit, Chinese, Japanese, or something else depends on what you hope to research.

 

At least for the modern scholarly languages (i.e. German and French), you should be able to acquire facility with them that will be enough to pass an exam (or work your way through a scholarly article with a dictionary) with a semester or two of study. The "German for Reading" or "French for Reading" courses are usually a semester or two long. Learning to read scholarly articles is not a different "level" of learning per se, it's just a different set of vocabulary. Think about your knowledge of the English language. You know the conventions and vocabulary of English that is specific to religious studies, but most of us are probably much less familiar with the conventions and vocabulary of gastronomy, engineering, or cardiology. As others have said, taking a conversational class may help and be a better method of learning but when it comes to getting things done and setting priorities, you're going to spend a significant amount of time in a conversational German class learning how to ask for directions or order coffee and you probably won't learn much of the vocabulary that is specific to religious studies. I should also mention that the Anki flashcard software has Theological French and Theological German "decks" with vocabulary that is relevant to theology. Just use the search here: https://ankiweb.net/shared/decks/

 

My professor has told a story about one of the top American scholars in the field of Semitic languages. He was traveling in Israel and someone stopped him to ask him a question in modern Hebrew about the date and time of some particular event. He couldn't think of the correct modern Hebrew expression off the top of his head, so in trying to explain he used the biblical expression for a woman's "time of her menstrual impurity"!

[Thorongil]

But if you don't have a particular research focus (at least a provisional one), you probably aren't ready to apply to PhD programs.

 

That's why I never applied to PhD programs and am doing an MA right now. A PhD is over two and a half years away, a dissertation even longer than that. My question is about what I should be doing right now while doing an MA. So is my Latin scenario a good one? I'm only concerned about what I will need to get into a typical PhD program. I assume I'll be able to take classes on other languages I may need once I'm accepted to a PhD program, but for right now, I'd like to know what is essential at the MA level. 

Edited April 19, 2015 by Thorongil

[sacklunch]

I'll probably have to ask whoever my adviser turns out to be, but what if one is unsure of what one's "primary research area" is going to be? What if one's research interests straddle many different languages? For example, what if I'm comparing a Buddhist text with a Christian text by means of a German philosopher's philosophy of religion? Depending on the Buddhist text, it could be Pali, Sanskrit, Tibetan, Chinese, or Japanese. The Christian text would probably be in Latin. And the German philosopher's text would be in German. What if there's some really great scholarly articles in French and Italian that have to do with my research as well? Would I learn them too? The language proliferation seems absurd and unnecessary considering what people in this thread say that languages are used for. It's a case of "well, we, your esteemed professors, had to learn all this superfluous stuff when we did PhDs, so you do too!" 

 

Once again, "reading proficiency" sounds an awful lot like code for "fluency." If I can read somebody like Kant in the original German or an article on him in the same language, then I'm far, far beyond the level of ordering a sandwich on a Munich street corner. I mean, come on. It would take years for someone of my ability to get to that level and yet people here act like all one has to do is just pick up a book, read it in one's spare time, and voila, complete mastery. 

 

Here's a scenario: what if I just take Latin as one of my electives at the MA level? I take it all two years. Would that be enough to make me "proficient?" Latin is, of course, by and large, a reading language and it would fit at least one aspect of my interests. Would that be enough to get into a PhD program in religion? 

 

Two years of a language is generally considered "enough" to get you into a PhD program. But this all varies on one's (sub)field. If you are in classics, for example, two years of Greek and Latin is unlikely to cut it. But by in large classics depts are doing a lot more philology than people in religion (excluding perhaps NELC depts). 

 

if you want to work on Buddhist/Christian/whatever texts, then your application will be reviewed on the basis that you have/should have a foundation in the languages required for X research. There are exceptions, of course, but if you need to spend 4 years of your PhD gaining languages you will likely not be accepted.

 

I've said it over and over on here. Languages are absolutely essential for securing a PhD spot. This is what I have been told by every single professor in my area (late antiquity) and related fields (Second Temple and so on). All we have is anecdotal evidence, but I believe this is what got me into some great programs (and was told this by professors after getting in). If you are in an M* and you are planning on applying to anything ancient/medieval and you are deciding between a 'content' course in translation vs a primary language (whether intro, intermediate, or advanced), take the language course. You can easily read a dozen books on a subject (in English) to 'catch up'; the languages simply cannot be learned over one or two years. If you are not in an ancient/medieval field, disregard my comments. 

[Thorongil]

Well, my interest is in Schopenhauer's philosophy and its relation to Vedantic philosophy, Buddhism, and Christian mysticism and negative theology (and of these things with each other). I'm also interested in asceticism and pessimism as found in these traditions. So I know the zip code but not the street address of what I would do a dissertation on and can imagine the title would read like "Schopenhauer and X," where X would be something to do with one of those aforementioned things, like another author. Based on this, is it safe to say I should be able to read German (because of Schopenhauer) and then one other language that fits with X (which might be Sanskrit or Latin, for example)? If so, because I am beginning an MA program in religious studies in the fall, which of these languages should I focus on? German or X (once I decide what that is)? 

 

I was thinking I might do Latin, should I decide to make X be Christian mysiticsm/negative theology, which I am leaning towards, and then try to buff up on German again once I'm in a PhD program. How long does it take to get reading proficiency in a language? 

Edited April 19, 2015 by Thorongil

[sacklunch]

Your interests will change, sometimes substantially so. Take the courses that interest you and be open to changing directions. I cannot speak to the language prep needed for those interests. Maybe someone else can chime in. You usually need a decent amount of German and/or another modern research language (often French). Many people take a course titled something like "German for Reading." Many schools have similar courses for French. 

 

Where are you going in the fall? 

[Thorongil]

Would those courses be for beginners? And do people take those courses at the MA level or the PhD level? I've taken the equivalent of two years of German as an undergrad but I've only retained and was taught just basic conversational German, not to mention the fact that I'm not a good language learner to begin with. I've always struggled with learning them.

 

I'm going to WMU. I haven't been assigned an adviser yet. 

 

Edit: Put it this way, would I be fine applying to PhD programs with just my two years of undergrad German? Or should I take something (be it German, Latin, or w/e) while getting an MA?

Edited April 19, 2015 by Thorongil

[sacklunch]

I imagine two years of German will serve you quite well. Many successful PhD applicants have far less. If the school has a "German for Reading" course you should still take it if you can. Those courses are almost always for graduate students (many M* will take them for credit, while PhD students often audit them to keep up their German/French/whatever).

As for Latin and w/e, talk to someone in your area of interest. Current PhD students in that area would be most ideal as they have the most recent insight on what it takes to get into a PhD program. When you arrive at WMU you will (I would think) be assigned an adviser in your area of interest. Let them know of your interests and I imagine they will direct you to the courses you should be taking. A fair bit of warning though. Ask around far and wide and do not take any single person's advice as truth. Opinions vary widely on what a student should or should not be doing at the M* level. 

[marXian]

If you have two years of undergrad German, you'll be fine applying. You'll probably try to get a grant to go to German for a couple months in one of your first summers of a PhD to really hone your German skills, but two years of undergrad German is more than adequate to pass a German reading proficiency exam.

 

The more difficult languages (e.g. Latin) are the sorts of things that will impress an adcom more than German. If you expect to need Latin for your PhD, you definitely should start that during your MA since you'll likely be applying against people who maybe took four years in undergrad plus additional training in a master's program.

 

If you can avoid having to take language courses during your PhD coursework (definitely not uncommon for people doing philosophy/theology stuff), you'll be much better off. Language course work almost never counts as courses toward your degree, so you end up taking a fourth course on top of your three seminars. It's just a lot of extra work that, if it can be avoided, absolutely should.

[menge]

Would those courses be for beginners? And do people take those courses at the MA level or the PhD level? I've taken the equivalent of two years of German as an undergrad but I've only retained and was taught just basic conversational German, not to mention the fact that I'm not a good language learner to begin with. I've always struggled with learning them.

 

I'm going to WMU. I haven't been assigned an adviser yet. 

 

Edit: Put it this way, would I be fine applying to PhD programs with just my two years of undergrad German? Or should I take something (be it German, Latin, or w/e) while getting an MA?

I'll also be going to WMU in the fall (as you already know) - I inquired about language courses and was told they won't count towards degree credit. I'm planning on taking some summer language courses. It may be still be worth asking though when you find out who your advisor is. 

[Thorongil]

Very helpful replies. Thanks all. 

[Panera]

I am currently going through private tutoring with the Goethe Institute and would like to take a German Translation Exam as soon as I am complete in August. Does anyone know where I could take this exam where I would not have to be a student?  I am starting Yale Divinity in the fall but I believe they only administer the exam in December and April.  I would like to take it as soon as I finish my book/tutoring program in August. 

[theophany]

I am currently going through private tutoring with the Goethe Institute and would like to take a German Translation Exam as soon as I am complete in August. Does anyone know where I could take this exam where I would not have to be a student?  I am starting Yale Divinity in the fall but I believe they only administer the exam in December and April.  I would like to take it as soon as I finish my book/tutoring program in August. 

 

There's not a general German translation exam you can take, as if it were the GRE. Each school is going to have different standards, each one is going to have their own test or series of requirements. Those tests are meant for those particular schools and their particular requirements, so most of the time they don't transfer. If you were to stay at Yale for PhD, an exam taken there would likely carry over, but if you go somewhere else, odds are they're going to want you to take their test—especially if all you had was a summer study. I was a French major as an undergraduate, and still had to take the test to qualify in French. 

Basically, what you can do now is list on your PhD applications that you had German for whatever amount of time in semesters. Make sure you have a transcript, or a proof of enrollment, or certificate of completion, or whatever, to include. As far as testing goes, I wouldn't advise you to take the Yale test in advance, as if it would help you. They would probably be confused as to why a masters student at YDS was trying to take it. You're just going to have to keep your German up and wait until if/when you're in a PhD program to take the test your school administers.

Edited May 26, 2015 by theophany

[sacklunch]

I am currently going through private tutoring with the Goethe Institute and would like to take a German Translation Exam as soon as I am complete in August. Does anyone know where I could take this exam where I would not have to be a student?  I am starting Yale Divinity in the fall but I believe they only administer the exam in December and April.  I would like to take it as soon as I finish my book/tutoring program in August. 

 

Just call them and ask. Generally whoever administers the language exam has the authority to approve such coursework/background as sufficient (instead of taking the exam). Though every department varies. Most departments will not take an exam passed in a different department. Just call/email them and ask. 

[Panera]

Taking a translation exam as soon as I complete my studies this summer if nothing else would be a measure of competency and the effectiveness of my preparation.  If I am understanding you correctly, the standards for each PhD program are different and could be subjective given the varying background that students have in languages.  Would you suggest taking or possibly auditing a German for Reading course to keep my skills current?

 

Thanks

[marXian]

Taking a translation exam as soon as I complete my studies this summer if nothing else would be a measure of competency and the effectiveness of my preparation.  If I am understanding you correctly, the standards for each PhD program are different and could be subjective given the varying background that students have in languages.  Would you suggest taking or possibly auditing a German for Reading course to keep my skills current?

 

Thanks

 

Yes, unfortunately, the standards for proving language proficiency sometimes differ department to department within the same institution (e.g. the history department at my school administers all its own language exams except for Latin, whereas students in my department have to register for an exam administered at a different but nearby university and travel over there to take our reading exams). Unfortunately, it may be that a program you decide to attend for your PhD may only accept their own language reading exam.

 

I'd recommend something like Duolingo to keep up on grammatical skills, but honestly just reading Der Spiegel or Der Standard online every day is going to not only maintain but improve your reading skills. When I started doing that, I began with reading articles on American politics so I could have some idea of what was going on in the article. It can be slow going at first, but the more you do it, the less you find yourself going to the dictionary for help. A reading course the summer or term before you plan to take the exam will certainly help, but if you have a high beginner or intermediate level of proficiency in German, you shouldn't need to put in a ton of work in order to pass a proficiency exam as long as you do something to keep your mind connected to German between the end of your program and when you take the test--which sounds like it could be a while.

 

It's also a good idea to look into the various DAAD Stipendium programs that can send you to Germany for 4-8 weeks for intensive language training. Those awards are pretty competitive, so I'm not sure how successful MA students are, but doing one of those the summer before you plan to take the proficiency exam once you're in a PhD program is going to make passing the exam really easy.

[theophany]

Taking a translation exam as soon as I complete my studies this summer if nothing else would be a measure of competency and the effectiveness of my preparation.  If I am understanding you correctly, the standards for each PhD program are different and could be subjective given the varying background that students have in languages.  Would you suggest taking or possibly auditing a German for Reading course to keep my skills current?

 

Thanks

 

The only difficulty with taking it now is that it measures where you are now—at least 2 years before you enter a PhD program. That isn't an effective measure for years in the future for a different institution with different requirements. What an adcom is going to care about is that you had a summer of instruction from the Goethe Institute, and that's what there will be space on an application for. But you'll get to list that, which is important.

As for taking German for Reading, you shouldn't worry with it at Yale. It will just be repetition of what you're doing now, and more to the point, it would be a major hassle. As best I can remember, the language departments at Yale don't allow auditors in language instruction classes (similar to most places). And I know for certain that German for Reading does not count as credit towards degree, not even as an elective, at YDS.

 

I'll just echo marXian: read Der Spiegel. That's how I've kept up my languages, even just occasionally going through an article or two to jog my mind.